Heavies problem

[teh_spamerer]

Heavies, by goodoldganon's definition, are characters with mainly slow but strong moves with a few fast punishing ones. I don't think it's possible for heavies to be really good in Smash without being extremely gay. Two things can possibly be done to make them better. One is to speed up a heavy's slow moves and lower damage/knockback on them so that they can be used more without being broken. However, then this character is no longer a heavy by the previous definition. For the record, I'm not against buffing them like that but I'm just pointing out that it's a side effect of doing so.

The other option is to make their punishing moves better, which would make them still fit the definition. This is where a problem arises. For a heavy to high/top tier, those few punishing moves would have to be good enough to compensate for the rest of their moveset being lackluster in neutral. A few moves would have to be good enough to deal with other characters' entire movesets. If those few moves could, they would have to be pretty ridiculous in terms of hitbox, speed, knockback, ability to combo off of, and/or do high damage. This is kind of difficult to conceptually imagine, so let's use Melee Bowser as an example. His up b is an extremely good punishing move yet he is still bottom tier because he can be camped with projectiles and his up b can be outspaced. The only ways I can think of to make up b better are to make it lead to death combos, to make the hitbox bigger so it is very difficult to outspace, buff the damage so it's stupidly high, or make so it's completely safe shielded. If the first way is chosen, isn't it a little ridiculous that a move with a respectable hitbox that comes out really fast leads to a character dying? 4 mistakes lead to someone losing a match. The same could be said about Jiggs and rest but she has to combo into it and if it misses she could be looking at losing her stock(Ganon uptilt, Fox lasers-->upsmash, etc.) in exchange. The second option would make it so Bowser could up B almost anything out of shield, making it impossible to approach him. The third way would mean he would have to do really high damage off of up b(40-50? possibly more?) The fourth way would mean just run around spam up b all day with nothing to worry about. Regardless of how it's buffed, he would be winning at high level play by shieldcamping and mindlessly abusing(and it would be mindless if it gets buffed to the point that he's top tier) a broken up b. I can't imagine anyone intelligent wanting to play a game with such a one dimensional strategy for one of the best characters in the game.

Of course, the buffs could always be smaller than the ones I suggested for his up b. But then he wouldn't be top/high tier material. If I made a mistake anywhere in my logic, feel free to correct me.

 

[The Cape]

DK as we know is solid, and I had a few ideas for Bowser and DDD. The chars are solid, but just need a bit more help:

DDD: Big, fat, slow, no real solid combos or kill setups
Suggestions: Better minion tosses (no pickup, more damage, better angles, less winddown, more gordos and doos); Make uair connect better (like dair); make D throw more useful

Bowser: Big, fat, slow, no real solid combos or kill setups
Suggestions: Give him more base power on all his moves with a wee bit less growth, and he should do more damage overall. This makes him more of a super tank as he can keep people off him better. Make the moves meatier too (longer duration hitboxes) without increasing the total time that the move is out. Also, Bowser dont care 2.0! (Less damage, no KB changes)

Basically Bowser should tank well, DDD minions are unique and could be more useful and his throws are where he gets most of his damage. Giving him a more useful D throw gives him more tech chase options.

Bowser should have the meaty moves and be the hardest char in the game to kill (staminawise). Meaty moves beat out thrown out sidesteps and ADes, and his Bowser dont care 2.0 would allow him to take less damage than everyone else while keeping the same KB

 

[CT Chia]

DK is solid because he has something the other heavies don't (well they do but not as useful) is that his grabs can lead to death combos, or awesome finishers.

With wrongful DI Bowser can do the same with uthrow to uair. Let's also play around with what makes Bowser special from the other heavies (as DK is different from his cargo through). We could buff the upB a little as spam was suggesting, but Bowser also has 2 main things most characters don't have: The firebreath and overB claw. Perhaps if we can make the life of firebreath longer (it doesn't expire as fast) and possibly slightly more damage, this could be a great way to rack up damage for his bigger attacks. I also wouldn't find this broken either (unlike the broken ailments Spam said about the possible buffs for upB) as it can be beaten by other projectiles, waiting till it expires, or go around it. Bowser's overB is like Ganon's where it goes through shield, but obviously it's properties are plenty different. Give it more combo potential into his bigger attacks and I think we'll start to have a solid character.

Notice how all of the heavies have something special. Cape said it for DDD, the minions. There have been countless ways mentioned to buff his minion abilities dating back to the Workshop DDD Thread, but none of the codes have been made - why? If I'm not mistaken this is what was proposed:
-Have up to 3 minions on the stage at once
-Not able to pick them up with the A button
Then
-Remove gordos (part of the whole luck based discussion) and up the ratio of doos to dees
Or
-Implement an order system like he throws in order
Dee Dee Doo Dee Doo Dee Gordo Repeat
And in that situation probably tone the knockback of Gordos down just a tad

However unlike Cape said with no setups and uair connecting - uair connects reasonably well out of uthrow, and he has a lot of tech chase options from dthrow leading to strong attacks. Not to mention DDD also has his special ability of the swallowcide. After minion buffs I think he will be fine.

 

[JCaesar]

I'm glad we're trying to come up with more creative solutions than just blanket damage buffs or something like that.

DK is good not only because of his ridiculous grab combos, but also because his moveset is just fast and overpowering. Many of his moves (jab, utilt, side-B, fair, dair, uair, cargo uthrow, etc) put his opponent in a really good position for him to follow up with a power move. This is something that the other heavies are lacking for the most part.

I don't think DDD needs much, since he has plenty of quick and powerful moves. He's just lacking in a few key areas. His recovery sucks balls, he doesn't really have any good GTFO moves (jab was sped up but it's still meh), and his ftilt and fsmash are pretty garbage.

So, some possible DDD suggestions:
- Some kind of minion buff, since we all seem to agree on that.
- Less lag when he hits the ground after a canceled up-B. It's super-punishable and one of his biggest weaknesses imo.
- Make his ftilt pop straight up with more hitstun so it combos into fair.
- Wider/stronger groundpound for his fsmash (if that's possible?). I dunno, but it might make it actually worth using sometimes.
- Less winddown on dtilt, to make it a good GTFO move.

All in all though, I don't think DDD needs much.

Bowser and Ganon are the ones who could really use the help. I like all of Cape's ideas for Bowser.

 

[The Cape]

What I meant by the uair for DDD Chibo was the fact that move should link each of its hits into the final hit, the move is too easy to smash DI out of. Thats what I meant.

Caesar has some good ideas for DDD as well and I like the claw for Bowser leading to fair or uair (DI dependant) but we cant edit it right now. Giza and I tried

We can make the ground pound for DDD F smash go out further and then give it a better angle, that would be cool.

And what I mean by D throw tech chases is to either speed up the lag, or keep the peope closer to DDD.

 

[shanus]

Bowser less winddown on uthrow.Uthrow uair rapeee

 

[leafgreen386]

Bowser less winddown on uthrow.Uthrow uair rapeee

And how long have I been saying to give him less winddown on uthrow and/or upB so he can combo off of it/them?

 

[The Cape]

Less winddown on all his throws. His throw game is good, and this makes them all a bit more useful.

 

[Blank Mauser]

In my application, this was my idea for Bowser.

Bowser: The moves I would cut noticeable landing lag on are Uair, Side-B, Neutral-b, and Up-B. With uair I would have it kill better at the start of the move, but if you hit with the backside of it there would be a sweetspot that doesn't have much knockback and combos instead. On the ground this could combo into a sped up Usmash(I'll get to it later) at lower percents or even a grab, at higher percents it would most likely give Bowser a fair or bair. Neutral-B canceling on landing could give Bowser some nice grab setups as well.

For fortress, along with the lag cancel on landing I would let him be able to fast fall it after a certain amount of time. Not soon enough he could repeat it at DJC speed though. To compliment this, I'd also make it so he doesn't go into freefall after it. He could slide off edges and platforms, maybe even combo out of fortress if he lands. Another thing I would do is increase the hitbox slightly and have the center of the move be a sweetspot that kills off the top at decent percentage.

Utilt could be a little faster, as the sped up Utilt covers his blind spots well, but not too fast. What I would do is speed up Usmash instead. While Utilt combos better, Usmash comes out faster and has cool down. Another thing I would do is make the ground hit that Bowser does when he lands for Usmash have a pitfall effect. On-stage, this could be trouble for shielding opponents, and off-stage it could spike. Both these moves help him against characters with aerial momentum. Dtilt could also be sped up to help him kill. I kinda want Ftilt to stun people if it hits straight in the face, but I don't think brawl has any headshot detectors. =P

Instead of cutting the lag on dair, I'd speed up the entire move. Fast enough to autocancel and get another aerial off afterwards. Fair could use a slight damage buff and send at a lower angle. Other moves that could be deserving of more damage would be his jabs and grab pummels. His Fthrow could plop people upwards like his Side-B used to do in Melee.

Really I didn't like the thick skin code. At first I thought it was a good idea, but one of my friends is a Bowser main and as I watched more and more replays I realized "Why are all my combos on Bowser so long?" The thick skin code only helps him get combo'd longer, I'd rather up his survivability with better recovery/weight.

I really don't think we have to go to extremes to make heavies viable. I mean, what a move lacks in speed it can make up for in range and versatility. My ideas may be a bit excessive, but I reach more for the multi-use aspect rather then just range.

For D3, I really liked a change Cape did with making his Dsmash come out faster and lowering its knockback too I believe. It has great range for a gtfo move, and techchases well too.

For his Ftilt, he has 4 hitboxes to work with so I was thinking the 2nd hitbox (hammer top) could set up for techchase while the other parts set up for Bair at the least, and Fair maybe. Spacing the move right would allow for longer more damage-racking combos while the rest of the hitbox can lead to a potential kill at the right percents.

An old idea from a while back was to give D3's groundpound hitbox for his Fsmash the pitfall effect like DK's side-B. Means they can't shield it and could spike off the ledge. Would be pretty hard to apply when people catch on though.

I also agree with buffing Bowsers throws.

 

[GHNeko]

Disjoint the move of heavies, give them aerial and ground GTFO moves (moves that come out on like frame 1-3) if they dont already have it. Move their hitboxes further away from their hurtboxes as well.

If its possible, shrink the heavies by 1-5% and enlarge their hitboxes by 5-10% :V

 

[Team Giza]

I still believe the best way to buff Bowser is by using a new code to add armor to some of his moves so jabs and weak tilts can't stop him. This would be a very difficult code to make though.
---
Dedede is an interesting case. I believe has more offensive momentum than the other heavies but its not enough to make up for all his problems. I think the solution to this is to buff his ability to get follow ups.

1. Downsmash redesign: Cape's downsmash is actually pretty good but needs some work. It comes out fast and is comboable at some percents which make it a valuable tech chase and quick punishment tool. It either needs to have more base and less knockback growth than in Cape's version to have more reliable set ups or have a little more knockback growth so it becomes a kill move quicker.

2. Downthrow buff: Important. I still use dthrow now and then but its lack of damage makes me use his other throws WAYYY more often. Recently, I have put a speed buff on it that seems to work out for him great. It makes this move much more useful as he has better chances to follow up, even have access to his jab grab set up again if they don't react correctly.

3. Secondary minion toss: Many players tend to get annoyed by accidentally picking up a minion that's already out and a lot of people here want it to be removed. I don't think that removing it is the right thing to do anymore. Actually getting to throwing the minion again isn't all that easy when the opponent is trying to keep you away from it which could make his gameplay interesting with a little buff. The animation while throwing the minions after they are already out should be sped up by a lot. It should put Dedede at a much more advantageous position than the original minion toss. I am talking about a rather large speed buff too this.

Also, since it was mentioned by someone else in the topic kinda, I think it would be interesting to try out having Dedede's f-tilt's tip cause opponent's to trip or fall on their backs.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

ddd and bowser have nothing for other characters to really fear. As been mentioned many times dk is scary cause of his grab, and the fact he isnt slow. I think they need to have a really good defining trait that makes them scary. In vbrawl ddd was scary cause of his chaingrab and grab range. Ganon was scary in melee cause his fair was just so **** good and he could kill you in 3-4 moves. In street fighter gief is scary cause of his command grab. We just have to give them something that makes them intimidating and make the other character feel at risk getting close to them.