60 half frames (fields) per second =/= 30 frames per second. This is an entirely useless equation for all practical purposes and should be beaten out of your head.
Smash runs and outputs at 60 Hz (NTSC) regardless of whether or not it's outputting 480i or 480p. This half of every frame of animation that an interlaced display is showing (now called a field) represents a different moment in time. You cannot equate these to complete frames.
I know, but you're still seeing 60 half frames which is kinda 30fps. i know the game runs as 60fps and you can't change that. i know exactly what you mean and you're completely right. maybe my phrasing needs readjusting.
for those of you who don't understand, it's like this.
you have 10 frames to display. you would see the following (each comma seperates a frame)
on 480i: 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, 9/10
on 480p, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
on 480i, there's a 33.3ms delay before every frame refresh. there are 10 frames trying to be displayed, but in order to see them, they have to be mashed together. you see 5 mashed together frames trying to make up 10 frames.
i say mashed, but in reality one frame is "laced" into other frame. laced into each other... interlaced, get it? frames 1 & 2 are trying to be displayed at the same time. you see half of frame 1 and half of frame 2. they have to be interlaced. it looks something like this:
Scroll up and down while looking at the image. See the flickering. That's what the Deflicker option is for. It tries to smoothen out the interlacing. 480p has no need for such option.
on 480p, there's a 16.6ms delay before every frame refresh, there are 10 frames trying to be displayed and each frame can be displayed individually. there is no interlacing needed.
this is refresh rate or hertz.
30hz = 33.3ms delay before every refresh
60hz = 16.6ms delay before every refresh
the game WILL run in 60fps, but how fast your screen refreshes depends on whether you play on 480i (30hz) and 480p (60hz)
Just for everyone's information, I have a Westinghouse 42" 1080p LCD HDTV. I purchased it strictly with Melee and Brawl in mind, and it's the 12th HDTV I've purchased. (All of the other ones were either taken back or sold due to lag.)
Anyway, this TV has absolutely no lag when the games are run in Progressive Scan, which is both Melee and Brawl (with the component cables, of course.)
Just thought I'd let everyone know. A sh*tton of competitive Smashers have played on my TV, and all have agreed there is no lag. Also, the actual TV is just f*cking fantastic. I would recommend.
~Dac
Yep, I use the same TV (LVM42w2) and running in progressive scan gives a 9ms lag, which is nothing. 8ms of that is from being an LCD and the rest is scaling and preprocessing. You'd get the same lag on an LCD SDTV so as I said before, HDTV isn't the problem. The most common problem is running 480i on and HDTV instead of 480p and having a TV that does too many fancy preprocessing (image correction and stuff)
Can we try to combine all the HDTV lag discussions into one thread? There's no need for 3 active ones, and people who miss important posts will come into other similar threads asking the same thing over and over. Thanks
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=130287
The threads ARE "merged". ChiboSempai posted that information on page 5 of this thread. I have my own wrapup post on page 3. Through pages 3 and 5, Alt64Warrior and I argue some critical points. You can't get more merged that that. ChiboSempai took it upon himself to start a new thread with on his own saying everything we said and researched as his own, even though he said our information was "wrong" with no clarification as to what is wrong.
In reality, his first few paragraphs are all wrong. He says there are no TVs with native 1080i. That's a lie, (and strange since he later goes to say his TV has native 1080i) HD CRTs are very common to have 480p and 1080i as the native resolution. He also says 720p and 1080p are commonly found native resolutions. That's also wrong, since 720p TVs are near inexistant. Most LCDs and Plasmas run at 768p. Have people set the resolution on their Xbox360 to 1280x720 is a foolish idea since it would have to scale twice. 640p games like Halo3 and CoD4 would be scaled to 720p by the Xbox360 and then the TV will scale it again to 768p. Scaling twice creates unnecessary lag, even if it's it's unnoticeable (probably 1ms) it just shows the bad advice.
Also there is disinformation that having a HDTV with little lag is dependent on price. The guy doesn't even have a true HDTV of his own. Both Dac and I have the same 1080p TV with doesn't lag at all more than SDTVs of comparable size and screen type and it cost us $1200. It's 42" and 1080p! He goes on to say, to people that if they even consider getting an HDTV that "Any HDTV that isn't optimized for gaming will run LAGGY."
Which is soooo very false, since Dac and I have the same TV and it has no "Game Mode" and isn't marketted as a gaming tv. The lag is the same as 42" SDTV on 480i. 1ms from processing. 8ms from being a LCD anyway. SDTVs and EDTVs can be LCD too! That was the main reason why I started posting here. I was afraid people were going to miscontrue that HDTV sets lag extra just because they're HDTV. That's is very false. It's in the HDTV spec to lag when scaling 480p. My Westinghouse (which is noted as a very cheap brand) can do it in less than 1ms. It's the manufacturer's choice to put a bunch of pre-processing. Those pre-processing algorithms exist in large screen SDTVs and EDTVs. Sure, more so in HDTV, but ChiboSempai, someone who doesn't even use an HDTV, goes on to have allow people automatically flag HDTV as useless for Smash unless you have a high priced HDTV. This doesn't allow to understand that viewing 60fps instead of viewing only 30fps (via 30 interlaced frames) every makes a difference in technical play, especially with powershielding/reflecting and sweetspotting.
Like the comments about the Sharp Aqua TVs, which I researched. I have no problem with a single master post being made. That's what I did, on page 3. I made it to "finalize the thread" and said it was composition of everything that was said on the thread. But I don't appreciate saying everyone is wrong and remaking another "master post" with the same information and information he did not research himself, calling it his own and not citing the people on the thread who contributed to it. Then opening a new thread with other people's information and calling it his work. It's just being a **** and an attention *****.
As for making a full final post, I'd wait a while. Information keeps flowing in. I'd like to finalize a clean and clear explanation, pictures and all. I have a link to some Melee footage @ 60fps to make a comparison video (it's the Got Melee? video). I think the topic is too "hot" and there's too much involvement (just look at the deinterlace explanation I started) to immediately make a final post. I do this kaibyaku sohuld just change the thread title and edit some information in the first post how this is an ongoing effort from a couple of members of the boards.
