HDTV Lag Correction

[kaibyaku]

Has Sakurai really thought of everything? I know it sounds like such a small detail, but I think it would be great to see something like this implemented. Games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band have a feature to this effect, and I must say Rock Band did a really good job. My roommate has a 42" plasma TV which we use to play games on, but playing Melee on it is really frustrating as the TV lags and it throws off all my timing (even with component cables).

So what do you guys think? Will Sakurai include such a feature, or will we have to set up the Wii in the dorm lounge every time we want to play without "adjusting" to the TV's lag?

 

[Mario77]

Yo Im buyin a new TV just for BRAWL and what TV you got cuz I aint buying that one lol! UR TV prob is broke lol...

 

[Truegamer#1]

Just get a non HDTV Television...
I prerfer a 30in HD TV from SONY...

 

[SirroMinus1]

im keeping my old tv for brawl. melee laged on my friends hdtv so im not taking no chances.

 

[DragonBlade]

I don't see how this would work for smash, unless you can send the signal back in time.

 

[DekuBoy]

My TV is HD Ready. Does that count?

 

[Pookiez]

yeah adjusting the TV lag wouldn't work on a real time game. It works on games like GH because it is all scripted.

 

[EarthHero]

Yeah. I know how you feel. My new HDTV lags on melee too. I was so heated cause i was playin my friend for money and it threw off my game terribly. lol. I really do hope Sakurai fixes that. It's funny how people think your TV is broken. lol. Maybe they just don't have an HDTV.

 

[Bli33ard]

Guitar Hero III had this, too. It was the only way I could play it. And I have the same problem as you guys. Melee is a nightmare on HDTVs!!!

 

[EarthHero]

I concur. I think they are fixing that though. Cause remember the update for widescreen capabilities? In this day and age, a widescreen means an HDTV. So I think they already took that into account. Plus, I'm sure nintendo displayed the demo at E for All on HDTV's. They only have like a trillion dollars. They can afford a couple HDTV's. lol. Am I right?

 

[shadydentist]

Its been said before, but this is impossible for a game like smash. Guitar Hero works because a song will always play the same way, and the game can basically anticipate how long to wait for the signal from the guitar. If you're worried about lag from HDTVs, some tvs have a 'Game' option that reduces filtering, or you could invest in component cables which greatly reduces the processing time.

 

[EarthHero]

I understand that. I have the component cables. It still doesn't compensate. I'm really lookin forward to playin BRAWL in HD. Please don't disappoint me Nintendo!!! lol.

 

[Igneous42]

Has Sakurai really thought of everything? I know it sounds like such a small detail, but I think it would be great to see something like this implemented. Games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band have a feature to this effect, and I must say Rock Band did a really good job. My roommate has a 42" plasma TV which we use to play games on, but playing Melee on it is really frustrating as the TV lags and it throws off all my timing (even with component cables).

So what do you guys think? Will Sakurai include such a feature, or will we have to set up the Wii in the dorm lounge every time we want to play without "adjusting" to the TV's lag?

I think the wii has some built in functions for that. Although you shouldn't be playing on a plasma for gaming. Of the three HDTV kinds it's the worst with lag.

I have a LCD HDTV and have never once had a problem with lag (due to the tv, i've had internet lag online), granted the TV I have was made for games, i've still had no problems. But i'm sure there will be things to prevent lag.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Yea, I think because widescreen is taken care of , they're taking care of anyhting with HD, since the two are pretty much together.

kaibyaku, what part of Chicago are you from?

 

[TheCanuck75]

You guys just need to do your homework on shopping for a good HDTV. I can tell you one important aspect of a TV is the refresh rate. I would not play on an HDTV that has less than 60hz refrest rate. It is also important to have a high contrast ratio. I am playing Melee on my 40" Samsung 1080p LCD television and it is smooth. It is a great TV. The only thing I would say is since the Wii only does 480p on 40" the lines are not exactly perfect, but that's the Wii's problem only being 480p (EDTV), not the TV's (which is made for HDTV)

Do not make the mistake of trying to be cheap with your TV purchase. Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, and Toshiba are some of the brand names I have read reviews for that do a great job with HDTVs. Personally I either buy Sony or Samsung. I usually like Samsung because their TVs are great quality for a lot less money than a similar Sony TV. I will say though that I have never been disappointed with a Sony TV, so if you have the money, buy a nice Sony Bravia. Some of the newer ones have contrast ratios of somehting like 30,000:1 and a refresh rate of 120hz (that's impressive!)

I bought my TV for doing more things that playing with the Wii, but if you only want a new TV for your Wii, do not buy an HDTV, you are wasting your money. Get an EDTV since nothing for the Wii uses anything more than 480p (hence, EDTV).

For more in depth information on televisions, go to CNet. They have great reviews on televisions. I will aslo say that TV makers usually bring in their new models around January, so I'd wait a month before making that purchase.

 

[Run Native]

If you watch the brawl videos at E 4 all all the Wiis are hooked up to HDTVs. I noticed both Samsungs and Sharps. As far as LCDs, Samsungs are top of the line, but not all of us are incredibly rich which is why I bought a Sharp television.

 

[Gdorfsmash]

This is because melee wasn't made in progressive scan (cause it's old) and was unable to support wide screen so you had to strech it and that caused the lag.

This happens to me but when i set my HDTV to 4:3 standard the lag stops. Brawl has a 16:9 mode so the lag shouldn't be a problem, hope this helped.

 

[TheCanuck75]

This is because melee wasn't made in progressive scan (cause it's old)

Actually, Melee DOES support progressive scan....

 

[DragonBlade]

Actually, Melee DOES support progressive scan....

Yeah, if you hold B when Melee loads and your are connected with a component cable, it will ask you if you want to enable progressive scan. It looks pretty nice I think.

 

[igloo9]

I have a 46" samsung lcd tv. My contrast ratio is 5000:1 is that good? And how do I find out my Hz/Refresh rate?

 

[Chunky-MonkeyLOL]

Wait so Melee lags on HDTVs? Huh I never noticed this, but then again it might be because my TV isn't actually LCD. Hmm...either that or I just got used to it.

 

[AltF4]

1) Every Wii game will always lag on an HDTV. No matter what. (Any TV with native resolution > 480)

2) Brawl cannot do lag compensation like Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero is a unique game in the fact that it is deterministic. The game knows exactly what is coming up next, thus it can "see the future". It compensates for lag by displaying what comes next, before it happens. You cannot do this for smash. The game does not know what you are going to do in the future. Guitar Hero, however, can predict the future because it will always be the same notes of whatever song you're playing.

In conclusion, Brawl will lag on HDTV's. No way around it. Blame Nintendo.

 

[TheCanuck75]

I have a 46" samsung lcd tv. My contrast ratio is 5000:1 is that good? And how do I find out my Hz/Refresh rate?

That's a decent contrast ratio. As to your refresh rate question, I cannot help you without knowing the model name. However, if you go under your TV settings there should be an option for refresh rate. If you have a newer 46" television, then I imagine it will support 60hz. I have only really seen the Sony and some Panasonic televisions support 120hz, and it really is not a huge difference.

As for this issue on whether Smash can support lag correction or not, it cannot for the reasons AltF4Warrior and others have stated. But believe me when I say that if you spend your money wisely on an HDTV the lag is hardly noticable and a non-issue. Yes, Nintendo should have supported HD, but they did not and it is up to you to buy the right TV.

 

[AltF4]

Yes, the lag is noticeable.

That's why Guitar Hero has a compensation option. Because it's very noticeable. Don't fool yourself.

Wii and HDTV's don't play well together.

 

[igloo9]

When you guys say that Wii isn't perfect/it lags on Hdtvs, are you talking about with or without component cables/480p?

And is it any better or worse if you have an lcd and not a plasma?

 

[ShortFuse]

You people don't know what you're talking about.

HDTV has nothing to do with lag. It's like saying "My computer games lag more at 1280x720 than 720x480." No, they don't and you're a fool to think they do. HDTV is a resolution which the Wii does not use. Wii uses 480p max (EDTV).

The Wii is not even upping the resolution. You're talking about the difference between 480i and 480p. Regardless, the game is rendered in 60fps. When you use 480i, you're only seeing 30fps. When you're using 480p, you're seeing 60fps. It's refresh rate. How fast it constantly refreshes on the screen (aka 30Hz vs 60Hz)

It depends on your screen. LCDs and Plasma have higher lags than CRTs. (which are near 0ms)
But regardless, the lag on LCDs and Plasma are usually 8ms. Do you guys know what 8ms is? 8/1000th of a second. 1/125th a second. Don't worry, the lag is near inexistant. The only games that consider adjusting the lag are sound orientated games like Guitar Hero and DDR. Why?

Because the video, audio and gamepad all have to sync. Guitar Hero 1, 2 and Rock Band (Guitar Hero III is dumbed down) are really picky on the timing and being off by a couple ms will affect your score.

That's not the case with Smash. The video will behind 1/125th of a second. Being that the game is weighed in fractions 1/60ths of a second, you'll be 1/65th of a second behind what actually is going on. Yeah, you're not going to notice. Besides, you'd WANT an HDTV (or at least EDTV) to play Smash. You'd be watching the game in 60fps, and not 30fps. When you start playing at 480p, you SEE the difference and going back to 480i the game will feel choppier. It's especially important in frame counting. With 480i, you'd only see frames 1 3 5 7 9. With 480p you see all 1-10. I used to play Soul Calibur II competitively, and that game has serious frame counting. You can cancel being grabs and for that, you'd need to know whether the opponent did an A grab or a B grab on you. To know you have like 8 frames to determine if they're doing an A Grab or a B Grab. Seeing 60fps instead of 30fps makes a huge difference in that case.

The fact your screen is HDTV has NOTHING to do with it. If you have a have a regular NON HDTV LCD and it'll lag the same as an HDTV. It's the type of screen that matters, not the resolution/refresh rate.

 

[AltF4]

... are you serious?

For the record, I do know what I'm talking about.

How detailed of a description do you want, detailing exactly how and why lag happens on HDTV's. A high level overview, or a very detailed description.

 

[ShortFuse]

... are you serious?

For the record, I do know what I'm talking about.

How detailed of a description do you want, detailing exactly how and why lag happens on HDTV's. A high level overview, or a very detailed description.

go ahead. Try proving HDCRTs have more lag an 480i LCDs.
No one ever drops down their computer crt monitor's refresh rate to 30hz to "reduce lag" and every tries to up the refresh rate. it doesn't take a lag hit.
the only lag hit because of HDTV is because of de-interlacing and scaling 480i which is about 6ms. if you the run the game in 480p, you remove deinterlacing. most HD CRTs don't have to scale either. DLPs are even worse, but that goes with my point of what screen you have matters more than what resolution.

 

[igloo9]

Shortfuse, then what is contrast ratio? Sorry, I'm not very smart about Hdtvs.

 

[kaibyaku]

Hah, yeah I figured there wouldn't really be a way to go around that, I was just really impressed with the way Rock Band handled lag correction. GH3's lag calibration didn't look/feel right for me, but Rock Band's lets notes be hit right on the spot and work great... Of course we actually had to set timings to 90ms.

To this day I give my roommate a hard time about getting this ****ty HDTV. We went over to this other friend's house who has a 50" Plasma.. I think Panasonic, and it worked great.

ShortFuse, I believe you're the one who has no idea what you're talking about. I can tell you right now playing on my roommate's TV and playing on a CRT feels completely different, and I have about 5 other friends who can attest to this.

The problem lies in the upscaling of the game image to try and match the TVs native resolution. This upscaling takes time because it doesn't just stretch the image, it tries to smooth it out and make it look pretty before giving it to you, which causes lag. There is no Game Mode on this TV, sadly, so there's no way of getting rid of the smoothing/whatever.

The problem with this HDTV (It's an LG btw) is that even if you're running games at 720p (it's native res) it'll still lag, and it's bad. It's not a problem with _all_ HDTVs, it's just some of them that do have it, and for some cases (like mine) it's really bad.

I suppose I was just thinking wishfully when I made this post. It's really just one of those things that can really get to you... waking up and looking at this beautiful 42" and not being able to play any of my favorites games on it... It's just frustrating.

 

[ShortFuse]

Shortfuse, then what is contrast ratio? Sorry, I'm not very smart about Hdtvs.

contrast ratio is video contrast. in other words, how many times brighter the brightest white is to darkest black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_ratio

 

[Card]

... are you serious?

For the record, I do know what I'm talking about.

How detailed of a description do you want, detailing exactly how and why lag happens on HDTV's. A high level overview, or a very detailed description.

Yes, please do.

I just bought a 42" SHARP Aquos LCD 1080p HDTV... particularly for Smash.

I plugged in my Wii with standard composite cables and set it to 480i to see how it would be. The lag was very noticeable, especially for a game like Guitar Hero, you could barely play that game with composite cables.

I went out and bought the component cables for the Wii, plugged those in, and set my Wii to 480p. Now everything seems PERFECT. I haven't had a single moment where it lagged, everything seemed to be working exactly the same as it used to on my CRT.

In fact I even played tons of games of Smash Melee last night on it. There was absolutely no problems, and it played exactly the same as it did on my CRT. The only difference was that it looked so much better, clearer, crisper than it did, and it was on progressive scan as well.


so PLEASE tell me why Smash Brawl is going to LAG (When every other Wii game I own does not) because this gets me VERY nervous...

 

[ShortFuse]

Hah, yeah I figured there wouldn't really be a way to go around that, I was just really impressed with the way Rock Band handled lag correction. GH3's lag calibration didn't look/feel right for me, but Rock Band's lets notes be hit right on the spot and work great... Of course we actually had to set timings to 90ms.

To this day I give my roommate a hard time about getting this ****ty HDTV. We went over to this other friend's house who has a 50" Plasma.. I think Panasonic, and it worked great.

ShortFuse, I believe you're the one who has no idea what you're talking about. I can tell you right now playing on my roommate's TV and playing on a CRT feels completely different, and I have about 5 other friends who can attest to this.

The problem lies in the upscaling of the game image to try and match the TVs native resolution. This upscaling takes time because it doesn't just stretch the image, it tries to smooth it out and make it look pretty before giving it to you, which causes lag. There is no Game Mode on this TV, sadly, so there's no way of getting rid of the smoothing/whatever.

The problem with this HDTV (It's an LG btw) is that even if you're running games at 720p (it's native res) it'll still lag, and it's bad. It's not a problem with _all_ HDTVs, it's just some of them that do have it, and for some cases (like mine) it's really bad.

I suppose I was just thinking wishfully when I made this post. It's really just one of those things that can really get to you... waking up and looking at this beautiful 42" and not being able to play any of my favorites games on it... It's just frustrating.

CRTs have near 0 ms in lag. I'm agreeing with you on that point.

Take a look at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

It's AVSForum debate and they're really technical about this stuff. Look how 480p compares to everything else.

Here are some points:

Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)*
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> Small lag

Lag is worse on native than 480p. DLPs are the worst.

Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

HDCRTs have near 0 LAG.

HDTV lag MORE when deinterlacing 480i to 480p.

 

[kaibyaku]

Yes, please do.

I just bought a 42" SHARP Aquos LCD 1080p HDTV... particularly for Smash.

I plugged in my Wii with standard composite cables and set it to 480i to see how it would be. The lag was very noticeable, especially for a game like Guitar Hero, you could barely play that game with composite cables.

I went out and bought the component cables for the Wii, plugged those in, and set my Wii to 480p. Now everything seems PERFECT. I haven't had a single moment where it lagged, everything seemed to be working exactly the same as it used to on my CRT.

In fact I even played tons of games of Smash Melee last night on it. There was absolutely no problems, and it played exactly the same as it did on my CRT. The only difference was that it looked so much better, clearer, crisper than it did, and it was on progressive scan as well.


so PLEASE tell me why Smash Brawl is going to LAG (When every other Wii game I own does not) because this gets me VERY nervous...

It shouldn't, if component cables fixed it for you then Brawl should be fine. My problem was that even WITH component cables the game lagged, making it really bothersome to play.

 

[igloo9]

Wait a second, if games don't lag at all on an hdtv if you're using regular avi/composite cables, does that mean it also won't lag if you use component cables? Or is there still a chance it would lag?

Because 2 nights ago, me and 2 of my cousins played melee on my 46" hdtv with regular composite cables and it didn't lag at all. Does this mean it's ok and it won't lag in Brawl 480p?

 

[AltF4]

Okay, here we go:

Why HDTV's lag with Wii games:


A TV can only display video that it is compatible with. The compatible sources for each TV are listed under "Native Resolution" for your TV. Just about every HDTV has a native resolution above 480, which means it cannot play standard definition video.

But that wouldn't be very fun wouldn't it? A TV that can't play regular video? So instead of not being able to play it, your TV takes that normal signal and upconverts it into an HD signal for you! That way it can play signals of any type.

However, your TV is not a supercomputer. It takes some time to do the processing involved with upconversion. This time processing time causes lag. Also, your TV will likely have to convert the interlaced signal to progressive scan, causing even more processing.

Furthermore, don't be fooled by manufacturer's response time statistics. Not only do they lie about them and tell you only the very best case scenario, but it is not indicative of the actual lag experienced at all. Response time is the amount of time it takes a pixel to respond to a signal. Is is NOT the amount of time it takes for your TV to process a signal and display it.

For example, TV's do a lot of background processing to try to make your picture look prettier. They do anti-aliasing, color reduction or enhancing, and a whole myriad of other tasks. Some TV's have an option where you can turn this processing off, but the vast majority don't.

This enhancement will cause even more processing time and even more lag.



The typical Brawl player who picks the game up, plugs it into their HDTV with their normal composite cables. (The red, yellow, and white ones) will experience upscaling lag, deinterlacing lag, processing lag, and response time lag. All of this sums up to something very significant.

Anything I missed?

EDIT:

Look up the "Native Resolution" on your TV. If it says 480p, 720p, or 1080p, then using Wii Component Cables will get rid of deinterlacing lag, and will reduce the lag by a small bit. But the other stuff will still be there.

 

[ShortFuse]

It shouldn't, if component cables fixed it for you then Brawl should be fine. My problem was that even WITH component cables the game lagged, making it really bothersome to play.

doesn't make much sense. Component requires more bandwidth, yes but if you make sure you have your Wii set to 480p not 480i. not having to deinterlace the 480i video (composite/svideo) SHOULD (but not always depending on the tv chipset) be more compensation than using component bandwidth rather than component/svideo

 

[igloo9]

Do you have to have hd channels or some kind of cable box or something to play games in 480p and progressive scan?

 

[kaibyaku]

doesn't make much sense. Component requires more bandwidth, yes but if you make sure you have your Wii set to 480p not 480i. not having to deinterlace the 480i video (composite/svideo) SHOULD (but not always depending on the tv chipset) be more compensation than using component bandwidth rather than component/svideo

Well see, I have seen many cases where component cables have reduced lag beyond the noticeable point. Two of my friends have LCD TVs and it helped get rid of lag altogether. One of them plays Guitar Hero on his TV and he doesn't even need to calibrate lag with his component cables, even though he needed to before. And this guy knows his Guitar Hero, he actually 5 starred Dragonforce in GH3. The other TV I myself tested with smash, and there was no noticeable lag.

 

[ShortFuse]

Okay, here we go:
For example, TV's do a lot of background processing to try to make your picture look prettier. They do anti-aliasing, color reduction or enhancing, and a whole myriad of other tasks. Some TV's have an option where you can turn this processing off, but the vast majority don't.

This enhancement will cause even more processing time and even more lag.

ALL TVs do this and not just HDTVs so you have to throw that out.

Using 480i on HDTV will lag, yes, but 480p doesn't deinterlace as I said before. Believe it or not but 480p on a 720p lags LESS than 720p on 720p because of signal processing delay / bandwidth consumption but that varies on TV to TV mostly because of the image processing. Wii doesn't care about 720 or 1080p, so it's just 480p where delay on a poor processor'd 1080p HDTV will at most be 20ms.