Legend of Zelda Happy Mask Shop difference in OoT 3D

[MuraRengan]

In OoT 3D the backpack that the Happy Mask Salesman carried in MM can be seen in the background. Checking back to the original OoT, the backpack isn't there. Subtle refrence to MM? Or missing link tying OoT and MM's salesmen as the same person? Let the theorycrafting begin.

 

[Spire]

Subtle reference to MM that ties OoT and MM's salesmen together. The end.

 

[MuraRengan]

>:/ Killjoy.

Well technically it doesn't prove that they're the same guy because it was done way after the fact and there's nothing proving that it's the same bag.

But it's definitely a refrence to MM.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

The Happy Mask Salesman is the same person in OoT and MM.
At the beginning of MM he says that he owns the Happy Mask Shop.

This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTFzguy4gbw#t=9m04

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In a feeble attempt to defend the "could be different people" argument, it might be a translation thing. I always think you can never really trust a translation from time to time. You hear that many things are erased due to how the pictograph nature of kanji makes for more compact writing. Can say a lot more in a smaller space.

 

[MuraRengan]

Not to mention that it might be another Happy Mask Shop altogether. This is a universe parallel to hyrule, with identical characters and identical stores. The fact that the salesman has to tell Link that he his the owner of the store supports the idea that they are two different people, because the other character that came from Hyrule, the Skull Kid, remembers Link (though only vaguely).

Still, I'd like to believe that they're the same person.

[EDIT] Can anyone tell me the color of the Happy Mask Salesman's eyes? I'm partially colorblind so I can't exactly tell. The only time you can see them is when he's mad, and they look black to me. But the Zelda Wiki article says that his eyes are red. I need someone to verify this because that very issue is crucial for an interesting theory that the salesman might be a Shiekah.

 

[Spire]

The moon children are the Happy Mask Salesman's Terminan counterparts. You encounter him in the beginning of Majora's Mask where he explains he's traveled to Termina in search of an ancient mask.

Ha, have you guys ever examined the Happy Mask Salesman as a metaphor for Shigeru Miyamoto? He is said to have been designed with Miyamoto's likeness in mind, hence his particular smile. Because Miyamoto basically rushed Aonuma and his team to make a full Zelda game in a year (1999) as a response to Ocarina of Time's impeccable success, the dev team was stressed to deliver. As a metaphor for Miyamoto's demanding instruction, they decided to take the Happy Mask Salesman—as based on Miyamoto—and portray him in dim light, as a slightly sinister bundle of smiles, happily willing to use you for his endeavors... as if Miyamoto pushed the team to find his prize, a prize cursed by selfish whims. Majora's Mask.

Edit:

Black eyes it seems.

 

[etecoon]

miyamoto is a scary man

 

[Teran]

The first time Happy Mask Salesman flipped, my heart ****in stopped.

I was only 9 WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The moon children are the Happy Mask Salesman's Terminan counterparts. You encounter him in the beginning of Majora's Mask where he explains he's traveled to Termina in search of an ancient mask.

Exactly!

The most telling part is the moon here. The moon is a big subject of discussion.


Personally, I think the moon is a deity.
Every mythology has the same age old moon vs sun thing. In this game, I see Majora as the sun and Fierce Deity as the moon (for Hyrule, I'd seen Ganon as sun and Link as moon, mainly because Link only exists if Ganon exists (the moon reflects the sun's light)).

Now, the moon as deity has some merits. First of all, there's Fierce Deity representing it. Then there's the fact that the moon shed a tear. There's the face of the moon.
Look at it;

Want to know why it's so scary? Because it's probably the most sad face you've ever seen in video games. It looks threatening because it's big and about to crash down, but if anything, the face gives me goosebumps every time because it looks like it rather dies than do this.
The moon was forced to do this.

The moon is thus conscious. So, it's fair to say that when you enter it, you enter it's subsconscious.
The Happy Mask Salesman his counterparts live in the moon's subconscious. What does this mean? I haven't thought about it. Is it a hint that the Happy Mask Salesman is a fragment of Link himself? Possible. Brainstorming allowed here.

Now, to support some Moon = Link/Deity and Sun = Ganon/Majora;
Moon:

Moon's official symbol.

Symbol on his chest.

Also, note how all his clothes are white. Like the moon.
The sun stands for color, Fierce Deity is devoid of color, except for the war painting on his face.

Another fun thing for speculation; every mask you've gained that changes you is the embodiment of a healed soul, so who is Fierce Deity? I would argue it's the moon itself.
Most moon gods are male too. Just saying.

Then, for Sun = Majora/Ganon;
They both live in schorched deserts. Where the sun is prevalent. What does Ganon fire at you? Bolts of light.

And yes, Majora comes from the desert;

Decorated by suns;

Even his boss image is represented by COLOR and A SUN in which THE MASK ITSELF IS PLACED.

Then there's the fact that most sun gods are female, and Majora is very clearly female. Not to mention, some female goddesses follow the trickster concept, which lines up perfectly with Majora in multiple ways.

Hey look man it's the mask radiating light;

God this became long. I probably missed stuff but whatevs. One thing I'd like to note is that I don't like how this ruins my Fierce Deity = Ganon theory, which still holds merit.

 

[MuraRengan]

The moon children are the Happy Mask Salesman's Terminan counterparts. You encounter him in the beginning of Majora's Mask where he explains he's traveled to Termina in search of an ancient mask.

Ha, have you guys ever examined the Happy Mask Salesman as a metaphor for Shigeru Miyamoto? He is said to have been designed with Miyamoto's likeness in mind, hence his particular smile. Because Miyamoto basically rushed Aonuma and his team to make a full Zelda game in a year (1999) as a response to Ocarina of Time's impeccable success, the dev team was stressed to deliver. As a metaphor for Miyamoto's demanding instruction, they decided to take the Happy Mask Salesman—as based on Miyamoto—and portray him in dim light, as a slightly sinister bundle of smiles, happily willing to use you for his endeavors... as if Miyamoto pushed the team to find his prize, a prize cursed by selfish whims. Majora's Mask.

Edit:

Black eyes it seems.

I believe I read your Miyamoto theory somewhere else before and I agree that they at least share a resemblance in face and character. But I don't necessarily believe the moon children are the salesman's counterparts, mostly because there's five of them, they don't wear his clothes, and we never learn for certain what their faces are. There are no other examples of character counterparts beign so radically different. But I think it's supposed to be that way, if you'll entertain this sheikah theory.

Just based on the Zelda Wiki article I've been reading, the three identifying characteristics of the Sheikah are red-eyes, pointy ears, and magical powers. He's got the ears, and he hints at having magical powers. He knows the Song of Healing, which is magical. At the end of the game he just disappears, which is also pretty magical. He's an expert on magical mask stuff. I think it's safe to say that at the very least, he's far from an ordinary man.

The Sheikah are also known for their affiliation with the shadows, and the for the entire game the Salesman waits in Clock Tower, in the dark, behind the scenes. Also, in the beginning to MM he admits to have been following Link, though Link never knew it.

The most telling part for me is the fact that in OoT, he has the Mask of Truth, which is one of three ancient Sheikah truth items. Not only does he have it, he knows what it is and what it does. The two other truth items, the Lens of Truth and the Stone/Shard of Agony, were hidden in Kakariko Village, which is riddled with Sheikah history.

If he is a Sheikah, then we have to consider what his motive is. He says that he has to leave Termina in three days, but we should take that statement with a grain of salt. Remember that time does not move inside the clock tower (another possibly reason to deduce that he has magical powers), so while Link is going through the days and resetting time over and over again, the salesman has been standing there the whole time. In actual time, he would have been standing there for way more than three days. We can see that the "I have somewhere to go" statement is a big lie. and he has to know it because he's stays in the one place where time doesn't matter throughout the whole game.

However, we do know that he enjoys using masks to make people happy. He does it in OoT and MM as well. Tie this concept in with the idea that MM was a spiritual journey for Link and we have something interesting. Perhaps the Salesman was pushing Link into this journey for Link's own sake. Perhaps all of the events of the entire game were orchestrated by the Salesman to help Link. There's some evidence for this as well:

1. Masks are of huge importance to the world of Termina, and they are also, of course, the Salesman's specialty.
2. If you allow the moon to crash, the Salesman is the one who saves you.
3. In the moon the moon children share a resemblance to the Salesman, yet they wear masks that represent all the evils you've been fighting. One could say that in every instance, he is the "man-behind-the-mask." Who's behind the poision at the swamps? The frost in the mountains? The storms at sea? The cursed lands? The moon's fall? You would think that the skull kid would be the answer, but we learn that the skull kid is a puppet, and in the very end the people behind all those respective masks seem to be the salesman himself.

So what if the Salesman was the mastermind behind the entire journey? What becomes of Termina? I think it's possible that the entire land and people were illusions, things the Salesman created to influence Link's spiritual journey. That would explain why there are so many character counterparts, as well as a lot of nonsensical anomalies like a moon with a giant, angry face that has a meadow with a tree inside of it. There is also the fact that the one time the owl is spotted, he mentions that Termina is a land that is destined to fade away. But I'm not very big on this theory.

Lets go back to the idea that he orchestrates the entire journey. Why would that be, and what does it have to do with him being a Sheikah? Remember what he tells Link at the end of the game? He tells him to go home, back to Hyrule. Why Hyrule? Why not tell Link to go off and become his own person or something like that? That statement only makes sense is the Salesman is a Sheikah, because the Sheikah are the servants of Hyrule. Perhaps when the Hero of Time left the land, the Sheikah decided that he needed to be convinced to come back. Maybe Hyrule still needed (or wanted) him to be around. Considering that in this branch of the timeline Ganon is still around, it's possible.

If only he had red eyes, I'd be a lot more sure of this theory.

 

[etecoon]

not sure if I agree with the theory entirely but it makes a lot of sense to me. regardless of what it may be, I've always considered termina to be something of a manifestation of link and skull kids demons rather than a literal place, everything about it makes me think of something more like a fever dream or a shamanic vision...and somehow I could see happy mask salesman just -letting- skull kid get the drop on him, being devious and manipulative as he is

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Not having red eyes can easily be circumvented and weaved in with the fact that he isn't with the Sheikah, but then you're getting into pure fanfiction. *shrug*


by the by, the conclusion of my big post up there is
Moon = Fierce Deity
Link = Fierce Deity
Link = Moon

when you enter the moon, you enter the terminian counterpart of Link's subconscious. As farfetched as that might sound.

 

[Spire]

Then Link's subconscious has been subjected to death in 3 days. Perhaps that is the true urgency of the game. Perhaps Link is on a bad ayahuasca journey deep in the Lost Woods, consciously rattled and trying to find himself by overcoming these internal challenges. After being thrown into Ganon's maelstrom in OoT and having to save Hyrule from the threat, Link is sent back to being a child. Because it's practically impossible for him to really enjoy and live his life as a child, what with the memories of everything he had done—journeying into the forest to find Navi was less a search for his friend, but more a search for himself. The Terminan Dream may have been a deep, shamanistic journey, compelling Link to enter his subconscious to defeat his inner demon: Majora. And what better way than to reconstruct a physically older body to inhabit (The Fierce Deity).

If the Fierce Deity is the Moon and the Moon, Link, then Link's deepest recess of his subconscious created the Fierce Deity out of his memories of having been an adult. By collecting all the masks in Termina, by fulfilling all the available quests and solving everyone's problems, Link essentially overcame all of his mental clutter, finding beneath it a true power within himself—the Fierce Deity. Just as in dreams where often times you find yourself unlocking your true potential when facing the most threatening of forces, Link is able to don the Fierce Deity mask in boss fights.

By what is Majora if but a nightmare? By that accord, with Majora's shapeshifting, is it similar to The Windfish's Nightmare, Dethl? But then there are tidbits that suggest his Terminan journey was all-too real after all. The intro sequence of MM shows Link fading in and out of sleep atop a tiresome Epona, slowly trotting through the woods. Skull Kid attacks with Majora's Mask and steals Link's Ocarina as well as Epona. Is this but the beginning of Link's dream? Or did this actually happen? Furthermore, the bow found in the Goron Mines of TP is dubbed the Hero's Bow and resembles the Hero's Bow found in MM's Woodfall Temple. Could just be a coincidence and I'm not willing to assume Termina happened because of a single [minor] item's continuity.

If even the intro sequence was a dream, then did Link's subconscious use the remember Skull Kid character as an equal ploy to drag Link deeper into the dream? Link grew up with the Kokiri who feared above all losing themselves in the Lost Woods, becoming Skull Kids. This would have been one of Link's earliest cultural fears. In such a nightmare as Majora's Mask, it makes a certain degree of sense to see a victim of said fear lead Link along a spiritual journey by tasking him with worldly blight to overcome.

I'm really keen on exploring Termina as a spiritual dream.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Very, very interesting.

One thing, Link's subconscious hasn't been subjected, it represents how Link's subconscious is on the verge of destroying everything he experienced and thus everything he stands for and is. It's more of an existential crisis. A lot of the physological issues Link should logically develop get resolved if we assume these two theories (yours and mine) to be correct.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Slightly irrelevant to this topic but just found this

 

[Spire]

That's more or less what I was getting at. The moon crashing represents Link's subconscious being consumed by his demons (for all that he did as an adult). Link's mind creates a whole world and just as he enters it, finds that it is plagued. Obviously Link is on the verge of experiencing psychological disaster, which is why when entering this subconscious realm, it is automatically doomed. Essentially, Termina is Link's mind's ability to fabricate a world, but because he is not at peace with himself, the land is very unsettled. The inside of the moon represents what Link wants to see, his desires beneath all else. [Masked boys frolicking beneath a lone tree surrounded by clouds??]

With Majora a feminine being, Link seems to be trying to overcome a wry sexual manifestation.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Relating it to overcoming his sexuality is on one hand farfetched, on the other not. It does show because Link constantly get girls, but never answers to any of them. Then he suddenly grows up without ever experiencing sexual development and finds himself with Zelda at the end of the game.

The part where it doesn't make sense is that if we were to relate Majora with Ganon, how does that work? Why is Ganon's representation also representing sexual confusion? Why is the final boss the sexual representation? Is it that important? Is it a story about Link growing up or a story about Link getting closure about his adult years, to allow himself to grow up? Both?

and the moon representing Link's subconscious points more toward Link being ever so innocent, but [once you look past it/hidden inside that], it's chaotic. That's how I'd call the boss room, with all the colors and the chaotic movement patterns. Chaotic.

 

[MuraRengan]

I once wanted to explore Termina as a dream, because it being a dream would make a lot of sense. But there's simply not enough in the game supporting it for me to believe it. I was just watching the intro to the game on youtube. Link is awake the whole time, even when the fairies are spying on him. He never goes to sleep at all. And at the end of the credits, when he rides off you can see that he has any of the equipment that he had gained during the journey (mirror shield, guilded sword).

Also, the idea of Link having psychological issues has only been vaguely explored. What issues would he "naturally" develop? I need more specifics before I can agree.

 

[Spire]

The chromatic chaos of the boss room is similar to something I experienced in a deep, deep lapse of sleep over two years ago, what I dub my "natural DMT experience". I was a node of consciousness not bound to or aware of humanity, this earth, or the physical realm as I know it. Floating in an endless see of swirling colors unknown to the human eye, the deep fields were reminiscent of the walls of Majora's lair. I was able to communicate with other nodes of consciousness as we found ourselves innately connected. Separate in spiritual perspective, absent in body, but together in mind. Orbs of light either cyan or ochre traveled towards us from the swirling clouds of color, but before reaching, we had discerned a new purpose for them to take on, as we had discussed prior in transient mathematics. The very language of the universe we spoke, the language of form, the language that beings of sentience tap into in defining the misunderstood cosmos.

I've never before related this to Majora's Mask but I'm seeing some parallels.

I do believe that Zelda has some dark sexual undertones. Link is never shown to be with any of the girls who fall for him in his journeys. If anything, his undying conflict with Ganon might suggest his ever-struggle with dominative sexuality.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The chromatic chaos of the boss room is similar to something I experienced in a deep, deep lapse of sleep over two years ago, what I dub my "natural DMT experience". I was a node of consciousness not bound to or aware of humanity, this earth, or the physical realm as I know it. Floating in an endless see of swirling colors unknown to the human eye, the deep fields were reminiscent of the walls of Majora's lair. I was able to communicate with other nodes of consciousness as we found ourselves innately connected. Separate in spiritual perspective, absent in body, but together in mind. Orbs of light either cyan or ochre traveled towards us from the swirling clouds of color, but before reaching, we had discerned a new purpose for them to take on, as we had discussed prior in transient mathematics. The very language of the universe we spoke, the language of form, the language that beings of sentience tap into in defining the misunderstood cosmos.

I've never before related this to Majora's Mask but I'm seeing some parallels.

I do believe that Zelda has some dark sexual undertones. Link is never shown to be with any of the girls who fall for him in his journeys. If anything, his undying conflict with Ganon might suggest his ever-struggle with dominative sexuality.

Good read. <3

I once wanted to explore Termina as a dream, because it being a dream would make a lot of sense. But there's simply not enough in the game supporting it for me to believe it. I was just watching the intro to the game on youtube. Link is awake the whole time, even when the fairies are spying on him. He never goes to sleep at all. And at the end of the credits, when he rides off you can see that he has any of the equipment that he had gained during the journey (mirror shield, guilded sword).

Also, the idea of Link having psychological issues has only been vaguely explored. What issues would he "naturally" develop? I need more specifics before I can agree.

You have to realize that everything that happens in the game is predetermined. It's been programmed like that and playtested over and over and over again. Every ounce of animation and texture is carefully created. Why would they implement him almost falling asleep?

The issues are pretty clear. I think ZeldaInformer did a study on it a while ago though. Lemme google...
https://www.google.nl/search?client...rceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest

 

[MuraRengan]

The chromatic chaos of the boss room is similar to something I experienced in a deep, deep lapse of sleep over two years ago, what I dub my "natural DMT experience". I was a node of consciousness not bound to or aware of humanity, this earth, or the physical realm as I know it. Floating in an endless see of swirling colors unknown to the human eye, the deep fields were reminiscent of the walls of Majora's lair. I was able to communicate with other nodes of consciousness as we found ourselves innately connected. Separate in spiritual perspective, absent in body, but together in mind. Orbs of light either cyan or ochre traveled towards us from the swirling clouds of color, but before reaching, we had discerned a new purpose for them to take on, as we had discussed prior in transient mathematics. The very language of the universe we spoke, the language of form, the language that beings of sentience tap into in defining the misunderstood cosmos.

I've never before related this to Majora's Mask but I'm seeing some parallels.

I do believe that Zelda has some dark sexual undertones. Link is never shown to be with any of the girls who fall for him in his journeys. If anything, his undying conflict with Ganon might suggest his ever-struggle with dominative sexuality.

I was agreeing with a lot of what you have been saying until this post. The first paragraph is way out in left field. I have no idea what you're talking about. As for Link's sexual troubles, we have absolutely nothing we can use to discern how he feels about gender relations and whatnot. He gives no hint toward his feeling about any female at all, so we don't know whether he likes them or not. For all we know, he may not have even undergone puberty yet, and we don't know if being trapped in the sacred realm affected how he looks at women at all. Lets stick to what we actually have material for.

I think that Xonar's sun-and-moon post sums up why Majora is depicted as a woman.

However, I do like the idea the the inside of the moon represents Link's subconscious. I think we should explore how/if the moon children support this idea. I still think the Salesman still has a lot to do with this, because I don't think that Link could simply devise an entire journey to solve all of his own problems on his own. I think someone intervened.

You have to realize that everything that happens in the game is predetermined. It's been programmed like that and playtested over and over and over again. Every ounce of animation and texture is carefully created. Why would they implement him almost falling asleep?

We don't even know that he is falling asleep. You can't see his face at all. Furthermore, if he falls asleep, the first thing that would happen is that he would fall off his horse and wake up. That's not enough time for a dream to start. You assume too much.

 

[Luigitoilet]

The chromatic chaos of the boss room is similar to something I experienced in a deep, deep lapse of sleep over two years ago, what I dub my "natural DMT experience". I was a node of consciousness not bound to or aware of humanity, this earth, or the physical realm as I know it. Floating in an endless see of swirling colors unknown to the human eye, the deep fields were reminiscent of the walls of Majora's lair. I was able to communicate with other nodes of consciousness as we found ourselves innately connected. Separate in spiritual perspective, absent in body, but together in mind. Orbs of light either cyan or ochre traveled towards us from the swirling clouds of color, but before reaching, we had discerned a new purpose for them to take on, as we had discussed prior in transient mathematics. The very language of the universe we spoke, the language of form, the language that beings of sentience tap into in defining the misunderstood cosmos.

I've never before related this to Majora's Mask but I'm seeing some parallels.

I do believe that Zelda has some dark sexual undertones. Link is never shown to be with any of the girls who fall for him in his journeys. If anything, his undying conflict with Ganon might suggest his ever-struggle with dominative sexuality.

Dude, what?

 

[Spire]

I was agreeing with a lot of what you have been saying until this post. The first paragraph is way out in left field. I have no idea what you're talking about. As for Link's sexual troubles, we have absolutely nothing we can use to discern how he feels about gender relations and whatnot. He gives no hint toward his feeling about any female at all, so we don't know whether he likes them or not. For all we know, he may not have even undergone puberty yet, and we don't know if being trapped in the sacred realm affected how he looks at women at all. Lets stick to what we actually have material for.

I think that Xonar's sun-and-moon post sums up why Majora is depicted as a woman.

However, I do like the idea the the inside of the moon represents Link's subconscious. I think we should explore how/if the moon children support this idea. I still think the Salesman still has a lot to do with this, because I don't think that Link could simply devise an entire journey to solve all of his own problems on his own. I think someone intervened.

It was a dreamish experience I had. I was sharing it. For the first time (because of this thread), I realized the parallels it drew with the inner chambers of the moon in MM according to our developing (and derivative) dream theory.

Beyond that, I'm not theorizing about Link's sexuality. That is of no concern to me. Using Zelda introspectively, I reflect parts of myself. Just blindly conjecturing if anything. I don't care about theorycrafting to be honest.

 

[Teran]

I do believe that Zelda has some dark sexual undertones. Link is never shown to be with any of the girls who fall for him in his journeys. If anything, his undying conflict with Ganon might suggest his ever-struggle with dominative sexuality.

Don't you dare bring sex and smut into my Zelda!

 

[MuraRengan]

It was a dreamish experience I had. I was sharing it. For the first time (because of this thread), I realized the parallels it drew with the inner chambers of the moon in MM according to our developing (and derivative) dream theory.

Beyond that, I'm not theorizing about Link's sexuality. That is of no concern to me. Using Zelda introspectively, I reflect parts of myself. Just blindly conjecturing if anything. I don't care about theorycrafting to be honest.

All of theorycrafting is conjecture. If you're going to talk about yourself, then maybe you should use the word "I" instead of "Link" in all your posts.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I agree, I don't see how anything would relate to Link's sexuality.

I doubt thats what they even intended.

 

[etecoon]

there's a pretty clear male vs female theme in the game, even the gods seem to reflect this(the blasphemous imagery of stone tower). I wonder if the fact that link grew up without a mother, being raised by the deku tree(something of a father figure) influenced this?

and who said anything about link sleeping? dreamlike experiences and/or hallucinations can be brought on by dehydration, starvation, lack of sleep, drugs, or in a fantasy setting such as this magical means(majora's mask itself may actually be the trigger, another thought I had is that termina could be like hyrule's answer to silent hill, a real place yes, but it warps to reflect the mind of whomever enters it), near death experiences, meditation, any number of things really. I just think it's more likely than termina being a normal physical place all things considered, all the NPCs retaining the image of people link has seen before, lapses in logic(bank teller remembering you from...3 days in the future for one, happy mask salesman magically rescuing you from the apocalypse should you choose to allow it, a lot of things like the geography of termina are also markedly unnatural), so many of the games events being potential metaphors for issues that link or skull kid would have...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Just because sex isn't shown on screen doesn't mean he isn't getting any

If it was, it wouldn't be rated E or T like the other zelda games, depending

Plus, Zelda 2. He hits anything, even an old woman

 

[Spire]

All of theorycrafting is conjecture. If you're going to talk about yourself, then maybe you should use the word "I" instead of "Link" in all your posts.

Reread:

The chromatic chaos of the boss room is similar to something I experienced in a deep, deep lapse of sleep over two years ago, what I dub my "natural DMT experience". I was a node of consciousness not bound to or aware of humanity, this earth, or the physical realm as I know it. Floating in an endless see of swirling colors unknown to the human eye, the deep fields were reminiscent of the walls of Majora's lair. I was able to communicate with other nodes of consciousness as we found ourselves innately connected. Separate in spiritual perspective, absent in body, but together in mind. Orbs of light either cyan or ochre traveled towards us from the swirling clouds of color, but before reaching, we had discerned a new purpose for them to take on, as we had discussed prior in transient mathematics. The very language of the universe we spoke, the language of form, the language that beings of sentience tap into in defining the misunderstood cosmos.

I've never before related this to Majora's Mask but I'm seeing some parallels.

Where is Link mentioned? I, I, I, I, I, I, I.

there's a pretty clear male vs female theme in the game, even the gods seem to reflect this(the blasphemous imagery of stone tower). I wonder if the fact that link grew up without a mother, being raised by the deku tree(something of a father figure) influenced this?

and who said anything about link sleeping? dreamlike experiences and/or hallucinations can be brought on by dehydration, starvation, lack of sleep, drugs, or in a fantasy setting such as this magical means(majora's mask itself may actually be the trigger, another thought I had is that termina could be like hyrule's answer to silent hill, a real place yes, but it warps to reflect the mind of whomever enters it), near death experiences, meditation, any number of things really. I just think it's more likely than termina being a normal physical place all things considered, all the NPCs retaining the image of people link has seen before, lapses in logic(bank teller remembering you from...3 days in the future for one, happy mask salesman magically rescuing you from the apocalypse should you choose to allow it, a lot of things like the geography of termina are also markedly unnatural), so many of the games events being potential metaphors for issues that link or skull kid would have...

Totally. Termina may very well have taken place entirely in the Lost Woods. The Lost Woods. Perhaps Skull Kid was cast as the antagonist by Link's subconscious because his deepest fear was falling lost to the woods, becoming one. It's entirely possible (and probable) that the hallucination that is Termina was a trial of the woods themselves. Could Link overcome his own fears? Failing to stop the moon would have resulted in him possibly becoming a Skull Kid or Stalfos.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Or stalchild

 

[MuraRengan]

Reread:

Where is Link mentioned? I, I, I, I, I, I, I.

I was addressing your entire "conjecture" about Link's sexuality. Considering that that was the subject of the second paragraph that I quoted, I assumed that that conjecture was what you were claiming as your own introspection.

there's a pretty clear male vs female theme in the game, even the gods seem to reflect this(the blasphemous imagery of stone tower). I wonder if the fact that link grew up without a mother, being raised by the deku tree(something of a father figure) influenced this?

I wouldn't call the male vs. female theme clear at all. What are you basing this on?

Totally. Termina may very well have taken place entirely in the Lost Woods. The Lost Woods. Perhaps Skull Kid was cast as the antagonist by Link's subconscious because his deepest fear was falling lost to the woods, becoming one. It's entirely possible (and probable) that the hallucination that is Termina was a trial of the woods themselves. Could Link overcome his own fears? Failing to stop the moon would have resulted in him possibly becoming a Skull Kid or Stalfos.

Doesn't explain why Link leaves this place with the equipment he gains.

It also damages the worth of the other characters. The game put a lot of effort into developing the Skull Kid and Tatl. In fact, I'd argue that Tatl grows way more than Link does. All of that character growth goes to nothing if we conclude that the entire game was an illusion.

 

[Spire]

I'd argue that even the ending was nothing but a closure to his dream and that the equipment represented parts of himself that he collected. As was lost in being sent back to his childhood, he no longer possessed the Fairy Bow, the Fire, Ice, and Light Arrows, and the Mirror Shield. These significant items were rediscovered albeit altered into the Hero's Bow and the 'frightened' Mirror Shield by his subconsciousness.

It's ultimately whatever though. Believe what you want to believe. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, I'm just keen on exploring the idea of Termina being a dream-like state and I'm not alone on that.

 

[etecoon]

I wouldn't call the male vs. female theme clear at all. What are you basing this on?

majora vs fierce deity obviously being a starting point, the gods being the more overt example. the gods of termina are male and the people of termina(or ikana canyon at least) seem to have a deep hatred for hyrule's goddesses. as well as gender conflict it's possible link resented his fate as a hero on some level, being the final zone of the game, this might represent the darkest corner of his mind that he has to conquer.

 

[MuraRengan]

majora vs fierce deity obviously being a starting point, the gods being the more overt example. the gods of termina are male and the people of termina(or ikana canyon at least) seem to have a deep hatred for hyrule's goddesses. as well as gender conflict it's possible link resented his fate as a hero on some level, being the final zone of the game, this might represent the darkest corner of his mind that he has to conquer.

I'm guessing that you're taking a lot of this from Hylian Dan's old article. If so, you should keep in mind that the Triforce and the Goddesses are never referenced in the game at all. Hylian Dan's ideas are great, but they're still theories. I don't necessarily think that you're wrong, but I don't think that the evidence for a gender conflict is strong enough to call it one of the major psychological issues that Link might have had. Not only does this supposed conflict show itself at the very end of the game, it's not even a required event. The Fierce Deity Mask isn't even necessary to complete the game, so you can finish the game without ever catching a glimpse of the whole Fierce Deity vs. Majora thing. I just think the male vs female thing is a long shot.

In general, I'm not supporting the idea this entire adventure went on in Link's subconscious. There's no evidence of it at all, period. Contrarily, the game points out several times that people travel to and from Termina. Link did it, the Skull Kid did it, and the Salesman did it. Keeping in mind those two points, there is absolutely no reason to believe that this wasn't a physical place. Fabricated, possibly, but not a dream, not within Link's mind. We know little-to-nothing about what Link thinks, and to assume that that he has psychological issues is to assume that he is the kind of person who would be affected by those kind of issues. But we don't know that. All we know is what the game shows us, and the game places VERY LITTLE importance on Link at all. The importance is given to the Skull Kid and Tatl mainly. Seriously, do you honestly think the game developers would have given those characters such a detailed development throughout the story, while constantly mentioning that people from Hyrule can come to Termina and giving two examples of that in the game if they wanted you to think that Termina wasn't a real place and that the whole game was about Link's psychological issues? Or do you think that these speculations with no in-game back up are what the devs intended for MM?

 

[etecoon]

I'm not saying the whole game is about that, I'm saying it is one theme in the game, there are a lot of different angles to MM. you seem to be caught up on the fact that things aren't mentioned directly in text when much of theorizing is derived from other sources, the series' MO for a long time now has been to be intentionally vague and force people to think about their own conclusions. the fact that it's missable is irrelevant, you can skip a ton of things in MM, the whole game is sidequests, it's a result of it's unconventional structure.

they don't "constantly mention" people coming from hyrule to termina either, link, skull kid, and happy mask salesman are the only ones that are known to have done so. I'd also disagree that it completely diminishes other characters' importance...and I also already stated that skull kid may be part of termina's creation as well, in fact, those three characters have such a stark contrast to the rest of the cast that everyone else being dream characters makes perfect sense

 

[MuraRengan]

I'm not saying the whole game is about that, I'm saying it is one theme in the game, there are a lot of different angles to MM. you seem to be caught up on the fact that things aren't mentioned directly in text when much of theorizing is derived from other sources, the series' MO for a long time now has been to be intentionally vague and force people to think about their own conclusions. the fact that it's missable is irrelevant, you can skip a ton of things in MM, the whole game is sidequests, it's a result of it's unconventional structure.

I didn't say that you said that the whole game was about that. I said that the evidence supporting a gender conflict is so little that we've got no real reason to push it. The entirety of Hylian Dan's gender war theory stems from solely what's at Stone Tower and in the Moon, and even those two sources have nothing that actually addresses gender directly. I'll give you that the giant phallic obelisks at Stone Tower may symbolize some male proclamation of the rejection of the female gods, but it not necessarily translate to a gender conflict in Termina. Furthermore, the Fierce Deity vs. Majora has nothing (evident) to do with with the Stone Tower symbolism. They're completely different. And again, the entire idea that this is a dream is already farfetched, so theorizing that in this dream Link confronts his sexual demons because of Stone Tower (which is vague and inexplicit) and Majora vs. Fierce Deity (which is completely optional) is an way further longshot. I'm just saying, if you're going to theorize, theorize on what the game gives you. I think the biggest mistake we've made in this line of inquiry is to assume that this is Link in some dream. If we could use some evidence to see how this could be true, then I wouldn't have a problem with this theory, but it's a theory based on another poorly founded theory, so I feel obligated to point out what's wrong with that.

they don't "constantly mention" people coming from hyrule to termina either, link, skull kid, and happy mask salesman are the only ones that are known to have done so.

That's three instances. That's more than enough to conclude that travel from Hyrule to Termina is unquestionable. Especially considering that the three characters that did are very important to the plot, and each of their respective roles in OoT is referenced in the game. They are very clearly established as characters whose origins are outside of Termina.

Also, if we take the backpack I mentioned in the first post of this topic as proof that the Salesman in OoT is the same one from MM, it's also more evidence to suggest that Termina was a place, and that travel from Hyrule to Termina actually happened. Makes you really wonder why they bothered to put that backpack in OoT 3D.

(Also, IIRC, I think the Goron whose room you can take also came from Hyrule. I'll have to actually play the game to confirm it, because I can't find it online.)

I'd also disagree that it completely diminishes other characters' importance

Why?

...and I also already stated that skull kid may be part of termina's creation as well, in fact, those three characters have such a stark contrast to the rest of the cast that everyone else being dream characters makes perfect sense

I agree with the red, but not one before it. Like I said before, the game makes it pretty clear that the Skull Kid is the sams one from OoT, not a part of Termina's creation. However, I do think it's reasonable that some characters are real and others arent. Particularly the Skull Kid, the Salesman, and Tatl, but we need to establish an explanation for why those characters are real and the others aren't.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You mean that goron's name is Link, and Hyrule happens to have a goron named Link?

Because the Link in Hyrule hasn't been born yet at that point

 

[MuraRengan]

No I'm talking about the one who comes to the Stock Pot Inn on the second day. You can wear the Goron's mask and take his reservation. If you do that, he has to sleep outside, and it's there that I think he mentions coming from Hyrule to see the carnival. Again, I have to verify that.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I hate to be like this, but I hope you guys are merely doing this out of fun. Looking at it any deeper than at face value seems a bit silly. We all know Zelda isn't really all that thought out, they just keep similar themes with each other. Even Miyamoto said himself (I believe it was him) that each game will have inconsistencies and things unexplained because they are suppose to be like ancient tales told from long ago that has been messed with and partially lost over the years.