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Gun Control

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Eor

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No gun-control policy has ever been invalidated by a federal court on grounds of the Second Amendment. The court has stated that the modern day militia is the National Guard (Maryland v. United States)

I really do not follow your logic about how gun control voids the 5th and 14th amendment, because following that, any law would void the amendments.

Private ownership of guns in Saddam's Iraq was common, it didn't seem to help them.

Would gun control have stopped the VT massacre? No, Cho would of had to simply get one off the black market.
Black Market guns start out legal,then enter the black market through illegal means. If there are less guns, then there will less guns in the black market.
 

Crimson King

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The 5th Amendment states that we will not be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. We have the right to protect our own lives. By taking away firearms, then they are taking away our right to protect ourselves. If the constitution deprives that, then I deny the constitution.

Also, plenty of the Afghanistan and Pakastani weapons are homemade that can be made to fire AK47 rounds. The same exist in the U.S.

By removing firearms, you are creating a black market, just like when prohibition was around and just like how the war on drugs is failing. The more you outlaw, the more you make outlaws.
 

Eor

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The 5th Amendment states that we will not be deprived of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. We have the right to protect our own lives. By taking away firearms, then they are taking away our right to protect ourselves. If the constitution deprives that, then I deny the constitution.
You really seem so hellbent on gun liberalization that you are throwing away all other options. Guns are not the only way to protect yourself, and stating that they are is silly. In fact, having guns makes it 2.7 times more likely that there is a homicide in your home (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/329/15/1084)


By removing firearms, you are creating a black market, just like when prohibition was around and just like how the war on drugs is failing.
There was no buyback program for alcohol during Prohibition. Owning alcohol and owning a gun are completely different things. Drugs are smuggled in, they never start out legal in America, making them completley different from black market guns.

The more you outlaw, the more you make outlaws
Nice aphorisms, but unless you're arguing for complete eradication of laws, it means nothing. Rapists wouldn't be outlaws if their wasn't a crime against it, and I could use your quote to argue for that. Laws are needed for the protection of society.
 

FastFox

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I'm pretty sure that people that already break the laws won't have a problem with breaking more laws in order to get a gun illegally, if even more strict gun control is put into action.

I think that establishing firmer gun control is only hampering the everyday citizen who actually uses it for protection.
 

The Mad Hatter

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Black Market guns start out legal,then enter the black market through illegal means. If there are less guns, then there will less guns in the black market.
What I mean is guns will never be completely disposed of. People will construct them (assuming they became illegal) and then sell them on the black market. Yes they would be harder to obtain and more expensive but they will always be present. That is until we find a new way of killing each other.
 

Eor

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What I mean is guns will never be completely disposed of. People will construct them (assuming they became illegal) and then sell them on the black market. Yes they would be harder to obtain and more expensive but they will always be present. That is until we find a new way of killing each other.

Of course some guns will always exist, no matter what course of action takes place. Just like how drunk driving will always take place, no matter what laws are enacted. The laws on this are attempting to lower that to the lowest possible amount. Just because drunk driving exists doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws against it.
 

lonejedi

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There was no buyback program for alcohol during Prohibition. Owning alcohol and owning a gun are completely different things. Drugs are smuggled in, they never start out legal in America, making them completley different from black market guns.


As stated before, our borders with Mexico are terrible. It's very easy to sneak in illegal weapons, with little resistence. So let's say that we ban illegal guns. The Average amount of homocide deaths per year, is 13,429. We'll just say that 1 person was responsible per death. Do you know how easy it would be to smuggle out 14,000 hang guns into the U.S. If those people were willing to buy the guns legally to kill someone, I think they would do the same illegally. It will be very easy to buy guns off the black market.

You really seem so hellbent on gun liberalization that you are throwing away all other options. Guns are not the only way to protect yourself, and stating that they are is silly. In fact, having guns makes it 2.7 times more likely that there is a homicide in your home
The New England Journal of Medicine? WTC. What kind of source is that. They don't even give a reason, they just say that because they owned a gun, there was a 2.7 chance of likelyhood. I would much rather have a more Gun-Oriented company or group do a survey like this, other than a medical journal. I gurentee you that the majority of those carrying guns in that article, were also carrying drugs as the article also included, or how many of those individuals were releated in gang related violence, not regular house hold families getting attacked.
 

Eor

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As stated before, our borders with Mexico are terrible. It's very easy to sneak in illegal weapons, with little resistence. So let's say that we ban illegal guns. The Average amount of homocide deaths per year, is 13,429. We'll just say that 1 person was responsible per death. Do you know how easy it would be to smuggle out 14,000 hang guns into the U.S. If those people were willing to buy the guns legally to kill someone, I think they would do the same illegally. It will be very easy to buy guns off the black market.
I agree with Crimson that we need to secure the borders. I agree that any form of ban against guns would be terrible if our border with Mexico is how it is now.



The New England Journal of Medicine? WTC. What kind of source is that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Journal_of_Medicine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_journal

Apparently, it's a pretty good source.

What I posted was an excerpt, to see the full text you need to be a member.
 

Crimson King

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I am bowing out of this debate. Things came up that really make me not up for debating, but I will address two things.

Lonejedi said:
The New England Journal of Medicine? WTC. What kind of source is that. They don't even give a reason, they just say that because they owned a gun, there was a 2.7 chance of likelyhood. I would much rather have a more Gun-Oriented company or group do a survey like this, other than a medical journal. I gurentee you that the majority of those carrying guns in that article, were also carrying drugs as the article also included, or how many of those individuals were releated in gang related violence, not regular house hold families getting attacked.
Gun advocates will naturally lean their statistics in their favor. Now there is no proof this medical journal is completely unbiased, but there is a good chance they are just reporting the facts. However, a 2.7% chance of an accidental shooting is pretty big considering you have a higher chance at getting robbed.
 

Gamer4Fire

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I don't see how banning guns in a country that has a culture of guns will help anything. You'd upset a lot of people (myself included) and give untold power into the hands of the government. A government that currently has a modicum of control on my actions. How would you like it if I busted into your house and arrested/killed you because of some far fetched reason? Especially with all the rights violations that this current administration has already performed, do you really want to give up your liberty?

Drugs are smuggled in, they never start out legal in America, making them completley different from black market guns.
You're really funny.
 

Mic_128

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I still think that it is a matter of anger control far more than the ability to have guns.
Oh yeah. Over here a few months ago there were all these stories about road rage and people getting out of cars to attack the car and in some cases the driver themselves. Just think if thoise people were carrying around a gun for "protection." When you have someone trying to smash your car's window in with a mobile phone because it was there, you know if they had the chance they'd use a gun instead.
 

Gamer4Fire

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Road rage? In Oregon we have both open and concealed carry, and I have to say that we haven't had any of these road rage shoot-outs... In fact, we don't seem to have many cases of road rage. Come to think of it, weren't all those instances of road rage in SoCal?
 

Sandy

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CON 1

The Bill of Rights, the second amendment to the Constitution reads: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

CON 2
The Founding Fathers wanted the population to be well armed so that the governed would be able to defend itself from an assault on its liberty, whether its from an invading government or our own.

CON 2.1
The Founding Fathers did not mean just sport guns, they meant guns that could defend our liberties.

PRO 3
In 1994 Governor Weld OF Massachusetts signed a law that banned handgun possession for people under 21 in Boston. a year after Weld signed the law, Boston, riddled with youth murders in the early 1990s, began a 2 1/2-year spell without a gun murder of a child under 17.

PRO 4
The Treasury and Justice departments this week released a study that found that 18- to 20-year-olds, 4 percent of the total population, account for 24 percent of gun murders in the United States. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, a Republican, supports raising the age for purchase but not for possession. Many Republicans and some Democrats still opposes any rise in the minimum age. In a letter to Vice President Al Gore, Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder and Treasury Undersecretary James Johnson called for a ban on handgun and assault rifle possession and sales to people under 21.

PRO 5
Even the First Amendment has restrictions. Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you can say anything anywhere. Freedom of Religion doesn't mean you can sacrifice a virgin whenever you want. Using common sense can work with the Second Amendment too.

CON 6
Freedom has a price. For free speech the price is political dissent like flag burning, for freedom of religion you have to tolerate beliefs that differ from the masses. the right to assemble means that the nazis and clan can assemble too. The founding fathers felt that to protect these freedoms the population had to be armed. the price to protect freedom is sometimes tragic, like when a crime is committed with a gun. Reasonable laws can help limit these occurrences. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died because of cars, and there's no movement to ban them. is the right to drive cars that much more important than protecting our freedom.

CON 7
According to statistics there is 1 police officer for every 23,000 people in this country. Now how can that 1 policeman be there to protect me. The constitution does not guarantee us protection from murder or crime. It does provide us with a means to protect ourselves with the right to bear arms. We must stop trying to take hand guns away from law abiding citizens and concentrate on taking them away from the criminals. Hand guns are here to stay and no legislation can rid the world of them. Think about it, there is a law making it illegal to own and use many drugs. Has that law stopped the drug problem we have in this country.

CON 8
Even though there are statistics of gun violence, where are the charts of KNIFE violence or AUTOMOBILE violence? Not to mention deaths by screwdrivers, disease, baseball bats, crossbows,... and on. IF I really wanted to harm anyone, and a gun was not available at the time, the knife would be my next likely choice. IF a person really planned to kill anyone, that person would have found anything that would do the job. A disturbed person is more dangerous than a loaded gun, a gun is predictable, a disturbed person isn't. Submitted by Ken WIlson

PRO 8.1
I don't think liberals believe guns walk around and shoot people by themselves. What they do believe is that guns make killing physically easier, make it too convenient esp. when angered, allow a person to kill from a distance, and allows a person to kill many people at once.

CON 9
We already have over 20,000 gun laws on the books that are being ignored by criminals. In the Columbine High School tragedy, at least eighteen (18) existing anti-gun laws were broken. Does anyone really think the shooters cared they were breaking those anti-gun laws? By definition, does any criminal care that (s)he is breaking the law? Any law? What possible good can more anti-gun laws do other than to further penalize and harass honest American citizens who wish simply to enjoy their Constitutional rights?

PRO 9.1
Its obvious that someone who's willing to do a major crime like murder, isn't likely to worry about a gun control law. The object of gun control is to make it hard for someone that's likely to commit a crime from getting a gun and even harder to get a gun capable of killing dozens of people.
 

Gamer4Fire

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Your approach to debate is rather confusing. What is your unifying point? Where do you stand on this issue? And What do you think should be done about it?
 

Me14k

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I think the best way of gun control is a heavy sin tax on bullets.

The biggest defense for gun ownership is that people need guns in order to protect themselves, which I agree with.

Why would someone who purely has a gun for the rare, probably one time occurence of a break in/attack need to frequently be buying bullets?

We cant stop the black market. Most gun crimes are commited with guns from the black market. What we need to do is make it harder for people to obtain bullets for secruity guns (which per bullet range from 0.85-1.50 a bullet).

By doing this we arent hurting the commoner who wants to pretect themselves, we are hurting the criminal who bought a gun from the black market inwhich will need to buy bullets after every crime.
 

Mic_128

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If the people who use guns legitametly only buy a few bullets, and the majority of gun crime is from black market guns, wouldn't a tax be useless since they'd be buying their bulets from the baclk market too?
 

Me14k

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black market bullets are much more expensive than legit bullets. Many criminals buy legit bullets to save money.

In this situation we can use black market (which is always more expensive then the 'legit' market) to our advantage. If we raise bullet tax, black market will raise their price of bullets
 

Gamer4Fire

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Bullets can be reloaded by most any gun enthusiast.

Besides the fact that putting a heavy tax on bullets still violates the second amendment. Bullets are useful for target practice, with out which having a gun would be almost useless. They are also used for the legitimate sports such as hunting.
 

Mic_128

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I don't see how putting a tax on bullets violates that. You can still get a hold of them easily enough.

Not to mention that the black mraket guys might decide not to raisetheir prices. then people'll be buying bullets from them, and still dodging the radar.
 

Gamer4Fire

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The restriction of a weapon by limiting its use is an infringment of the right to bear arms.
 

Digital Watches

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The restriction of a weapon by limiting its use is an infringment of the right to bear arms.
Um. Utter nonsense and lies.

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

A. If you want to get technical, the reasoning behind "Right to bear arms" is clearly stated: A well-regulated militia. Even private gun ownership for the purposes of self defense doesn't really fall under the category of "militia," nor is it necessarily that "well-regulated."

B. Even ignoring that clause (which could be interpreted as "not part of the law," since it doesn't technically say that that's the only circumstance under which the right to bear arms can't be infringed) it says nothing about "limiting" the right to bear arms. A nuclear warhead is considered an armament, but if you keep one in your basement, the government is liable to not take kindly to your posession of it. Taxing bullets and regulating ability to randomly buy a gun isn't "infringing" on the very general right to keep and bear arms. Where the hell do people keep getting the impression that not "infringing" on one's right to bear arms means "Making no laws whatsoever that control guns at all?" Utter nonsense.
 

Crimson King

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Yea, DW nailed the second amendment not actually allowing us to possess guns. But honestly, I don't care. I have the natural right to protect myself by the law of nature. If a gun is how I see fit, then so be it.
 

Mic_128

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Guns aren't natural weapons. Rocks, clubs, teeth, claws, THEY are natural.
 

Crimson King

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I said it's our natural right to protect ourselves by the law of nature. Animals use what is equal to their attacker. If someone has a knife, plans to attack us, we should have a knife or greater to thwart this onslaught. That's only logical. Why should we put ourselves at a handicap by banning firearms when people who want to commit a crime can still get them?
 

Evil Eye

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Continuing on that point, this would increase the potential revenue in organized crime through the sale of illegal firearms since it would be the only way to obtain them. Not only would this result in more illegal arms deals, but it would attract other consortiums and groups that don't already have a stake in the country or region in question, such as the Russian Mafia in a newly firearm-less Canada.

This results in more crime across the board, not just in the sales of illegal arms. More crime means more taxes to higher more police, but we all know that law enforcement can't bring down organized crime, it can only stifle it. As a result, the general well-being of the region in question is brought down and cost of living goes up.

Higher taxes and cost of living will encourage residents to move to other areas. This damages the area in the form of reducing its tax base. Over the long term, this could result in even higher taxes to compensate. It also harms the area economically, as there are less people contributing to the job market. This results in a high cost of living, high need for employment area -- a slight benefit, since wages will be higher, but the infrastructure damage is significant, and not everyone will be able to find good, steady employment.

And I don't think I need to mention the general economic damage that comes from completely cutting off a huge contributing entity. Gun manufacturers and distributors bring big money to Canada, which already has almost unbearable red tape in possessing and purchasing firearms, making us very much not a gun country. Branch plants from foreign companies, our own locals doing their thing, distributors, guns are a good business. I can't imagine the blow the American economy would take with a knee-jerk ban to the scale many suggest. It'd be damn near crippling.

-I
 

Scav

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The entire American economy, because of handguns? Naw. It sucks when industries die, but even weak economies can recover. The textile industry was way larger than gun manufacturing, and it was wiped out, yet our economy is still around.

It sucks for everyone that loses their job, but that's like saying we shouldn't fight global warming because doing so would put everyone in Detroit out of a job. For a more drastic example, it's like saying we shouldn't try to cut off Meth Amphetamine production, because it would hurt Mexico.

The rest of your economic examples sound spot-on, though.

My opinion: anything that is designed for the express and obvious intent to kill people should be regulated. You don't use a handgun to hunt animals, you don't use a switchblade to open letters, and you don't use anthrax as air freshener.

(Ahh, the crude slippery slope argument. If my opponents are using smallpox, than I have the right accorded to me by nature to defend myself with smallpox.)
 

Digital Watches

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I agree with CK on two points:

1. We have a natural right to defend ourselves.
2. That doesn't limit us to "natural" weapons, that's ludicrous. While I'd love to see a world where weapons stopped progressing and other technology didn't, you can't really realistically have one without the other, and you'll never convince anyone to forsake technology entirely. That's just stupid. Defending yourself against a gun with bare hands/non-firearm weapons is possible, but only if you have extensive self-defense training for that situation and your assailant isn't a good marksman, doesn't have much experience with a firearm, and/or is easy to spook.

But nevertheless a very good point was brought up, not only in this thread, but by comedian Chris Rock. Bullets should be taxed heavily. Really, it eliminates a lot of problems, especially if we can get it working on an international scale. Creating an economic incentive would deter many crimes. While essays by Steven D. Levitt* have implied that introduction of an economic incentive can often eliminate incentives motivated by scruples, scrupulous individuals are really not the problem.

To defend one's home, one needn't constantly be buying bullets. They need only replace them when something happens, instances of which should be few and far between. At the same time, automatic weapons would be more difficult to use even if one could get their hands on one, since each bullet would be a heavy addition to the price. Repeat offenses would also be difficult.

Of course, there would still exist a black market, but again, it's already been said: The black market isn't about supplying guns to people, it's about making money. They may even sell bullets at a discounted price from the government-regulated taxed bullets, but their prices are going to rise as much as they can afford to.

EDIT:

Scav said:
(Ahh, the crude slippery slope argument. If my opponents are using smallpox, than I have the right accorded to me by nature to defend myself with smallpox.)
****. Good point.

*The book "Freakonomics" is full of interesting propositions, all supported by some data (though I'm hesitant to say that their hypotheses have been "proven" necessarily)
 

Evil Eye

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To clarify, I never said that America's entire economy would die, or anything equally silly. Merely that it would certainly be a large blow.

Also, I'm not against gun regulation, but I'm staunchly against gun banning. No, I don't think we should get smallpox because terrorists have it (although it would actually work better on them since we are pretty well innoculated to immunity), but I don't think if your common burglar can take a Beretta into your home, you couldn't have one to protect yourself. The idea that law-abiding citizens could not carry concealable weapons while the people that genuinely intend to cause harm are going to regardless of laws seems detrimental, or at least pointless.

But yes, regulation? Certainly! I don't want people with criminal records for assault with a deadly weapon and B&E running off to S.I.R. and picking up a Luger right after they get out of prison. And I do think there should be a little bit of a hassle to buy a guy -- safety courses and all that. You should earn the right to have a firearm in your home. And mandatory courses teaching you proper care of a weapon not only saves you from being one of those statistics that end up killed with their own weapon, but increase your chance of taking down the assailant in question. So they certainly shouldn't complain at the idea.

Perhaps for the real gun-nut regions, there could be a written test on proper care for weapons that would allow them to bypass the safety course. I'm not sure. I'm no legislator, so I don't know to what degree these should be regulated. My stance is simply that bans are a bad idea.

-I
 

Gamer4Fire

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Look up the word infringe and read Jefferson's expositions of the means and I'll get back to you.

You do have a natural right to defend yourself, of which the second amendment is an extension. But to say that we should then be allowed to own nuclear weapons is a strawman. Nuclear weapons are in and of themselves dangerous. And there is no means of which to defend yourself with a nuke. Thus the example is spurious.

But the defense of self and country is the point of the second amendment. You cannot hope to defend yourself against the government if it can choose arbitrarily to tax ammunition beyond the means of you obtaining it.

And to cite Chris Rock, an obvious comedian, shows a level of arrogance and ignorance that is absurd. It isn't without the constant practice, thereof, and use of a weapon that it remains a viable tool. And ammunition does have a shelf life as to not be imperishable. The delusion against both these points makes me believe that you have no experience nor background with which to debate this topic, and should therefore refrain from it.
 

Scav

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You know, I don't even think it would be that big of a blow :p certainly nothing like sugar collapsing in Cuba, and they even recovered from that. But that's beside the point.

It all boils down to a PR campaign. Do we regulate, or restrict?

Actually, I should do some research. When did it become illegal to possess a firearm in a liquor store? If liquor store robberies went down after that, it would make for an interesting case study.
 

Evil Eye

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I'm not sure if you'd want to extrapolate that kind of logic blindly, but I don't think the American people would be taking a moral blow if they couldn't bring their Glock when they buy a Slurpee.
 

Digital Watches

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Look up the word infringe and read Jefferson's expositions of the means and I'll get back to you.
Dictionary.com said:
in·fringe /ɪnˈfrɪndʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-frinj] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -fringed, -fring·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to commit a breach or infraction of; violate or transgress: to infringe a copyright; to infringe a rule.
–verb (used without object)
2. to encroach or trespass (usually fol. by on or upon): Don't infringe on his privacy.
Tell me where in that definition, or any, it mentions that any limitation is an infringement, then we'll talk.

You do have a natural right to defend yourself, of which the second amendment is an extension. But to say that we should then be allowed to own nuclear weapons is a strawman. Nuclear weapons are in and of themselves dangerous. And there is no means of which to defend yourself with a nuke. Thus the example is spurious.
Um, what the hell? Guns are in and of themselves dangerous too, and nuclear weapons are a quintessential example of "defending oneself." The dispute with Russia that recently came up is over "mutually assured destruction." It's the nuclear equivalent of self-defense. You don't nuke countries because they can nuke you back before it gets to them. Not having nukes (Or someone coming up with a viable defense against them, as the recent example demonstrates) destroys this balance, being that your country is no longer a nuclear threat, and therefore can be nuked without nearly the same backlash. It's not a strawman, it's an allusion to situations that have come up on a larger scale. Private ownership of a nuke could be argued to be one's defense against threats of government intervention. That doesn't mean that we should allow people to have them.

But the defense of self and country is the point of the second amendment. You cannot hope to defend yourself against the government if it can choose arbitrarily to tax ammunition beyond the means of you obtaining it.
Alright, tell me when you're ready to start the civilian uprising against the government. We're not talking about an oppressive regime being overthrown, we're talking about violent crime between civilians, and this would lower significantly with an economic deterrant.

And to cite Chris Rock, an obvious comedian, shows a level of arrogance and ignorance that is absurd.
One's profession does not invalidate one's opinion. To even suggest that this is the case is the most arrogant thing I've heard yet in this debate.

It isn't without the constant practice, thereof, and use of a weapon that it remains a viable tool. And ammunition does have a shelf life as to not be imperishable. The delusion against both these points makes me believe that you have no experience nor background with which to debate this topic, and should therefore refrain from it.
I would doubt that the majority of people who own firearms for self-defense engage in constant practice, and those who do could easily be accounted for by regulated ranges that provide dummy ammunition, usable in practice, but not for lethal force. And since you flaunt your superior expertise in the matter, give me an average bullet's shelf life (I'd guess at least a month), and then explain to me why a tax would not allow people to replace their ammunition on as regular a basis as it becomes unusable, and then how it would hurt to tax bullets, considering that economically motivated violence (robbery, etc.) could obviously be deterred by this sort of policy.

Protip: Ad Hominem does not pass for logic.
 

Gamer4Fire

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Tell me where in that definition, or any, it mentions that any limitation is an infringement, then we'll talk.
You are kidding me, right? Oh wait, you only took the first two definitions. Haha, "your bad." From the same website:

in·fringe (ĭn-frĭnj') Pronunciation Key
v. in·fringed, in·fring·ing, in·fring·es
v. tr.

To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.

You cheeky lout, you. An infringement would be a limitation or transgression on the right to bear arms.

Um, what the hell? Guns are in and of themselves dangerous too, and nuclear weapons are a quintessential example of "defending oneself." The dispute with Russia that recently came up is over "mutually assured destruction." It's the nuclear equivalent of self-defense. You don't nuke countries because they can nuke you back before it gets to them. Not having nukes (Or someone coming up with a viable defense against them, as the recent example demonstrates) destroys this balance, being that your country is no longer a nuclear threat, and therefore can be nuked without nearly the same backlash. It's not a strawman, it's an allusion to situations that have come up on a larger scale. Private ownership of a nuke could be argued to be one's defense against threats of government intervention. That doesn't mean that we should allow people to have them.
Again? You must be either kidding or slandering (or libel, as is the case).

Firstly, a gun is not inherently dangerous. It can and will sit on a shelf for an eternity without causing harm. One could take it apart, break it or put one together with out the fear of harming oneself. At the end of the day all a gun is are pieces of metal fit into each other to create a mechanical device. Nuclear weapons contain fissile material that can very easily make you dead just from contact.

You must be some lout to defend that a gun is somehow "inherently dangerous."

Second, I would like you to demonstrate how an individual would defend oneself against a nuclear assault. Although the concept of MAD works on a global scale, I can see very little reason for a common citizen to be allowed to own nukes. It seems more of an explanation of why nuclear disarmament is good on the large scale.

These would be the limitations of the definition of arms as it would concern the second amendment.

Alright, tell me when you're ready to start the civilian uprising against the government. We're not talking about an oppressive regime being overthrown, we're talking about violent crime between civilians, and this would lower significantly with an economic deterrant.
The point of having a right to bear arms is to forever forestall the need to ever rise against our government on the premise that we could if required to. That is what Jefferson wrote in many of his letters and speeches, that the second amendment was not just for the defense of the individual against marauder or to hunt for food (which is another reason why an ultra high bullet tax would be heinous) but to give the government pause to perpetually think better of enslaving the populous. Jefferson, as could be told of his writing, thought that the government would only work for mankind as long as mankind held the Sword of Damocles above its head.

One's profession does not invalidate one's opinion. To even suggest that this is the case is the most arrogant thing I've heard yet in this debate.
You do not deny that he is a comedian who makes jokes and hyperbole in order to entertain an audience. Unless his occupation makes him some type of expert on the subject, I don't see how one's proffesion would validate his opinion.

I would doubt that the majority of people who own firearms for self-defense engage in constant practice, and those who do could easily be accounted for by regulated ranges that provide dummy ammunition, usable in practice, but not for lethal force. And since you flaunt your superior expertise in the matter, give me an average bullet's shelf life (I'd guess at least a month), and then explain to me why a tax would not allow people to replace their ammunition on as regular a basis as it becomes unusable, and then how it would hurt to tax bullets, considering that economically motivated violence (robbery, etc.) could obviously be deterred by this sort of policy.
As above, case in point. You should, in general, fire your ammunition in use within a year. Circumstances will of course change the lifespan (such as ambient moisture, heat, etc.). However, as I've pointed out already, without the use of ammunition to practice ones trade atrophy of the skill sets in. But since you haven't set how much a tax should be, say one million dollars per bullet, then how am I to defend whether it would truly stop people from its use. However much a tax is, I still contend that it would be too much and that it is illegal to prevent one class of people from defending themselves because they are poor but allow the rich to do so. In the end, if a bullet tax was truly outrageous as you submitted by your Chris Rock simile, I would expect the home re-loading market to boom exponentially. Unless you intend to heavily tax chemistry and metallurgy as well?

Protip: Ad Hominem does not pass for logic.
Oh, you misunderstand me completely. I am not attacking you personally as a logical statement for my viewpoint. I consider you a complete idiot when it comes to weaponry because you have shown no familiarity, comprehension nor understanding of weapons, weapons use and self defense in general. I will not begrudge that you may be a subject matter expert in something else entirely, but it is quite obvious that firearms is not one of them.
 

Digital Watches

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You are kidding me, right? Oh wait, you only took the first two definitions. Haha, "your bad." From the same website:

in·fringe (ĭn-frĭnj') Pronunciation Key
v. in·fringed, in·fring·ing, in·fring·es
v. tr.

To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.

You cheeky lout, you. An infringement would be a limitation or transgression on the right to bear arms.
If we're using strict definitions here, I have yet to see a single word in that definition that is synonymous with "limit" (With the obvious exception of the word "Limit" itself, which is used as a noun and entirely in a different context).



Again? You must be either kidding or slandering (or libel, as is the case).

Firstly, a gun is not inherently dangerous. It can and will sit on a shelf for an eternity without causing harm. One could take it apart, break it or put one together with out the fear of harming oneself. At the end of the day all a gun is are pieces of metal fit into each other to create a mechanical device. Nuclear weapons contain fissile material that can very easily make you dead just from contact.
I think I misunderstood what you meant by "inherently dangerous," but really, anyone who has the means to own a nuclear weapon would at least have the basic knowledge of how not to kill oneself with it. The same is (hopefully) true of a gun.


Second, I would like you to demonstrate how an individual would defend oneself against a nuclear assault. Although the concept of MAD works on a global scale, I can see very little reason for a common citizen to be allowed to own nukes. It seems more of an explanation of why nuclear disarmament is good on the large scale.
I really hope you don't seriously think that I'm taking a position for the private (or governmental, for that matter) ownership of nuclear weapons. I used the example as a hyperbole, explaining that if you don't allow limitations on "the right to bear arms," then allowing for any sort of armament is a logical extension of such a policy. This differs from a strawman in that I in no way mean to imply that your side of the debate might favor private ownership of nuclear weapons.

These would be the limitations of the definition of arms as it would concern the second amendment.
Again, I don't see why you're willing to accept some limitations, but claim that others are infringements of one's basic rights.



The point of having a right to bear arms is to forever forestall the need to ever rise against our government on the premise that we could if required to. That is what Jefferson wrote in many of his letters and speeches, that the second amendment was not just for the defense of the individual against marauder or to hunt for food (which is another reason why an ultra high bullet tax would be heinous) but to give the government pause to perpetually think better of enslaving the populous. Jefferson, as could be told of his writing, thought that the government would only work for mankind as long as mankind held the Sword of Damocles above its head.
Which is fine, except that the problem of violent crime is still present, not to mention the fact that the original intentions of the founding fathers have been hideously corrupted, as demonstrated by the fact that we have a standing army during times of peace, one of the most powerful in the world, controlled by the president (this last part is outlined in the consitution). That's the reason we can have a full-scale war without the permission of congress to declare it. If there were some sort of civilian uprising, it would be incredibly bloody, and the US army would probably win.



You do not deny that he is a comedian who makes jokes and hyperbole in order to entertain an audience. Unless his occupation makes him some type of expert on the subject, I don't see how one's proffesion would validate his opinion.
A comedian jokes and exaggerates, yes, but that doesn't mean that the basic point made is not valid. I don't intend to charge $5000 per bullet (As Rock outlines in his stand-up act), merely a tax steep enough to deter purchase of bullets without an intended purpose. A person's profession should not be necessary to validate their opinion except in a court of law and other such formal proceedings. Don't treat this debate as something it's not.


As above, case in point. You should, in general, fire your ammunition in use within a year. Circumstances will of course change the lifespan (such as ambient moisture, heat, etc.). However, as I've pointed out already, without the use of ammunition to practice ones trade atrophy of the skill sets in. But since you haven't set how much a tax should be, say one million dollars per bullet, then how am I to defend whether it would truly stop people from its use. However much a tax is, I still contend that it would be too much and that it is illegal to prevent one class of people from defending themselves because they are poor but allow the rich to do so. In the end, if a bullet tax was truly outrageous as you submitted by your Chris Rock simile, I would expect the home re-loading market to boom exponentially. Unless you intend to heavily tax chemistry and metallurgy as well?
$1 Million a bullet? Of course that wouldn't work. Talk about strawman arguments, sheesh. I don't mean to imply that such a tax would make it difficult to buy a decent amount of ammunition, it would simply create an incentive to know what one was using the bullets for before purchasing them, and possibly rethink doing so. If ammunition lasts a year (on average), there's no reason a person couldn't buy new ammo yearly, and you still haven't answered my question as to why practice ranges with non-lethal ammunition would not suffice.


Oh, you misunderstand me completely. I am not attacking you personally as a logical statement for my viewpoint. I consider you a complete idiot when it comes to weaponry because you have shown no familiarity, comprehension nor understanding of weapons, weapons use and self defense in general. I will not begrudge that you may be a subject matter expert in something else entirely, but it is quite obvious that firearms is not one of them.
I do not claim that I am knowledgable on the subject of the specific use of firearms, etc. I doubt that most involved in this debate are either. People who debate the ethics of cloning may have no technical knowledge pertaining to the process. The argument that someone needs technical expertise on a particular matter to debate ethics pertaining to said matter in an informal setting is bull****. A disguised attempt to call into question the validity of the statements of someone taking an opposing viewpoint, when really, the technical expertise has nothing to do with the ethical question posed. It's almost a non-sequitur.
 

Gamer4Fire

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"It doesn't say limit except where it says limit but it doesn't mean limit." Weak.

Although I have patiently indulged your bleating and I don't mind straying from the path, you are strolling much far off topic than I am comfortable.

Back to topic, I have twice pointed out that this would discourage the lawful and useful application of firearms. And both times you insidiously ignored the obvious flaw in your plan altogether. I find it quite devious that you failed utterly to even attempt to evade the points.

I contend that firearms are used much more often as a useful tool than as a instrument of crime. Millions of times each year it is used to hunt animals, both as a means to sustenance as well as a sport. It is used many, many more times each year in the defence of the individual against crime than it is used in the commission of one. Firearms are also used in the Olympic sports, both the summer as well as the winter.

Motor vehicles are used much more often in a crime than firearms. Whether it is Paris Hilton driving on a suspended license or a felon with a license driving a stolen car away from his latest caper. Baseball bats, knives, tire irons, et al are also used in crimes. More people die by accident in swimming pools than by firearms. And there are those who would see all these items outlawed because they are used in crimes. However, all these items are used far more earnestly in their prescribed use than they are ever used to commit a crime.

Automobiles kill more people each year than most any other instrument. It has been shown that their use, as well as every other item cited, far outweighs whatever inconvenience they include. Such is the way with firearms.
 

Digital Watches

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I concede the point that hunting is a valid use of a firearm that is no doubt practiced more often than firearms are used in crimes.

And now here's an honest question that I ask because I don't know: Does ammunition for use in hunting rifles differ from the sort that can load a handgun? I think that we can at least agree that handguns are not preferred for hunting purposes, and concealable weapons are horrendously more likely to be involved in a crime, for obvious reasons. Is it possible to tax handgun ammunition heavily without imposing a tax on the ammunition for hunting rifles? I could see doing so, along with restricting automatic weapons to the military, to be a more moderate policy that would nonetheless have a desirable effect on gun crimes in the United States.
 

Gamer4Fire

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And now here's an honest question that I ask because I don't know: Does ammunition for use in hunting rifles differ from the sort that can load a handgun?
Yes, actually. You might be surprised to find that the 9mm and 45. ACP rounds are some of the most common handgun round as well as the most popular carbine (rifle) round. The same goes for .22, which is very common for hunting varmints with both handgun or rifle!

However, there are calibers that are not shared between the two.

I think that we can at least agree that handguns are not preferred for hunting purposes, and concealable weapons are horrendously more likely to be involved in a crime, for obvious reasons.
This is one of the areas where you are mistaken. Handguns are used extensively in hunting depending on the animal being hunted. Wild boar, for example, are almost exclusively hunted by handgun. It has more to do with how dangerous they are in close quarters making a rifle much too cumbersome.

And most crimes are not committed with the most concealable of firearms but usually most popular. So instead of .22s or .40S&W which are relatively small criminals carry 9mm or larger. You see, in that case it is how easy it is to obtain a weapon more than anything else.

Is it possible to tax handgun ammunition heavily without imposing a tax on the ammunition for hunting rifles?
Unfortunately, as I've illustrated, there is ammunition that is strictly rifle or handgun. They are also more exotic and thus not used as often in the commission of crimes. It would seem ungrounded to tax ammunition to keep it from being used in crime when it is not as likely to be used in a crime. The .50AE, for example, is a handgun only round that has never been used in the commission of a crime.

I could see doing so, along with restricting automatic weapons to the military, to be a more moderate policy that would nonetheless have a desirable effect on gun crimes in the United States.
This here is one of the reasons I was calling you naive. The gun control act of 1968 created the Federal Firearms Licence (FFL) which restricted the purchase and use of automatic weapons. All machine guns and assault rifles can only be purchased or used by fully licensed individuals and the government.

I do agree that we need an acceptable level of gun control. But I also believe that it had already been reached a long time ago. All these criminals that use guns unlawfully are just that, criminals. You would be impressed to find out how many Federal and Local laws they break by just possessing a firearm. Stricter enforcement of the current rules and greater responsibility of the citizenry are what I call for.
 

KevinM

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You know, I don't even think it would be that big of a blow :p certainly nothing like sugar collapsing in Cuba, and they even recovered from that. But that's beside the point.

It all boils down to a PR campaign. Do we regulate, or restrict?

Actually, I should do some research. When did it become illegal to possess a firearm in a liquor store? If liquor store robberies went down after that, it would make for an interesting case study.
Well i know its a bit off topic but Cuba hasn't fully recovered from the Sugar Industry collapsing plus the harsh trade embargoes that the U.S held on them right up until about 1991. In my opinion, Guns are already rather controlled and they're are a lot of laws regarding them. However the people that commit crimes using handguns are just that, criminals. If you want to stop the shootings then you would literally have to outright ban guns making your common criminal unable to get his hand on one, and i just can't see that happening.

Quite literally, we already have many different rules enforcing the buying of guns, your not going to be able to take down the criminals with more and more restrictions, most people that get around the background checks and other things they must run to purchase the gun are all set anyways. They are going to get the gun regardless of restrictions unless you outright ban the possibility of getting them in the first place.

Here is a possibility I've been mulling around in my head for a little though. A possible fix to the situation, though extremely ideal. What if after purchasing a gun you were only allowed to use that gun at specific places and from there you have to keep it stored at a regulated facility. Like if you bought a handgun you could take it to a shooting gallery, or a marksmen range and use it there and buy bullets to use from there, and after that keep your gun in storage. With this method people who by guns would still be able to use them, and the would be a lot more regulated then they are today without infringing on people's rights.
 
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