Greninja's Uair has a meteor effect at 0-8%...is it the first 0 to Death combo?

[RanserSSF4]

I didn't discover this, but a japanese player found out about this.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9bAKdN_Kc

From what I can tell, after you throw the opponent off-stage, if you fast fall your Uair, whether if it's on stage next to the edge or off-stage, it will cause a meteor effect, but only at 0-8 or 11% it seems. Not only that, but the properties of Greninja's Up-B pushes opponents away, making it impossible for characters with average recoveries (Bowser, DK, and Ganon), but characters with good recoveries (Villager, MetaKnight, and DHD) could still make it back.

Could this be the first 0 to Death combo we discovered so far? To me, I'm don't think so but it's really interesting and we need to test this if it also works at high %. This may end up being similar to the Metaknight D-tilt jac lock where it doesn't work on a few characters.

NOTE: This discovery has only been tested on Sheik and Rosalina. We don't know if this works on most or the entire cast. This requires more testing.

Personally, I'm looking forward to playing Greninja even more after looking at this.

If anybody has got the chance to test this on every character in the game, let me know below and I will update this forum ASAP!

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

I don't think that's a spike. Pikachu's b-air will drag players down in the exact same way, and so long as the final hit doesn't connect they'll be thrown downwards like we saw in that video.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I didn't discover this, but a japanese player found out about this.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK9bAKdN_Kc

From what I can tell, after you throw the opponent off-stage, if you fast fall your Uair, whether if it's on stage next to the edge or off-stage, it will cause a meteor effect, but only at 0-8 or 11% it seems. Not only that, but the properties of Greninja's Up-B pushes opponents away, making it impossible for characters with average recoveries (Bowser, DK, and Ganon), but characters with good recoveries (Villager, MetaKnight, and DHD) could still make it back.

Could this be the first 0 to Death combo we discovered so far? To me, I'm don't think so but it's really interesting and we need to test this if it also works at high %. This may end up being similar to the Metaknight D-tilt jac lock where it doesn't work on a few characters.

NOTE: This discovery has only been tested on Sheik and Rosalina. We don't know if this works on most or the entire cast. This requires more testing.

Personally, I'm looking forward to playing Greninja even more after looking at this.

If anybody has got the chance to test this on every character in the game, let me know below and I will update this forum ASAP!

The one on Rosalina is not a 0-death. She didn't use her midair jump and she angled the Launch Star forwards instead of straight up.

 

[Luigi player]

The one on Rosalina is not a 0-death. She didn't use her midair jump and she angled the Launch Star forwards instead of straight up.

It would obviously be used to catch others while trying to recover so a midair jump would not be present.
Also it looks like she can't angle her upB... (I thought she could do it at first too, but apparently she can't)

 

[Spirst]

It's not a 0-death. Sheik did a jump so I'm pretty sure she could've done an airdodge. If anything, it's like using any other move with a spike effect.

 

[Shog]

Casual Opinion about this: This looks so awsum

Btw why was Rosalina Recovery so horizonzal anyway? It looked really weird

 

[Chiroz]

It's not only at 8%. I've personally done it on stage at around 40%.

Also it isn't really a death combo. You can make it back.

 

[Ganreizu]

There seem to be quite a few moves that have "drag down" properties when fast felled. First metaknight's fair, now greninja's uair? I wonder how many more moves can do this...

 

[Chiroz]

There seem to be quite a few moves that have "drag down" properties when fast felled. First metaknight's fair, now greninja's uair? I wonder how many more moves can do this...

Pikachus Forward and Back Air confirmed too.

As a general rule, let's assume any multi-hit aerial that hits at least 3 times basically. (Although obviously not all of them are).

 

[[TSON]]

In Brawl there was a special angle called the "auto-link" angle that was unused (or barely used?) but it ended up being widely used for Brawl+ once it was discovered. The knockback power and angle were based upon the direction/speed that the character is moving when the angle is used. I suspect this was carried over and put in use for multihit attacks in SSB4 to make it harder to escape them.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle

 

[Spirst]

Yeah, this is to ensure that the multi-hit lands as opposed to knockback from the first hit sending the opponent off. From the video, it doesn't look like the last hit connects with either Sheik or Rosalina, so they were never sent up. Again, this is definitely not a 0-death and is based on reads and the opponents surprise.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It would obviously be used to catch others while trying to recover so a midair jump would not be present.
Also it looks like she can't angle her upB... (I thought she could do it at first too, but apparently she can't)

She can angle her Up B (I know this because she has a customization whose main point is that it gets more vertical distance, but cannot be angled), but it always goes somewhat horizontally. If she'd gone with a primarily-vertical angle, she'd have slid up the side of battlefield and grabbed the ledge.

In Brawl there was a special angle called the "auto-link" angle that was unused (or barely used?) but it ended up being widely used for Brawl+ once it was discovered. The knockback power and angle were based upon the direction/speed that the character is moving when the angle is used. I suspect this was carried over and put in use for multihit attacks in SSB4 to make it harder to escape them.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle

Thank you for telling me about this! It'll be a huge help to my PSA hacking. I'll finally be able to make my Lucario PSA's Extreme Speed and FAir work properly!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In Brawl there was a special angle called the "auto-link" angle that was unused (or barely used?) but it ended up being widely used for Brawl+ once it was discovered. The knockback power and angle were based upon the direction/speed that the character is moving when the angle is used. I suspect this was carried over and put in use for multihit attacks in SSB4 to make it harder to escape them.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle

Heh, I thought of this yesterday when watching the Meta Knight fair meteor.

Pretty much the only move in Brawl that had the angle was Wolf's Up B. I don't think any other documented move used it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Heh, I thought of this yesterday when watching the Meta Knight fair meteor.

Pretty much the only move in Brawl that had the angle was Wolf's Up B. I don't think any other documented move used it.

The only move? What a waste of potential! That should've been on Fox's, Falco's, and Sonic's FAirs, and on Falco's NAir, and on Snake's DAir/NAir, and on Mario's DAir and Up Special, just to name a few.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Combo....

In all seriousness, like other people are saying this is likely a side effect of the new mechanics for multi-hit attacks. Sheds some light on potential usage of it though, which is kinda nice. Can't wait to see what our community can come up with when we have time in the lab with the game.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

This is implying we'll have a lab this time around

Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the Brawl lab and would love to do that again for this game but it went through like 4 deaths and revivals before it died for good and the higher ups actually ended up completely wiping the board away. I sort of doubt they'd give the green light for another one

 

[Chiroz]

Combo....

In all seriousness, like other people are saying this is likely a side effect of the new mechanics for multi-hit attacks. Sheds some light on potential usage of it though, which is kinda nice. Can't wait to see what our community can come up with when we have time in the lab with the game.

I was able to do this on a Bowser Jr while on the stage at around 100-110% and combo into an Up-Smash for a kill. It is definitely weight/fall speed dependent though, I tried many times on Robin and she always bounced too high at kill %s.

 

[Gea]

So, is this the same reason that MK's fair spikes on the second hit?

 

[Chiroz]

So, is this the same reason that MK's fair spikes on the second hit?

Yes. Multi-Hits "suck" towards your movement direction. If you fast fall a multi-hit it makes your opponent fast fall with you or "spike".

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is implying we'll have a lab this time around

Don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the Brawl lab and would love to do that again for this game but it went through like 4 deaths and revivals before it died for good and the higher ups actually ended up completely wiping the board away. I sort of doubt they'd give the green light for another one

see what happens (^-^)/

 

[Indigo Jeans]

see what happens (^-^)/

As a senator you seem awfully optimistic

 

[Tristan_win]

Yes. Multi-Hits "suck" towards your movement direction. If you fast fall a multi-hit it makes your opponent fast fall with you or "spike".

.....So what your indirectly saying is there a chance for every characters with a muti-hitting aerial to have a spike? Including Sheik?

...oh my... That's going to be a lot of fun to test on stage and off.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

They're not really spikes since the last hit will probably have an angle that sends people on a 45+ degree angle.

The only reason this works with Greninja's uair is because the last hit doesn't hit the opponent (same with Meta Knight).

 

[Chiroz]

They're not really spikes since the last hit will probably have an angle that sends people on a 45+ degree angle.

The only reason this works with Greninja's uair is because the last hit doesn't hit the opponent (same with Meta Knight).

It does have a final hit though, but when you fast fall before landing the attack the last hit doesn't connect. I assume many of the multi-hits will have the same property where if you fast fall it before landing the attack the last hit won't actually connect. (And thus result in a "spike")

Note: I am not saying they ALL do. I am saying that we should assume each one of them does until we prove they don't on an individual level (Since we already know of 4 that do).

 

[[TSON]]

The only move? What a waste of potential! That should've been on Fox's, Falco's, and Sonic's FAirs, and on Falco's NAir, and on Snake's DAir/NAir, and on Mario's DAir and Up Special, just to name a few.

It would be impossible to SDI out of a falling attack using autolink that doesn't cause tumble unless it had tons of landing lag. Imagine if Wolf could do an 150% combo from just SH nairing : (

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It would be impossible to SDI out of a falling attack using autolink that doesn't cause tumble unless it had tons of landing lag. Imagine if Wolf could do an 150% combo from just SH nairing : (

You can still SDI the hit because it launches in the direction and speed of the character using it, rather than actually launching in the direction of the upcoming hitbox. As such, it wouldn't stop you from suddenly teleporting to the right and straight out of the move's multiple hits using SDI.

In any case, there are ways around that anyway. Here's an easy example: Give the move two different landing animations. If you land before the first hitbox comes out, you're stuck with a tiny bit of landing lag and nothing else happens. If you land after the first hitbox comes out, the move's short landing lag animation includes a final launcher hit, preventing the move from comboing into itself but still making it viable in other combos, for example SHFF NAir > sweetspotted Wolf Flash at medium percents. As you can see, the first landing animation is effectively an Obvious Rules Patch to prevent Wolf from using NAir immediately before landing to get a frame 1 launcher with no endlag.

 

[Tristan_win]

I learn some new vocabulary today and I found this

More evidence for how wide spread this effect could be for aerial muti hitting moves with finishers

EDIT: Holy crap this guy is a Japanese Smash scientist!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO2Rnr4ZzFvUaQvghl3c4wA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO2Rnr4ZzFvUaQvghl3c4wA

 

[Chiroz]

I learn some new vocabulary today and I found this

More evidence for how wide spread this effect could be for aerial muti hitting moves with finishers

EDIT: Holy crap this guy is a Japanese Smash scientist!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO2Rnr4ZzFvUaQvghl3c4wA

Sheik confirmed now too. Basically what we need to do is look for any multi-hit move and test them. I am guessing all multi-hit moves that hit more than 3 times and have a "hard hit" at the end will share this property.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I guess this is similar to Ness's fair now "dragging" people along with him? But ofc it doesn't seem to have as much downward knockback as these examples. (Then again I don't recall seeing a Ness fastfalling a fair at a timing like these videos).

 

[Kebiinu]

It works similarly to Smash 64's multi-hit attacks. Mario's tornado special has that "suck in" effect, as does Kirby's dair. Kirby's dair in particular ended strongly on the final hit and would often "spike" the opponent.

 

[Jellyfishn]

I discovered this while using Dark Pit's Fair in various circumstances. This might be possible with other characters that have multi-hit aerial moves.

Dark Pit's Fair keeps you moving with him at the speed he is moving at so you stay in the move until the last hit. By fast falling and cancelling in the middle of the move into the ground, the one getting hit keeps the fast fall momentum downward. This is fatal for certain characters, and hard to react to unless they know exactly what you are doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdyW9YdQ_U

While this is not an actual spike, "Sling spike" sounds cool so that is what I have been calling it.

This can be a very effective gimp on characters with poor vertical recoveries. It will be interesting to see if any other characters can do this.

 

[Chiroz]

I discovered this while using Dark Pit's Fair in various circumstances. This might be possible with other characters that have multi-hit aerial moves.

Dark Pit's Fair keeps you moving with him at the speed he is moving at so you stay in the move until the last hit. By fast falling and cancelling in the middle of the move into the ground, the one getting hit keeps the fast fall momentum downward. This is fatal for certain characters, and hard to react to unless they know exactly what you are doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdyW9YdQ_U

While this is not an actual spike, "Sling spike" sounds cool so that is what I have been calling it.

This can be a very effective gimp on characters with poor vertical recoveries. It will be interesting to see if any other characters can do this.

There's already a thread explaining this technique, although no one has named it yet:

http://smashboards.com/threads/gren...-0-8-is-it-the-first-0-to-death-combo.370015/



Also on certain characters and against certain characters this can lead into assured combos. I have personally killed a Bowser Jr at around 100-110% by Up-Air Fast Falling to the ground into an Up-Smash with Greninja.

I tried on Robin and Rosalina and it wouldn't work at 100% because they would bounce too high. Basically it works at very low %s while they stick to the floor and don't bounce and it keeps working until they bounce too high (or if they tech the bounce). So on lighter characters it's an assured combos at low % while on heavier characters its an assured combos until much higher % (assuming they don't tech).

 

[Jellyfishn]

There's already a thread explaining this technique, although no one has named it yet:

http://smashboards.com/threads/gren...-0-8-is-it-the-first-0-to-death-combo.370015/



Also on certain characters and against certain characters this can lead into assured combos. I have personally killed a Bowser Jr at around 100-110% by Up-Air Fast Falling to the ground into an Up-Smash with Greninja.

I actually just found that thread as I was browsing after I posted it! Thanks for pointing me there!

 

[Jellyfishn]

Dark Pit's Fair also works like a charm for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdyW9YdQ_U

 

[Chiroz]

I actually just found that thread as I was browsing after I posted it! Thanks for pointing me there!

I just edited my last post and added this:

On certain characters and against certain characters this technique can lead into assured combos. I have personally killed a Bowser Jr at around 100-110% by Up-Air Fast Falling to the ground into an Up-Smash with Greninja.

I tried the Up-Air Fast Fall combo on Robin and Rosalina and it wouldn't work at 100% because they would bounce too high. It seemed like it would work on them at lower % and as such I understood that it was weight dependent. Basically it works at very low %s while they stick to the floor and don't bounce and it keeps working until they bounce too high (or if they tech the bounce). So on lighter characters it's an assured combos at low % while on heavier characters its an assured combos until much higher % (assuming they don't tech).




As a name I was just calling it UAFF (Up-Air Fast Falled), that way you can write UAFFS (Up-Air Fast Fall Spike) or UAFFUS (Up-Air Fast Fall Up-Smash) or UAFF-Grab, which are all things you can do out of this technique.

 

[Jellyfishn]

Interesting. With Dark Pit's Fair, it seems to work at almost all percentages. I guess I will have to test more on different weights of characters.

 

[Chiroz]

Interesting. With Dark Pit's Fair, it seems to work at almost all percentages. I guess I will have to test more on different weights of characters.

The spike always works as long as you are fast falling with the attack before hitting the opponent. These seem to be the rules of the technique.

1. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.
2. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.

Basically you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent which means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall.

If you don't time it correctly you will either not hit your opponent or not be able to fast fall the attack.





What I was talking about specifically is getting an assured combo on stage. If you spike someone onstage they will either:

1-) Stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag.
2-) Bounce upwards (This can be teched)

You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as the opponent:

1-) Doesn't tech
2-) Doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)

So the weight and damage someone has will decide how high he bounces which in term will decide whether you can hit him or not. If your opponent always likes to tech the bounce you could mix it up to a tech chase and try and get something out of it either way.

 

[Jellyfishn]

The spike always works as long as you are fast falling with the attack before hitting the opponent. These seem to be the rules of the technique.

1. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.
2. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.

Basically you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent which means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall.

If you don't time it correctly you will either not hit your opponent or not be able to fast fall the attack.





What I was talking about specifically is getting an assured combo on stage. If you spike someone onstage they will either:

1-) Stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag.
2-) Bounce upwards (This can be teched)

You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as the opponent:

1-) Doesn't tech
2-) Doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)

So the weight and damage someone has will decide how high he bounces which in term will decide whether you can hit him or not. If your opponent always likes to tech the bounce you could mix it up to a tech chase and try and get something out of it either way.

I see what you mean now. This has pretty crazy potential actually.

 

[Chiroz]

Dark Pit's Fair also works like a charm for this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdyW9YdQ_U

I am now 99% sure that any multi-hit aerial will have this property.


Right now these seem to be the rules for this technique to work:

1. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.
2. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.


So as a rule you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent which means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall before the aerial hits him (assuming your opponent is on top of you).

If you don't time it correctly you will either completely miss the attack or you will not be able to fast fall the attack.(You aren't able to fast fall a multi-hit aerial after you've already connected a hit).

An easier way to perform this technique is also to just perform the attack while slightly above your opponent, this will allow you to fall on him once you start the fast fall thus assuring the spike.



Apart from the obvious spiking offstage properties, this technique can definitely lead into combos on stage too as most of these multi-hit aerials completely auto-cancel on landing. When you use this technique on stage it basically acts exactly as a spike with the following properties:

1-) Your opponent will either stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag. (low %)
2-) Or he will bounce upwards (This can be teched)


You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as:

1-) Your multi-hit aerial auto cancels on landing
2-) Your opponent is at low enough %
OR
2-) Your opponent doesn't tech and doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)


Even if your opponent techs the bounce you then get the opportunity to tech chase (as long as your multi-hit aerial auto cancels) which is very nice.


Note that at low %s you can use this technique to get some sick combos on stage. I've personally done Up-Air Fast Falled Grab into Up Throw into another Up Air Fast Falled Up-Tilt into a Forward Air (This wasn't exactly a "true" combo because Up-Tilt to Forward Air isn't a real combo).

Also at high %s if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce (and has a relatively heavy character) this can lead into kill combos. I also personally killed a Bowser Jr at 100-110% by doing a Up-Air Fast Falled Up-Smash (he bounced right into the top of my Up-Smash).

Another property is that, as we've already seen, on grounded opponents when the bounce is too small if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce then you can get a free lock combo on them (refer to the Metaknight video). Basically leading into 2 tilts + a strong hit of your choice on the reset.





I propose we just call this Up-Air Fast Falled - X (UAFFX). Where X is whatever you choose to follow it with.

Examples: UAFF-Spike, UAFF-US (Up-Smash), UAFF-Grab, etc.


Also by naming it this if we later discover that there is any character than can actually get an aerial combo out of this (Spike someone with it and then drop down with some special move or momentum changing aerial) then we don't need to name it something different, it could still be named UAFF-X (Where X is the aerial or special attack being performed).

 

[GrownCannoli]

Maybe we can Vector a Sling Spike into a Boost Grab.

Seriously though this has a lot of potential. I am glad to know you can spike in a new way in this game and I am sure this will be used.