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Greninja's Frame Data [Deleted]
- Thread starter KuroganeHammer
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PokemonyeWest
Smash Journeyman
I'm not super well-versed in Smash Frame Data terminology. What's FAF, WBKB, KBG?
KakuCP9
What does it mean to be strong?
FAF=First actionable frame (earliest you do another action)
KBG= Knockback growth ( how much more knockback a move does at higher percents)
WBKG= Base knockback dependent on weight of a character
Also there's a glossary of terms at the site.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I don't think Greninja is a rushdown character. Bait and punish would be more appropriate for him since being a rushdown character with that kind of frame data is not going to work very well.
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PokemonyeWest
Smash Journeyman
Bait-and-Punish, Hit-and-Run are both what I'd say
Thanks for the input guys, I'll change it when I can.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I'm also guessing Greninja's speed isn't maxed due to his frame data? It's odd that you gave Little Mac full speed when his air mobility is so bad if that isn't the case.
There's other stuff that's more subjective (I feel like Greninja's offense should be much higher due to how much damage he can dish out plus his overall not bad damage output, as well as his difficulty being a bit higher as well) but that's reaching nitpick territory.
There's other stuff that's more subjective (I feel like Greninja's offense should be much higher due to how much damage he can dish out plus his overall not bad damage output, as well as his difficulty being a bit higher as well) but that's reaching nitpick territory.
I've been meaning to change Mac from 10 to 9 for a while now.
The logic was "when is Mac ever in the air". It seemed logical at the time, then I decided that I only wanted Sonic and maybe ZSS to have a 10.
We have no good Greninja mains in Australia so I tried my best with the stat bar. Might bump offense up a bit still.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Haha, it's fine, Greninja is not a common sight.
Though ZSS and Greninja have very similar mobility specs (I think ZSS has very slightly better air speed and running speed, but a signifcantly worse fall speed a slightly worse walk speed, Greninja also has a higher jump) so Greninja and ZSS should probably share the same speed rating once you decide on what you're doing.
Other than the offense bump, this seems pretty accurate overall as difficulty is something more subjective so I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it.
ZSS has flip jump though and through weighted average much higher mobility specs.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Oh yeah Flip Jump
But still, is that so? I'm not very savvy when it comes to frame data and stuff (most of the time I just pretend I know what I'm talking about) but looking at the raw specs they seem to average each other out, though Greninja still has a significantly higher fall speed compared to ZSS.
Oh well, I won't bother you too much over this because it's a pretty minor thing overall.
KERO
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2012
- Messages
- 411
Not to mention that Greninja has Hydro Pump himself, which is incredibly useful for switching up Greninja's momentum (and if used correctly, is really difficult to punish). I can definitely agree with ZSS being right up there with Greninja, but I would not at all say she is any more mobile than Greninja.
One thing I definitely disagree with is that only slightly above average defense stat, however. Trying to approach a Greninja is extremely difficult just because of the sheer amount of options (Fair, Shurikens, jab, Nair, dash grab) Greninja has to keep people away or to get away himself (once again, Hydro Pump). Greninja is one of very few characters that is comfortable jumping around because he is excellent at punishing overcommitments, and being in the air, with his fantastic airspeed, allows him the flexibility to move just out of range of a move and punish. Additionally, all his zoning moves (Fair, Nair, and jab) have low end/landing lag given their range, meaning as long as Greninja doesn't overcommit himself, he's very hard to punish if he whiffs with those moves. Greninja's defensive strats have very little to do with utilizing his shield due to middling OoS options and instead consist of simply consistently outspacing and outranging the opponent. Our amazing vertical mobility also makes projectiles a near non-issue as 95% of the time, we don't have to rely on shield to avoid them since jumping over them is a perfectly viable strategy that leaves us with a much larger pool of options to choose from afterward. Thus, we're left with a character that is able to make most projectiles a non-issue (exceptions here being Sheik's needles, which we cannot punish, and Fox's lasers, which, depending on how far away he is, we can punish by running in and dash grabbing before he can spotdodge) while having a fantastic zoning/keepaway game (I legitimately believe Greninja can be played effectively as a time-out character. I've even timed out a small Mii Brawler before). I won't at all say Greninja has the best defensive options in the game, but they are definitely very notable and quite a bit better than his offensive prowess in my opinion. An unpredictable Greninja is an extremely difficult to approach Greninja.
One thing I definitely disagree with is that only slightly above average defense stat, however. Trying to approach a Greninja is extremely difficult just because of the sheer amount of options (Fair, Shurikens, jab, Nair, dash grab) Greninja has to keep people away or to get away himself (once again, Hydro Pump). Greninja is one of very few characters that is comfortable jumping around because he is excellent at punishing overcommitments, and being in the air, with his fantastic airspeed, allows him the flexibility to move just out of range of a move and punish. Additionally, all his zoning moves (Fair, Nair, and jab) have low end/landing lag given their range, meaning as long as Greninja doesn't overcommit himself, he's very hard to punish if he whiffs with those moves. Greninja's defensive strats have very little to do with utilizing his shield due to middling OoS options and instead consist of simply consistently outspacing and outranging the opponent. Our amazing vertical mobility also makes projectiles a near non-issue as 95% of the time, we don't have to rely on shield to avoid them since jumping over them is a perfectly viable strategy that leaves us with a much larger pool of options to choose from afterward. Thus, we're left with a character that is able to make most projectiles a non-issue (exceptions here being Sheik's needles, which we cannot punish, and Fox's lasers, which, depending on how far away he is, we can punish by running in and dash grabbing before he can spotdodge) while having a fantastic zoning/keepaway game (I legitimately believe Greninja can be played effectively as a time-out character. I've even timed out a small Mii Brawler before). I won't at all say Greninja has the best defensive options in the game, but they are definitely very notable and quite a bit better than his offensive prowess in my opinion. An unpredictable Greninja is an extremely difficult to approach Greninja.
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