Greninja's Counter...

[EchoesOfRain]

Anyone find this move a bit more difficult to use than other counters? Pretty sure other counters last longer an might be less vulnerable, but Greninja has always felt like a sitting duck whenever I attempt to pull off a counter. Sure, pulling off a counter allows Greninja to appear from any direction he pleases, but the attack is shield-able!? Having it harder to pull off + being able to shield the counter with ease makes Substitute a bit too lackluster. Anyone else think it could use a slight buff?

 

[Sosuke]

i think it's pretty useless

 

[PsychicHero]

I think Lucario's counter is the same but faster. I wish it was the same as marth

 

[Dimpus]

It has a few very specific uses. It really only works on moves with extreme ending lag. That being said it might useful for approaching projectile spammers that you can't beat at their own game (ie: megaman). You can counter towards the sky and it will place you very high up with your second jump intact.

 

[MikeSanti]

I find myself thinking, "He's going to attack, I should counter.", and then I remember that I am not Shulk (My Secondary) so I just pivot f-smash/u-smash/d-smash to punish them. The uses for counter are far too specific. You'll just have to position yourself well, bait their attack, and punish accordingly (not counter). The movement of the counter (after counter is successful) can be great when you're just trying to recover from a bad position but then again you have shadow sneak, hydro pump, reverse B, and down air (cancel to ss) to get away from any danger (and a wall cling).

 

[Spirst]

Greninja's counter is really eh. It does a lot of knockback, but it's way too situational and unsafe to be an actual viable option in most scenarios. I seldom use it much.

 

[Sosuke]

it takes forever to come out, has tons of lag, set damage, and isn't even too likely to hit

there's like nothing good about this move

definitely the worst counter

 

[Jmacz]

I only use it on certain moves like Little Mac's dash attack, it's a lot easier to time. I also try to have Greninja appear below them after the counter, for whatever reason when I do that it seems to throw people off more than when he's in front of them.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

So it isn't just me, thank God. Anyone know if there will be any balance patches for the game? That might give hope to improving Greninja's Substitute.

 

[Sosuke]

every one of his moves doesn't need to be good

 

[Spirst]

So it isn't just me, thank God. Anyone know if there will be any balance patches for the game? That might give hope to improving Greninja's Substitute.

Yeah, there most likely will be some balance patches but I doubt it'll be anything major. Greninja is solid enough even with a crappy counter.

 

[Treant]

I am so glad this thread exists. I thought I was just really terrible at using his counter. I am sad that it isn't good but Greninja is a lot of fun anyway.

 

[Chiroz]

Greninja's counter is literally the worst counter in the game. Tightest timing of all counters, longest startup of all counters and doesn't even hit as hard as most other counters. But it still has use, although limited. If going against some specific characters like Ike or Shulk countering can actually be effective (albeit you can time it right). If on the other hand you're against a character like Sheik or Mario I would suggest never using it.

It can be used to regain stage control or to recover but honestly I don't know if the risk is even close to worth to the reward in those cases (unless you're 100% certain you'll get it and then there's no risk at all).

 

[Her0Noi5e]

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I can get through a game and totally just not use it, because it takes too long, and is way too punishable.

I do, however, use it against slower characters, because the tells on attacks are a lot easier to catch, but even then, if 'd rather not use it, I just wont.

 

[Spirst]

Glad we could all reach a mutual agreement. In short, counter isn't that great.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

really hard to land yes, but just last night I landed the up counter on my friend then followed it up with an upair over the top border for a early kill (probably around 60-70%). I was also able to use it a couple of times against projectiles and spawn either over or under my opponent. I haven't been able to replicate this consistently though but it would be an amazing approach if we could as countering any projectile is much easier and just takes some getting used to the particular travel speed, if this could be used to teleport under the opponent and safely go for an exchange while staying completely mobile.

Now that I think about it and know I can connect an Uair with the correct follow up I'll be trying to follow up with up B after an upwards down B to see what that gets me.

 

[Jmacz]

Now I am kind of a noob so sorry if this is stupid, but is it possible that Substitute is only really good to use against certain characters moves?Like something with a lot of start up or ending lag so it would make them harder to dodge or punish you for it.

For example are there any moves who's end lag is longer than however long it takes for Greninja to appear and attack after substituting. Is something like this even worth looking into or is this pointles?

 

[bajisci]

It has its uses, especially against little macs that like to charge smashes (all of them). One thing to note is if a normal attack like a tilt or smash triggers the counter, the enemy will actually have their animation significantly slowed down by the counter, however this slow down effect does not trigger from countering projectiles.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

It has its uses, especially against little macs that like to charge smashes (all of them). One thing to note is if a normal attack like a tilt or smash triggers the counter, the enemy will actually have their animation significantly slowed down by the counter, however this slow down effect does not trigger from countering projectiles.

Good job in KTAR X. :D You should have taken it except for Diddy shenanigans.

 

[Jmacz]

Was just watching this video, the guy who this guy is facing uses a substitute to kill at 58% against Pikachu. If you're on mobile the clip starts at 26:04

Edit: Tried to recreate this and it didn't work for some reason.

 

[Chiroz]

Was just watching this video, the guy who this guy is facing uses a substitute to kill at 58% against Pikachu. If you're on mobile the clip starts at 26:04

Pikachu was at 61% before the hit and he was also at the very edge of the stage. Bowser's F-Smash for comparison would have killed around 40%.

Substitute is Greninja's 2nd strongest kill move from my own tests on characters, only second to U-Smash. But it's too situational and it's incredibly hard to land on an opponent that knows the move (As you can shield it after most moves).

 

[Jmacz]

Pikachu was at 61% before the hit and he was also at the very edge of the stage. Bowser's F-Smash for comparison would have killed around 40%.

Substitute is Greninja's 2nd strongest kill move from my own tests on characters, only second to U-Smash. But it's too situational and it's incredibly hard to land on an opponent that knows the move (As you can shield it after most moves).

Ahh you're right I don't know where I got the 58% from, still wasn't aware it could kill that early even from the edge.

 

[Choice]

i think it's pretty much only for moves that have long lag afterwards or if you want to use it to get better positioning

 

[bajisci]

Was just watching this video, the guy who this guy is facing uses a substitute to kill at 58% against Pikachu. If you're on mobile the clip starts at 26:04

Edit: Tried to recreate this and it didn't work for some reason.

I've also seen some seriously questionable "vectoring" from the japanese so I wouldnt be surprised if he was holding right.

 

[Coffee™]

What are everyone's thoughts on Counter 2(Exploding Counter)? It's quite a bit faster than his other two and the knockback is still pretty good.

 

[Spirst]

What are everyone's thoughts on Counter 2(Exploding Counter)? It's quite a bit faster than his other two and the knockback is still pretty good.

I haven't used it a whole lot but it seems eh. Still kind of slow and really situational. With the time it takes, I'd rather go for a usmash/fsmash/fair. It still relies on a good read and for that, I don't consider it all that better than the default counter,

 

[Sosuke]

the explosion one is the ideal one to use

unless default counter finds some real uses

 

[Blade Knight]

Personally I feel in some matchups counter is great for setting up combos, especially up to mid percents. The downwards stomp-like counter gave me a high damage combo vs Captain Falcon a couple of times in friendlies.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Personally I feel in some matchups counter is great for setting up combos, especially at to mid percents. The downwards stomp-like counter gave me a high damage combo vs Captain Falcon a couple of times in friendlies.

What move was he using that you used Counter so successfully?

 

[Blade Knight]

One time was an up smash and the other was a knee which he landed afterwards. As stated before, it only really works on laggy options, but I feel that with enough practice and good enough reads Counter can become a reasonable combo starter for Greninja.

 

[Vash_Ericks]

I find that against good people who know Greninja, it always gets shielded. The only time I do it is when I can predict their attack coming at me off the edge and use it as a recovery option. Explosive counter is the only one worth using because it mind games well with shadow sneak. It is still pretty risky though.

 

[jabronni]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Greninja's counter is best taunt in the game 10/10

 

[Jmacz]

Don't know if this is a good use for it or not but I've started using it against people with side B's like Yoshi, Bowser Jr, Wario, and Jigglypuff. I haven't seen then be able to avoid the kick, but they will try and bait it out of you after you use it a few times.

 

[Sosuke]

i've been trying to see how counter works against certain projectiles. could be the only use for it.

 

[PsychicHero]

i've been trying to see how counter works against certain projectiles. could be the only use for it.

It's halfway decent against Olimar. When you have a Pikmin attached to you, your counter auto activates. I think it works on megaman's crash bomb too.

 

[Chiroz]

Don't know if this is a good use for it or not but I've started using it against people with side B's like Yoshi, Bowser Jr, Wario, and Jigglypuff. I haven't seen then be able to avoid the kick, but they will try and bait it out of you after you use it a few times.

What do you mean? If they just keep rolling it auto avoids your counter. I am at least 100% sure Jiggz and Sonic does, I expect Jr's and Yoshi's too since none of them are so much slower.

 

[Jmacz]

What do you mean? If they just keep rolling it auto avoids your counter. I am at least 100% sure Jiggz and Sonic does, I expect Jr's and Yoshi's too since none of them are so much slower.

I've always figured I missed because I chose the wrong direction to approach from after the substitute. I'm guessing your right and if they roll through it you can't hit them, but wouldn't that also mean at the very least that depending on how close you are to the ledge that you could hit it no matter what?

I haven't really used it enough to know for sure, but I have been using it for a while to try and slow down people who tend to use those moves a lot. It just seemed like from my experience I either hit them or I go the wrong way and wiff badly.

I also had a Greninja ditto who landed a few substitutes on me when I tried to use a Shadow Sneak. I don't know if I just suck, but I ended up trying to bait it out of him so I could punish it but I wasn't able to shield it because of the end lag on Shadow Sneak.

I actually don't use it that much because everyone here has said it's awful, I'm just trying to figure out certain moves I can use it on without them being able to shield or dodge it.

 

[Chiroz]

I've always figured I missed because I chose the wrong direction to approach from after the substitute. I'm guessing your right and if they roll through it you can't hit them, but wouldn't that also mean at the very least that depending on how close you are to the ledge that you could hit it no matter what?

I haven't really used it enough to know for sure, but I have been using it for a while to try and slow down people who tend to use those moves a lot. It just seemed like from my experience I either hit them or I go the wrong way and wiff badly.

I also had a Greninja ditto who landed a few substitutes on me when I tried to use a Shadow Sneak. I don't know if I just suck, but I ended up trying to bait it out of him so I could punish it but I wasn't able to shield it because of the end lag on Shadow Sneak.

I actually don't use it that much because everyone here has said it's awful, I'm just trying to figure out certain moves I can use it on without them being able to shield or dodge it.

Sonic and BowserJr. can jump it. There's an angle/distance where if they jump they can avoid all 8 of Greninja's direction. That's without taking into account that jumping allows them to do any aerial so they could also hit you out of it.

Yoshi has perfect control over his egg so countering his egg shouldn't be as easy as planning it. He could bait you in many different ways and such.

Jiggz? Yea, if you counter her near the edge it's an assured hit.



As for your shadow sneak story, yes. Counter is faster than a good number of moves in Smash 4 (Ike's smashes for example) and as such countering those moves is effective. The thing is those moves are very few and in between. Unless you're fighting a character like Ike or Ganon you would almost have to not only predict your opponent's action but also the specific move he is going to use, which is hard. Also some characters like Sheik or Yoshi (excluding side-B) simply lack any move where counter would be effective. And against the moves that it might be effective like Yoshi's down-B there are much better punishes like Up-Smash or Up-B.



Counter can be used effectively as long as you can predict that your opponent's next attack will be slower than counter itself. For the very hardest counter to land in the whole game, this seems like a stupid pre-requisite.

 

[AetherStorm]

I've found counter to be quite useful actually. It can be used to approach/recover, and has some weird gimpy properties too. At one point, I KO'd another greninja at 42% with an upward counter. I haven't tested it, but I'm guessing upcounter to uair/fair could be a nice followup.

 

[T0MMY]

One use for Substitute I found quite useful is actually not to counter hit, I just use it in the air to mix up my falling speed. It's usually enough on good players they will be thrown off just enough for me to find a nice escape route.