Greninja Patch 1.0.4 changes

[KERO]

But the Cstick is going to essentially make that a non-issue, isn't it? Also, as you mentioned before, it's a universal change. I feel you might want to at least make a separate category for universal changes so that it doesn't look like it just applies to Greninja.

 

[MartinAW4]

But the Cstick is going to essentially make that a non-issue, isn't it? Also, as you mentioned before, it's a universal change. I feel you might want to at least make a separate category for universal changes so that it doesn't look like it just applies to Greninja.

Yes, the Cstick should solve the problem. But I`m going to leave it in the nerf category because even though everyone is affected by it equally, it is still a nerf compared to version 1.0.3.

Also I`ve got some good news. Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling seems to be still in. I just escaped the second hit of Sheik`s Fsmash with it and killed her with a backwards SS hit.

 

[bajisci]

Yes, the Cstick should solve the problem. But I`m going to leave it in the nerf category because even though everyone is affected by it equally, it is still a nerf compared to version 1.0.3.

Also I`ve got some good news. Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling seems to be still in. I just escaped the second hit of Sheik`s Fsmash with it and killed her with a backwards SS hit.

...what, seriously? The best test for this is ZSS or link's fsmash, mash side b as soon as the first hit of either fsmash hit you.

 

[MartinAW4]

...what, seriously? The best test for this is ZSS or link's fsmash, mash side b as soon as the first hit of either fsmash hit you.

It`s definitely still in. I just cancelled the second hit from Sheik`s Fsmash two more times as well as the hitstun from needles and grenade. I also tried it against ZSS Fsmash and it worked as well.

 

[Lavani]

I didn't believe it at first either since all the other hitstun cancels were removed, but I confirmed it against shulk dthrow as well as both the first and second hits of fsmash.

That's actually pretty cool that Greninja got to keep that.

 

[MartinAW4]

Maybe we could negotiate a trade with Sakurai. We let him take away the SS hitstun cancelling but he has to give us back our beloved low lag Usmash and Water Shurikens.

 

[bajisci]

Why the absolute **** is that still in hte game but no other WAY more obscure bugs

 

[Ticker]

Maybe we could negotiate a trade with Sakurai. We let him take away the SS hitstun cancelling but he has to give us back our beloved low lag Usmash and Water Shurikens.

I heard Sakurai requires sacrifices.

 

[MartinAW4]

I heard Sakurai requires sacrifices.

We could sacrifice our Substitute doll. At least it will finally have a competitive use.

Edit: I just noticed another buff to SS. Its shadow now travels around 20% faster. In v 1.0.3 it took 1.2 seconds for the shadow to reach max range (the range didn`t change) while in v 1.0.4 it takes exactly 1 second.
This will be useful when recovering to reach the stage sooner, for dodging projectiles more easily and for landing SS from behind the opponent with lower charge time since the shadow appears behind them sooner.

Seeing as how our best kill options (Usmash, Uair, Fair) all got heavily nerfed, SS might actually become a very viable kill move. The backwards SS hit can kill Mario from the edge of FD at 89% which makes it stronger than our strongest smash attack Fsmash which kills at 93% when uncharged under the same conditions.

 

[Doodle Dork]

It seems like the up-smash tip doesn't sweetspot anymore, more often than not it will only hit your opponent with the 2nd hit that does only 5%. It's now impossible to sweetspot from below battlefields platforms. Greninja loses a lot of advantage since the platforms will only get in your way...

I'm really bummed out about all these changes. I hope they will fix Uair in particular, since its now completely useless for KOing. And what's the point adding this much endlag to shurikens? As of now it's extremely hard to follow up with a grab or anything else. It was a good projectile, but not enough to actually needing a nerf.

 

[Nabbitnator]

It seems like the up-smash tip doesn't sweetspot anymore, more often than not it will only hit your opponent with the 2nd hit that does only 5%. It's now impossible to sweetspot from below battlefields platforms. Greninja loses a lot of advantage since the platforms will only get in your way...

I'm really bummed out about all these changes. I hope they will fix Uair in particular, since its now completely useless for KOing. And what's the point adding this much endlag to shurikens? As of now it's extremely hard to follow up with a grab or anything else. It was a good projectile, but not enough to actually needing a nerf.

I knew I wasn't going crazy so upsmash doesn't hit consistently anymore. That's really crappy...

 

[bajisci]

Usmash never worked when your opponent was standing on bf platforms above like 5-10%

 

[heavylobsterguy]

Man, Greninja used to be so much fun with all the shenanigans he had. Now he's so bland with most of his tools being gone or overly nerfed. l mean, was there even a reason to nerf the knockback on fair and uair? And my favorite thing, push pumping, now sends the opponent a piddling distance.

 

[Karasu]

Back to SS:
Since Shadow Sneak got a huge buff I asked myself if the Custom-Shadows (or any other custom-move) got one too?
Can anyone test that?

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

I can't test right now, not at home. Can the new u-air combo into d-smash? And how badly was push pumping nerfed? I can learn to deal with laggy u smash, shurikens will mean we no longer have good match ups accross the board however.

 

[heavylobsterguy]

Shadow Dash also has similarly decreased aerial lag. Shadow Strike still has tons of aerial lag though. Now that Shadow Sneak lost two big advantages over Shadow Dash (landing lag cancel while actually hitting the guy next to you and the fast fall into ground), the latter might be the best custom side b now.

 

[Phill-Bot]

What are: Running Shadow Sneak, Platform Shadow Sneak and Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling?

 

[1up_Regal]

If you guys want a more precise number about SS's shadow, it travels approximately 16.67% faster.

NVM, did some wrong math. its exactly 20%

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

We could sacrifice our Substitute doll. At least it will finally have a competitive use.

Edit: I just noticed another buff to SS. Its shadow now travels around 20% faster. In v 1.0.3 it took 1.2 seconds for the shadow to reach max range (the range didn`t change) while in v 1.0.4 it takes exactly 1 second.
This will be useful when recovering to reach the stage sooner, for dodging projectiles more easily and for landing SS from behind the opponent with lower charge time since the shadow appears behind them sooner.

Seeing as how our best kill options (Usmash, Uair, Fair) all got heavily nerfed, SS might actually become a very viable kill move. The backwards SS hit can kill Mario from the edge of FD at 89% which makes it stronger than our strongest smash attack Fsmash which kills at 93% when uncharged under the same conditions.

I have been finding success with Dsmash for KOing these days

 

[bajisci]

Our character feels kinda mid tier now.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Yeah, chill out guys... the nerfs aren't unreasonable, and are certainly no reason to drop the character completely.

I actually got the play the Wii U version last night, and played mostly Greninja. Running u-smash is indeed super easy to do with a C-stick, as expected.

Shadow Sneak buff is nice. It also FEELS like it kills earlier (although this may just be due to the removal of vectoring), which is really awesome, because with u-smash nerfed, having another semi-reliable kill move is great.

Also, grab might have more range? Pivot grabs in particular are huuuuuge and it feels great.

Grab range does feel slightly larger, but Indont have a way to test. Even so the amount seems small

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Finally got to put some testing time in so I thought I would post my two cents. I'll avoid talking about the nerfs because we all already know the losses and applications so instead I'll focus on buffs and gameplay changes for Greninja.

First, no VI makes combining much easier at low percentage, when combined with the new U-Spike you can usually rack up a lot of damage. have done D-Tilt, u-throw(it connects at low percentage), u-air, u-tilt, u smash for 40%.

His new SS is significantly better than first appears. It's a ludicrously powerful OOS option, given its range power an kill potential. But even more amazing is it can now be used to secure kills off stage, which plain couldn't have even been attempted safely in 1.0.3. Ring able to chase so far off stage helps get back some of the lost kill power, as you can go really deep with this and still make it back using a second jump and SS. It should be noted though that it takes quite a while to get used to, so practice is recommended.

Lastly, his D-smash is just plain good now. It was already his second best smash next to U-smash, but to be fair his U-smash post nerf was his all round tool for nearly everything so I can understand the shifting of power to his D-smash.

Overall he feels a little weaker, you can't really just spam your best stuff and expect a win anymore. All his moves are more situational but for the most part have their place, an he still has one of the most diverse kits in the game. I believe that SS gimping will become pretty important to his gameplay now, but as with most the time it's used don't spam it, keep using as a mix up, especially since your opponent can not see the shadow off a ledge.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Finally got to put some testing time in so I thought I would post my two cents. I'll avoid talking about the nerfs because we all already know the losses and applications so instead I'll focus on buffs and gameplay changes for Greninja.

First, no VI makes combining much easier at low percentage, when combined with the new U-Spike you can usually rack up a lot of damage. have done D-Tilt, u-throw(it connects at low percentage), u-air, u-tilt, u smash for 40%.

His new SS is significantly better than first appears. It's a ludicrously powerful OOS option, given its range power an kill potential. But even more amazing is it can now be used to secure kills off stage, which plain couldn't have even been attempted safely in 1.0.3. Ring able to chase so far off stage helps get back some of the lost kill power, as you can go really deep with this and still make it back using a second jump and SS. It should be noted though that it takes quite a while to get used to, so practice is recommended.

Lastly, his D-smash is just plain good now. It was already his second best smash next to U-smash, but to be fair his U-smash post nerf was his all round tool for nearly everything so I can understand the shifting of power to his D-smash.

Overall he feels a little weaker, you can't really just spam your best stuff and expect a win anymore. All his moves are more situational but for the most part have their place, an he still has one of the most diverse kits in the game. I believe that SS gimping will become pretty important to his gameplay now, but as with most the time it's used don't spam it, keep using as a mix up, especially since your opponent can not see the shadow off a ledge.

This. Been playing around with him, and I back all of this up.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Greninja still holds a lot of combo potential especially with the game DI mechanics being changed. His hydro pump is still reliable you just have to make sure to angle the water to exactly where they are recovering so they could pushed back away from the stage as much as possible. So aiming and doing the right reads are the way to go. DSmash is so much better too.

 

[Marilink]

You know, something I haven't seen mentioned yet: If Vectoring is out, and old-fashioned DI is in, that means that Crouch Canceling is back. Does this make CC > Dtilt a possibility now, or does Crouch Cancelling function differently in Smash 4? (edit: I did some training mode testing of my own, and it could definitely work at super low percents. But most attacks will still stand you up, so it's not going to be as instantaneous/awesome as like Melee/PM Roy's CC>Dtilt. It's still worth keeping in mind, though.)

Also, y'all need to calm down. Greninja is still a very good character. Just adapt to the changes. If you're going to play a character the exact same way before and after a balance patch, you're doing it wrong. I'm not happy about the nerfs either, but It's fairly apparent that Greninja is still a hella strong character.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

is there any documented and credible confirmed basis to back up old DI being back? if so I am very eager and interested to see it

 

[Marilink]

His new SS is significantly better than first appears. It's a ludicrously powerful OOS option, given its range power an kill potential. But even more amazing is it can now be used to secure kills off stage, which plain couldn't have even been attempted safely in 1.0.3. Ring able to chase so far off stage helps get back some of the lost kill power, as you can go really deep with this and still make it back using a second jump and SS. It should be noted though that it takes quite a while to get used to, so practice is recommended.

This intrigues me. It's almost like Greninja has his own offstage Bouncing Fish KO option now. I like the sound of that...

 

[FullMoon]

Can someone please teach me how to do the U-Air spike? No matter how hard I try I never get it to work, considering how useful it seems for combos, I really want to learn it.

The new Shadow Sneak discoveries are nice though.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

is there any documented and credible confirmed basis to back up old DI being back? if so I am very eager and interested to see it

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn-of-a-new-day-vectoring-mostly-removed-in-patch-1-0-4.378709/

 

[Lavani]

Good news, everyone! The knockback on both of Shadow Sneak's kicks was buffed!

...by a change of +1 KBG to the back kick and +2 to the front kick.

Front kick launch speed: 139→141
Back kick launch speed: 156→157

So, uh, yeah. Woohoo?

 

[bajisci]

Good news, everyone! The knockback on both of Shadow Sneak's kicks was buffed!

...by a change of +1 BKB to both kicks.

Front kick launch speed: 139→141
Back kick launch speed: 156→157

So, uh, yeah. Woohoo?

Hey man I'll take anything at this point lol

 

[Funkermonster]

Seriously, Greninja is going to be a mid/low tier now.
I DO hope he will be buffed again, now he just can't be played anymore.

You do know the game is still only 2 months old, right? FGs take years to settle, and its far too early to even be making official tiers at all. I think you are greatly overestimating the nerfs when not only are they less drastic than you make them out to be, but its too early in the game's lifespan to determine tiers anyway. Wait until the longterm run before making assumptions like that, plz.

In my prediction, he's been nerfed, but not to the point of getting kicked out of high tier.

 

[bajisci]

Sorry to break it to you but the nerfs are that drastic, at least, he cant be nearly aggressive as he could be before.

 

[BlitzMaster2000]

Is the Basic jab different? I could have sworn it had a watery aesthetic...

 

[Karasu]

Ok, last question:
Did any of the other custom-moves get buffed/nerfed?
Shadow-Dash has less endlagg, is that true? Nothing changed about Shadow-Strike?
All of the Shuriken now have a bit more endlagg. Nothing else?
Sub didn't get anything, but what about the other 2 alternatives?

If we have looked at all the Custom then we should have gathered all changes to Greninja.

 

[Funkermonster]

Can someone please teach me how to do the U-Air spike? No matter how hard I try I never get it to work, considering how useful it seems for combos, I really want to learn it.

The new Shadow Sneak discoveries are nice though.

That's what I wanna kow. I was told you have to do this:

1) Perform Uair
2) Fastfall immediately after initiating it
3) Snag your opponent

I was told you have to be right on top of your opponents in order for it to work. I personally find it very difficult to do this consistently and whenever I get it right its by luck. Hope it works for you more than me at least..

 

[Marilink]

The trick is to fastfall soon enough to only hit with the first 3 hits of the move. If you execute it correctly, it should feel like you're "pulling" your opponent into the ground.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

You have to fast fall first and then upair to utilt and repeat.

 

[KERO]

So, something I just picked up on. I'm about 88% sure that you could Hydro Pump through platforms in 1.0.3. However, now, Hydro Pump will not hit through even platforms that aren't solid.

 

[Funkermonster]

Fastfall before an Uair? Probably will be easier with a cstick, thanks. Good thing Wii U comes out tomorrow, the hype is real!