Grenades: Psychological Advantage

[OverLade]

Snake is too good, we all know that. Snake is so good that his Utilt and Forward tilt have almost become cliche. But one of the thins that really seems to throw people off that shouldn't...is grenades.

But isn't that all part of it really? I think a lot of people have trouble fighting snake simply because they're intimidated. Of course, nobody wants to approach snake head on, but when snake drops a few grenades on the ground, most people stop in their tracks. Snakes grenades don't blow up when you touch them, and they put snake in JUST AS MUCH DANGER as you are in really. And people don't seem to realize that when snake is pulling out grenades, you can GRAB HIM. You can also grab the grenades and throw them back at him. But some people will stop in their tracks as soon as the nades are out.

FACTS:
1. You can shield grenades, snake players do it all the time to piss you off.
2. You can grab grenades.
3. Grenades can hurt snake too.
4. Snake is vulnerable when he pulls out grenades.
5. If you pressure snake enough, he'll think twice about trying to nade camp.
6. Lots of characters can outcamp snake. If you can't, then pick up someone who can.
7. Be patient, most of the time grenades sit there, and if he throws them, shield or sidestep them. Approach slowly and DON'T attack the grenades.

Grenades are good, but I think the fear of the grenades themselves is really unecessary. You'll catch a lot of snake players off guard if you bypass his grenades and grab him. It will make snake a lot easier to fight for higher tier characters with speed (Metaknight, Falco, Fox, wario).

Just a few things I noticed recently in some snake matches. Feel free to add any thoughts.

 

[MuBa]

1. Go ahead and shield the grenades. It's not going to affect Snake but it'll stop you in your tracks and he'll do something to retaliate.

2. You can grab grenades, but they will be dropped by Snake when he pulls out another grenade and shields it OR he'll be throwing them when they are cooked.

3. Well that's obvious, that's Snake throws grenades towards the opponent, preferrably when they are cooked to prevent retaliation.

4. Snake may be vulnerable when he has grenades out but so is the opponent. Chances are the opponent will end up dying at higher percents since Snake is like one of the heaviest characters in the game. Or perhaps Snake would end up taking no knockback if he's in the higher controller ports when grabbing while a grenade is down next to him. (Like #4)

5 & 6. That's all stage dependant. A smart Snake will know how to work around without grenades. It's more than just grenades that makes Snake a powerful character.

7. While you approach slowly Snake will be pulling out other moves to screw you over, like a mortar slide.

 

[OverLade]

1. Go ahead and shield the grenades. It's not going to affect Snake but it'll stop you in your tracks and he'll do something to retaliate.

2. You can grab grenades, but they will be dropped by Snake when he pulls out another grenade and shields it OR he'll be throwing them when they are cooked.

3. Well that's obvious, that's Snake throws grenades towards the opponent, preferrably when they are cooked to prevent retaliation.

4. Snake may be vulnerable when he has grenades out but so is the opponent. Chances are the opponent will end up dying at higher percents since Snake is like one of the heaviest characters in the game. Or perhaps Snake would end up taking no knockback if he's in the higher controller ports when grabbing while a grenade is down next to him. (Like #4)

5 & 6. That's all stage dependant. A smart Snake will know how to work around without grenades. It's more than just grenades that makes Snake a powerful character.

7. While you approach slowly Snake will be pulling out other moves to screw you over, like a mortar slide.

Well the whole idea is pressuring snake so he can't cook grenades. If he pulls out a grenade, grab him, or always stay close enough where he can't risk taking one out. And similarly to snake taking no knockback with controller ports, same applys to the attacker. And grabbing the second grenade solves the dropping problem, since one grenade isn't that much of a threat to concentrate on.

And while Mortar slide is annoying at closer ranges, you can grab snake straight out of it.

 

[Moustachio]

There are a few easy ways a good Snake player can do to avoid being grabbed when they want to use grenades.

1. Spot dodge, ftilt the grabber, drop pick up and throw the grenade.
2. Drop and then grab the grenade, short hop to avoid being grabbed, throw grenade down while still in the air, then shield to protect yourself from the explosion.
3. Drop a grenade, roll behind the opponent while they are attempting a grab, do the first attack in the ftilt to stun the opponent so they are hit by the explosion. (Usually if this is done correctly, Snake is far enough for the explosion not to reach him but still close enough for the opponent to get hit).

 

[Sergetrigger]

1. You can shield grenades, snake players do it all the time to piss you off.
2. You can grab grenades.
3. Grenades can hurt snake too.
4. Snake is vulnerable when he pulls out grenades.
5. If you pressure snake enough, he'll think twice about trying to nade camp.
6. Lots of characters can outcamp snake. If you can't, then pick up someone who can.
7. Be patient, most of the time grenades sit there, and if he throws them, shield or sidestep them. Approach slowly and DON'T attack the grenades.

1. Snake players usually use this to their advantage for setups for grabs or other moves.
2. You CAN grab his grenades, but that's more deadly than anything else since he can simply grenade strip you.
3. Nothing to say to that since it's true.
4. Even so, Snake players usually pull out a grenade when they're at a safe distance away.
5. The main thing with Snake is his ability mess up the rhythm of the opponent. Even if you try to pressure Snake enough, his nades will still disturb the flow. Or he can change his tactics completely and go straight on with grenade in hand.
6. But can any character control the momentum of his projectiles from far away.
7. Refer to 6. He can control where his grenades land and set up for different plans of attacks with grenades.

 

[OverLade]

Lol well looks like snake players know their stuff. I gets my points as specifc as they are are pretty irrelevant. But my point still remains "Don't be afraid to pick up or get near the grenades (though you might want to avoid getting too close to snake).

 

[bman in 2288]

Yeah, but that's why good Snakes cook their grenades. To prevent retaliation.

 

[OverLade]

Yeah, but that's why good Snakes cook their grenades. To prevent retaliation.

Can you specify the definition of cooking grenades, I dont play snake.

If cooking grenades is waiting for before they blow up, then that's when snake is vulnerable, because while snake is sitting there "cooking", you can do something about it (grabbing comes to mind).

 

[Sergetrigger]

Can you specify the definition of cooking grenades, I dont play snake.

If cooking grenades is waiting for before they blow up, then that's when snake is vulnerable, because while snake is sitting there "cooking", you can do something about it (grabbing comes to mind).

No snake player is dumb enough to stand still while he is cooking a grenade... The only thing you have to concern yourself while cooking a grenade is the time. Most advanced Snakes don't even need to count, they just rely on instinct and know when the perfect time is to throw a grenade.

Also, cooking a grenade gives more options and control where exactly do they want the grenade to explode and at what time. Basically an uncooked grenade and shield dropped, if tossed won't explode anywhere near the stage. A grenade that has been cooked 2 seconds will explode at the edge of the stage... if thrown from the other edge. A fully cooked one can pretty much explode near the diamond of FD.

As I said before, no snake player is dumb enough to stand still while cooking a grenade. There are other methods of cooking as well, do an under hand throw and catch the grenade in mid air, by the time you land you got yourself at least a grenade that has been cooked for 3 seconds.

 

[OverLade]

No snake player is dumb enough to stand still while he is cooking a grenade... The only thing you have to concern yourself while cooking a grenade is the time. Most advanced Snakes don't even need to count, they just rely on instinct and know when the perfect time is to throw a grenade.

Also, cooking a grenade gives more options and control where exactly do they want the grenade to explode and at what time. Basically an uncooked grenade and shield dropped, if tossed won't explode anywhere near the stage. A grenade that has been cooked 2 seconds will explode at the edge of the stage... if thrown from the other edge. A fully cooked one can pretty much explode near the diamond of FD.

As I said before, no snake player is dumb enough to stand still while cooking a grenade. There are other methods of cooking as well, do an under hand throw and catch the grenade in mid air, by the time you land you got yourself at least a grenade that has been cooked for 3 seconds.

Not standing still doesn't make you invulnerable.

If you attack snake while he's cooking a grenade without blowing the grenade up, even if he shields, he can't risk retaliating, because the grenade might blow up and damage him.

And you can easily grab snake when he lands, so the jumping cooking strategy is unsafe.

My point is, if you're going to give snake 3 seconds to cook a grenade, THAT'S the problem.

 

[Azgner]

Granades do not to be in snakes hands while he cook them. he can shield drop and pick them up to throw when he thinks they are cooked enough. giving him freedom to use any of his moves. and, in case you dont know, he can pick up a dropped granade with mortar slide. he can also d-tilt and f-smash with a grenade in hand. if you get too dash grab happy, you can get predictable and get f-smash at the last second. Dont forget that he can drop grenades in air and pick up them with an aerial. And, although snake's aerial game is not great, being hit by most of them sure hurts.

 

[lax guy5]

Who can outcamp Snake!?

 

[Hot_ArmS]

red has a good point especially about grabbing snake when he pulls out the nade. He plays meta and meta's grab is too fast and annoying and has a good range when mk is dashing

grrrr

yeah the snake should just make sure they have a higher controller port, better than having a lower one lol

 

[OverLade]

red has a good point especially about grabbing snake when he pulls out the nade. He plays meta and meta's grab is too fast and annoying and has a good range when mk is dashing

grrrr

yeah the snake should just make sure they have a higher controller port, better than having a lower one lol

Yeah, mabye I should've specified that Metaknights dashgrab is especially good against snake. That's the matchup I was thinking this whole time, I just didn't feel the need to say that XD.

 

[iRjOn]

hmm really tho dash grabs arent great either except with MK really cause his lack of lagg. Almost everyone else can punished for missed dash grabs.

And yea Snakes shield dropping a nade is like 2 frames or so long so its hard to time the grab at risk of a ftilt then getting hit by a nade.

Snake can be out campped other than by an extremely good ROB? o.O

Some good thoughts tho Halberd

 

[Stealth Raptor]

do grenades come out in one frame?

 

[iRjOn]

1 or 2 dunno the exact amount...

 

[bman in 2288]

They appear **** fast, that's all for sure. But remember, Fox's shine was cut down to maybe 2-3 frames, so maybe it's not a 1-framer.