Grab Release Mega-Thread (Spoilers: Almost Zero Combos)

[Game7a1]

On the topic of Jigglypuff, more grab release confirms have been found (thanks Feelicks).
While normally this would be a bad idea for Puff mains as to not make it spread even more, I think we need to give more research in grab releases on other characters. I think the early conclusion that there really aren't any may have been too hasty.
And if Puff is the only one affected, then it's Wario 1.0 all over again.
EDIT (1/10): Or I was too hasty.

Been searching for a bit, but is there a list anywhere of characters that cannot use their Up B again after being grab released from the ledge? (If there is would it be possible to add that to this thread, please?) If there isn't I'll be happy to test stuff.

You mean like in Brawl? I thought it was fixed (and some characters like Sonic and Pac Man had patch fixes for this problem).

 

[Lavani]

The only thing on that list that Jiggs can't just jump out of is Boost Kick, which is only escapable by buffering Rest (which won't hit ZSS, so lol)

 

[Game7a1]

Yeah, I've been thinking some, if not most, could be escaped by Rest, which could hit the opponent. Not the best idea since it's risky, but if Rest hits the opponent, good on Puff.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

On the topic of Jigglypuff, more grab release confirms have been found (thanks Feelicks).
While normally this would be a bad idea for Puff mains as to not make it spread even more, I think we need to give more research in grab releases on other characters. I think the early conclusion that there really aren't any may have been too hasty.
And if Puff is the only one affected, then it's Wario 1.0 all over again.

You mean like in Brawl? I thought it was fixed (and some characters like Sonic and Pac Man had patch fixes for this problem).

Lucario dies if grab released out of up B if he used his second jump even if you trade Extreme Speed with the grab. I know it wasn't patched out since I was still able to do it to someone yesterday, lol.

I also know that if you grab release Yoshi after his Up B he does not go as high with his next Up B. Not sure how many other characters have these issues. From a matchup standpoint this is pretty important imo.

 

[Game7a1]

Lucario dies if grab released out of up B if he used his second jump even if you trade Extreme Speed with the grab. I know it wasn't patched out since I was still able to do it to someone yesterday, lol.

I also know that if you grab release Yoshi after his Up B he does not go as high with his next Up B. Not sure how many other characters have these issues. From a matchup standpoint this is pretty important imo.

I got the same results with Lucario and Yoshi after some testing.
I also found out that Fox and Falco's Side B, if grabbed during or after being used, are unable to be performed after a grab release. Doesn't mean much since they can recover with their Up-B, but they would be at a disadvantageous position if they have no jump to use.
I tested a few other characters (including Greninja, Olimar, ZSS, Little Mac, ROB, and including those affected in Brawl and not mentioned in the Patch notes), and they're not affected by the glitch.

 

[Royug]

I'd like to point out that Luma won't take orders while Rosalina is committed to either the grab or the grab release animation. Now there is a window in which a free Luma could hit any character doing a jump break as long as Luma was correctly positioned and the move had sufficiently good frame data for Luma (I'm pretty sure utilt works decently often), but this requires substantial set-up to the point that it's going to be really easy to figure out with good 60 fps video from Wii U (so we can get Luma's frame data and the exact frame advantage of jump break, which I estimate to be 10f or less) but is not very practical to test as of now. It's also worth noting that in many situations Rosalina can use this sort of set-up to combo from a throw instead of from grab relese which is of course better since the throw does direct damage on top of what Luma's hit will do.

We are pretty certain, if Luma is united with Rosalina (or dead or in a useless position), that Rosalina gets nothing from grab release.

This sort of combo from a throw can work with F-throw or D-throw, but only at very low percent. At higher percent, the opponent flies too far and high for Luma to be able to hit him. In this situation, if Luma is away, it's better to U-throw then go for U-air strings and to throw the opponent away and hope to catch it with Luma as it flies. Except at kill percent (110+ depending on the opponent). Then, you can kill him by grab release then U-smash with Luma from a short distance, which is a better option than any throws at this point. It works on fat characters and could work on others too.

 

[vyQ]

yo all!
We covered some stuff from this thread and some more additional information on grab releases in our newest video.
But we also missed some stuff apparently? A lot of people say that there are true air release combos against some floaties.. and yea unfortunately we missed the shulk upb against jiggs too :/
sloppy work by us but you can still check out our vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3PF-LxS1U

 

[Funen1]

On the topic of grab release combos against floaties, there's one I've seen floated around before (no pun intended) that's actually not true: Ganondorf and Falcon's down-specials against an air-released Ness and Lucas. People have claimed these are true combos because of how Ness and Lucas' air releases work, but after trying it out myself I've found it's not real.

The misconception likely comes from people just looking at the combo counter in Training Mode - you can pummel once at the ledge, get the air release, then hit with down-B and the combo counter will say 2 instead of 1. However, as other labbers on Smashboards discovered a long time ago, this counter can be inaccurate - it doesn't always correctly take into account when characters can jump, air-dodge, etc. after hitstun. Besides this, the main reason this combo doesn't work is due to each character's frame data. Air releases universally take 10 frames longer than the release animations of the one doing the grabbing (39 vs. 29, respectively), but Ganondorf and Falcon's down-B moves take much longer than 10 frames to come out, specifically, 16 and 18. That's more than enough time for both Ness and Lucas to jump out if they still have their double jump, or if they don't, they can air-dodge through it or even attack anyone trying this combo on them.

So yeah, tl;dr this setup doesn't work, just wanted to clear that up.

vyQ No worries about missing something, your vids are still very helpful for explaining how these various topics work, plus they help kickstart discussion on those things that might've been missed before. Thanks for all your work!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

yo all!
We covered some stuff from this thread and some more additional information on grab releases in our newest video.
But we also missed some stuff apparently? A lot of people say that there are true air release combos against some floaties.. and yea unfortunately we missed the shulk upb against jiggs too :/
sloppy work by us but you can still check out our vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3PF-LxS1U

Nice cid, thanks for doing all of that work.

I am afraid I did not see a mention of grab releasing Yoshi or Lucario out of their Up Bs ove the ledge. If you grab release Yoshi out of his Up B he will not go as high in his next Up Bs and Lucario cannot use his Up B if grabbed out of it until the ledge is grabbed or he lands.

Both characters will likely die if they had already used their second jump and are grabbed out of Up B.

I am not sure if any other characters suffer this, which seems to be carried over from Brawl.

 

[vyQ]

Nice cid, thanks for doing all of that work.

I am afraid I did not see a mention of grab releasing Yoshi or Lucario out of their Up Bs ove the ledge. If you grab release Yoshi out of his Up B he will not go as high in his next Up Bs and Lucario cannot use his Up B if grabbed out of it until the ledge is grabbed or he lands.

Both characters will likely die if they had already used their second jump and are grabbed out of Up B.

I am not sure if any other characters suffer this, which seems to be carried over from Brawl.

What lucario doesnt get his up b back?? thats totally new to me :o

Gonna test that
yea the yoshi one we planned to include but we kinda forgot in the process.. you're right! It can be really usefull against yoshi!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

What lucario doesnt get his up b back?? thats totally new to me :o

Gonna test that
yea the yoshi one we planned to include but we kinda forgot in the process.. you're right! It can be really usefull against yoshi!

https://youtu.be/FnSbqPhCK68?t=1m

At one minute in you'll see it.

Also the Extreme Speed hitbox can trade with a grab and Lucario will still die if he used his second jump :/

Lucario is pretty underlabbed anyways. I can't seem to find enough helpers to test things.

 

[Equin0x]

Thinkaman one of my lab projects for the ZSS Discord involved the discovery that Air Release > Boost Kick leads is true in many scenarios with the help of the Smashville platform. Would you be interested in the results of that project?