Good Secondaries

[_trix_]

I'll actually make one right now. I'm gonna start it off on fox and then we can all discuss the matchup

 

[FE_Hector]

Anyways, I feel like this discussion has been pretty good. We should start up a marth matchup discussion thread. We're like the only character in top 8 that doesn't have one.

Smash G0D started making one. We could probably get it off the ground some more, but it's difficult to get all this info together.

 

[_trix_]

Smash G0D started making one. We could probably get it off the ground some more, but it's difficult to get all this info together.

Where is it? I can't find the thread

 

[FE_Hector]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smashg0ds-marth-matchup-guide.411200/

 

[Smashing Turnips]

Honestly, Fox is the best for handling Marth's "bad matchups" (Puff/Sheik/weird low tiers), but I don't recommend it. It's better to just main Marth and get better. I do, however, think that picking up a secondary character for teams is a good idea, if you like teams. Marth is fun, but unless you're good at stock tanking, playing support, and not hitting your teammate, it's really hard.

Using Fox for teams is never a bad idea, but Sheik is also a good teams character and is a decent secondary for singles as well. Whatever your style is, either Sheik or Fox can cover the holes. This of course, is just a short term fix to a fundamentals issue.

 

[FE_Hector]

Sorta related to Smashing Turnips' post, but a friend and I are gonna try doing Falco Marth in teams once we have the opportunity. Seems like it's got some possibility

 

[vexoskeleton]

Ive played some falco marth and imo it's not too good. You can also read around on the few people who have talked about it and most agree that its a pretty garbage team. Out of the top 8 or so marth only seems to work worse with maybe peach in doubles than falco. They just don't have much synergy and even something like falcon can work better imo.

 

[1MachGO]

@ 1 1MachGO just because it hits them high up doesn't mean it can't juggle, they don't have to be in hitstun the entire time to be comboed. For example, when marth juggles peach with upair it doesn't actually keep her in hitstun the entire time, it's just that being outside of hitstun doesn't matter much when you have literally nothing to come down with. Sheik marth is the same way. Sheiks upairs just out priorize all of Marths moves to come down with (except for counter and dair), making it super hard to come down. Also it doesn't matter that marth can di off stage to get away from sheiks upairs, because thats suicidal. Also, sheik can actually finisher he juggles with a fair or nair, while marth can't finish for **** cuz all his aerial are weak af. And stop acting like you know everything, you're not m2k.

Was never arguing that you had to maintain hitstun to juggle lol. All I have been saying is that Marth is better at juggling sheik than vice versa. You seem to have lost sight of that fact.

If recognizing that Marth's mobility and his disjointed upair/fair are superior tools for juggling than Sheik's equivalent, than forgive me for "acting like I know everything".

Perhaps I am callous in how I present this information, but it just seems like a silly debate when almost every pro Sheik I see opts for creating edge guard situations with fairs rather than racking up damage with uairs.

 

[FE_Hector]

Ive played some falco marth and imo it's not too good. You can also read around on the few people who have talked about it and most agree that its a pretty garbage team. Out of the top 8 or so marth only seems to work worse with maybe peach in doubles than falco. They just don't have much synergy and even something like falcon can work better imo.

Well, like I said, we're going to test it out. Not gonna be like legitimately serious with it unless we see some nice potential with the team.

 

[Ladder]

It's not the lack of chaingrab so much as the drastically worse down throw in general that makes Sheik worse in PAL (and to a lesser extent the reduced kill power of up air and up smash). When can Sheik even chaingrab Marth in NTSC anyway? <30%, and only on DI away?

What would a Marth main use Doc for? Doc sucks, and he especially sucks against the characters Marth doesn't do so great against.

Doc for the jiggs matchup.

 

[1MachGO]

Doc for the jiggs matchup.

Marth beats Jiggs though

 

[FE_Hector]

A lot of Marth's struggle with the MU though. PPU beating HBox at Apex this year was so big not because it's PPU, but because it's a Marth.

 

[A_Reverie]

A lot of Marth's struggle with the MU though. PPU beating HBox at Apex this year was so big not because it's PPU, but because it's a Marth.

I think PPU is doing a lot of work to push the match up in favor of Marth, though. The fact that he can kill Puff so easily out of grab is an incredible tool. The only other character that can do that to Puff is Fox I think.

 

[Ladder]

I think PPU is doing a lot of work to push the match up in favor of Marth, though. The fact that he can kill Puff so easily out of grab is an incredible tool. The only other character that can do that to Puff is Fox I think.

Doc can kill with down throw fair too at least that's what people have been telling me

 

[A_Reverie]

Doc can kill with down throw fair too at least that's what people have been telling me

I always feel bad for forgetting about characters outside of the top 8. Thanks for ruining my day

 

[1MachGO]

A lot of Marth's struggle with the MU though. PPU beating HBox at Apex this year was so big not because it's PPU, but because it's a Marth.

lol you don't need to tell me. I have probably been following the scene much longer than you have (no offense).

In fact, I've tackled this topic in depth on the puff forums. There was plenty of info to suggest Marth > Puff before PPU beat Hbox. And this post was before Apex 2015:

Spoiler

@ the people saying Puff beats Marth

The short answer is just no lol. Puff>Marth is a myth that has been perpetuated by the community; namely through commentators and Marth players generally being bad in the MU.

To elaborate a bit, Puff probably has one of the smallest "gameplan deviations" in the entire cast. What I mean by this is that the strategies you need to apply with Puff don't vary drastically from MU to MU. On the other hand, Marth has an extremely high "gameplan deviation" (especially for a character in his tier). A lot of lower and mid level Marths fail because they don't realize how many elements change from MU to MU; Fox/Falco are probably the only MUs they've actually put any practice into (at least in regards to perfecting punishes) and they'll typically get gimmicked to death when they encounter a weird MU.

In other words, Puff has a huge advantage against characters who don't know the MU because her generic **** works most of the time. Marth's generic **** (run around, space, and go for grabs) will get him killed (especially in this MU).

Here is an example of a Marth getting bopped by Hbox because he does typical Marth things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UyPkPI5DHk

Here is an example of a Marth keeping it close with Hbox (observe the differences in Marth play): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRD4xvaREds

Hungrybox doesn't drop a game in either set (both Bo5s) but its important to note that he is a better player than the Moon and [a 2013] PPU.

Here is an example of a Puff getting bopped by PPMD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg0v2eyacoo

Its almost a role reversal of the Moon vs. Hbox (Though still not as dominant). And before you argue that its just PPMD > Soft, keep in mind that there is a comparable skill gap between the moon/2013 PPU and Hbox (in fact, Soft had probably accomplished more than both of those players at the time of CW6 due to his high Apex 2014 placing). Of course, Soft could just be bad at the MU, but for someone who placed top 8 at a 600 man tournament... its probably more likely that he just lost hard because he was facing a Marth that actually understood the MU.

And this is precisely what I am trying to illustrate here. Marth players don't know the MU; thus giving it the appearance that its good for puff. Yet when you actually look at examples of high level play, it is pretty evident that there are some pretty underutilized strategies in the MU; both defensive (PPU) and aggressive/reactive (PPMD). Factor in some of the Puff killer tech from Kadano's thread, and I think it can be definitively said that the MU is even at least. (Though I personally believe there is enough evidence to suggest its in Marth's favor)

Doc can kill with down throw fair too at least that's what people have been telling me

Yeah, but the problem is getting the grab and/or damage so dthrow>fair kills.

 

[A_Reverie]

I think there are a lot of unexplored elements of Marth's match-ups, and Puff is a great example.

 

[FE_Hector]

lol you don't need to tell me. I have probably been following the scene much longer than you have (no offense).

In fact, I've tackled this topic in depth on the puff forums. There was plenty of info to suggest Marth > Puff before PPU beat Hbox. And this post was before Apex 2015:




Yeah, but the problem is getting the grab and/or damage so dthrow>fair kills.

None taken. I don't necessarily think that Puff beats Marth... I never really have. It's like you said, though, there's a very large difference in how you have to play Marth in that particular MU in order to win, and a lot of people don't understand it. (probably myself included)

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, I think the main problem most Marths face in the MU (or any match up in general) is coming to grips with the fact that no one is forcing you to do anything. "Baiting" is the main strategy against Marth... but for that to be effective it solely relies on the Marth to take the bait.

 

[BauxFalcon]

Falcon
He may not have an even sheik matchup, but Falcon can do reasonably well against every character, and isn't as stupid as fox or falco

If you're just looking at the optimal secondary, then obviously fox.

 

[A_Reverie]

Falcon
He may not have an even sheik matchup, but Falcon can do reasonably well against every character, and isn't as stupid as fox or falco

If you're just looking at the optimal secondary, then obviously fox.

My most optimal secondary is the most edgy choice of all: No one! Marth should be able to reasonably handle every character in the game.

I used to play Falcon as well though. He's a lot of fun.

 

[NSunderdog]

I have a doc that I use but he has a hard time agents sheik as well

 

[Kansai]

I run Falco as my secondary, really only because I used to use him a lot before I got serious about the game.

The cool thing about Falco is that he runs train on Falcon, who is my personal worst matchup. Also deals with Sheik a bit better. Plus at my level (read- scrub) Peaches can't deal with lasers, so that's kind of nice too.

 

[FE_Hector]

I run Falco as my secondary, really only because I used to use him a lot before I got serious about the game.

The cool thing about Falco is that he runs train on Falcon, who is my personal worst matchup. Also deals with Sheik a bit better. Plus at my level (read- scrub) Peaches can't deal with lasers, so that's kind of nice too.

My only warning here is don't cheese wins. Learn how to win the MUs that are difficult for you. Maybe there's a Falcon playstyle that messes up your Falco, but your Marth handles it just fine. If the victory means that much to you and you don't think you can adapt, but your Marth and Falco are at the same level, then you should switch. Anything short of that kind of shortchanges your learning.

I run a secondary Falco, but he's mostly a lab project I break out occasionally in friendlies. For the most part, you should aim to improve your main until you're really good. If you don't get an intimate knowledge of your main because you split it between two different characters, you probably won't be able to adapt as well simply due to a lack of the insane understanding you get out of a character you've been using on other people for years.

 

[outofphase]

If you look at Marth's problem/even matchups (Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth/Puff/Falcon/Yoshi), It really makes the most sense to just keep a Fox. He beats Puff, Yoshi, and Falcon soundly while going at least even vs. the others. It all kinda comes down to preference and which matchups you personally struggle with. I keep my Falco for ICs, Samus, Yoshi, and sometimes spacies. I honestly hate playing vs. Falco with Marth and consider it a losing matchup for Marth. Falco vs. Fox is just a matchup I am good at so I often opt for Falco against more passive Fox players because I don't have good approach mixups relative to how good my zoning is.

 

[vexoskeleton]

If you look at Marth's problem/even matchups (Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth/Puff/Falcon/Yoshi), It really makes the most sense to just keep a Fox. He beats Puff, Yoshi, and Falcon soundly while going at least even vs. the others. It all kinda comes down to preference and which matchups you personally struggle with. I keep my Falco for ICs, Samus, Yoshi, and sometimes spacies. I honestly hate playing vs. Falco with Marth and consider it a losing matchup for Marth. Falco vs. Fox is just a matchup I am good at so I often opt for Falco against more passive Fox players because I don't have good approach mixups relative to how good my zoning is.

If you actually work at it you can get be proficient in all of those match ups. the only losing one is maybe falcon and sheik which is debatable while puff and yoshi aren't generally problems anymore, not only that but they are highly irrelevant characters in todays meta.

 

[Kansai]

My only warning here is don't cheese wins. Learn how to win the MUs that are difficult for you. Maybe there's a Falcon playstyle that messes up your Falco, but your Marth handles it just fine. If the victory means that much to you and you don't think you can adapt, but your Marth and Falco are at the same level, then you should switch. Anything short of that kind of shortchanges your learning.

I run a secondary Falco, but he's mostly a lab project I break out occasionally in friendlies. For the most part, you should aim to improve your main until you're really good. If you don't get an intimate knowledge of your main because you split it between two different characters, you probably won't be able to adapt as well simply due to a lack of the insane understanding you get out of a character you've been using on other people for years.

Well I try my best as Marth, but the thread was talking about secondaries. In tournament I'd probably only switch to Falco if I'm against Falcon or Sheik and they already beat my Marth.

 

[Kansai]

If you actually work at it you can get be proficient in all of those match ups. the only losing one is maybe falcon and sheik which is debatable while puff and yoshi aren't generally problems anymore, not only that but they are highly irrelevant characters in todays meta.

I wouldn't call Jiggs irrelevant. Yoshi perhaps, but that's at the higher levels. At low-mid play anything goes really.

 

[vexoskeleton]

I wouldn't call Jiggs irrelevant. Yoshi perhaps, but that's at the higher levels. At low-mid play anything goes really.

with tekk and s0ft puff has maybe 3 players in the top 100 who play her while in power rankings for most areas I doubt she would even appear and yoshi has one main in top 100 who is top 25 at best. At the top level jiggs isn't irrelevant but that's only because the person who plays her is a top 6 player who constantly gets top 4 at most events he's attended recently.