Good Secondaries

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Pretty much what it says on the tin. Which characters are most beneficial to pick up as secondaries to counteract Marth's less advantageous match-ups?

 

[AudioSilver]

I normally use Ganondorf to counter Ice Climbers, and Sheik or Fox to counter anyone else that my Marth isn't effective against.

(Probably just me.)

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Sheik, Fox or Falco is what I recommend.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

From the consensus I'm getting Sheik or Falco. My Falco isn't bad already and I can do some of the tricks like Short-hop laser into smash/tilt/whatever I just really need to work on Wavedashing out of shine so I can continue my pillars (if I can't get the utilt). I've been wanting to pick up Sheik for a while, so I guess this is a good chance to work on that.

Thanks for the help!

 

[PlamZ]

I personally say go for a spacie. People underestimate how much you learn about the game when learning the different spacie technique.

Fox or Falco are both great choice, but I do think that the matchup coverage is better using Fox.

 

[FE_Hector]

Once I get my Marth down, I'm either going to second a spacie or Sheik. I'd say that they're probably the best options to second. Or you could just go all Marth, no secondaries! (Before you guys rip apart the idea, I'm only going "Go Marth or go home" right now because I haven't mastered my Marth. I don't think that lacking a secondary is too good of an idea.)

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

@ PlamZ

I ended up picking up Falco a while ago to learn some of the more advanced spacie tech like shine -> wavedash -> pillar etc. I can use him decently like I assume most players can but I've never really considered maining him outside of using him to learn tech skills.

 

[FE_Hector]

I started training up a Falco recently (like yesterday) for my secondary. I've messed around a good bit with Sheik, and I've tested the waters with Fox, also, and I personally think that Falco fits in with a lot of Marth's fundamentals pretty well. On top of that, I just think Falco Lombardi is fun to say. Obviously a matter of preference, but I'd also recommend Falco for the people who aren't Fox mains because his SH is easier to do than Fox's is. Don't hold me to the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that, if we're talking in terms of max # of frames for the jump button to be pressed, Marth has 4, Falco has 3 (maybe 4), and Fox has 2. On a side note, I think bouncing dummy controller's up and down with Shine -> dair is fun with him, but that's another discussion.

 

[Stride]

Obviously a matter of preference, but I'd also recommend Falco for the people who aren't Fox mains because his SH is easier to do than Fox's is. Don't hold me to the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that, if we're talking in terms of max # of frames for the jump button to be pressed, Marth has 4, Falco has 3 (maybe 4), and Fox has 2. On a side note, I think bouncing dummy controller's up and down with Shine -> dair is fun with him, but that's another discussion.

Fox 2 frames
Marth 3 frames
Falco 4 frames

You can look this kind of thing up: http://old.clashtournaments.com/ct-mew2kings-info-dump-super-smash-bros-melee/#40

 

[FE_Hector]

My bad. Still, even the 1 frame less for Marth -> Fox is actually pretty difficult to shave off. I can consistently SHFFL with Marth, but when I tried with Fox, I kept messing up even the SH part. Maybe it's just my problem, but I think I worded it in an opinionated manner, so no harm done either way. Thanks for correcting me, though, Stride.

 

[rivers]

My secondary is puff.

I wish I could say I had a better reason than "because I like getting rest kills".

 

[TheCandyman]

I would say Fox or Falco would be the best secondaries. Depending on who you're good against as a marth player. If you are proffecient with the chain grab on spacies and can consistently combo them but not really on par against Floaties and Sheik. PICK FOX!

If you are better at your dash dance game (not to say it's not important against spacies, it's 100% essential in any Marth player's books especially with spacies but since marth kind of struggles against floaties dashdancing is more relied on anyway) and you're better against MU like Puff, Peach, and Sheik then choose Falco because he has phenomnal combo and control game against fast fallers.

If you enjoy dictating the pace of the match and having constant control with your DD Falco is your man because lasers exist

Generally Marth fundamentals work well with Falco because they have a similar goal in trying to win the neutral and dictate the pace as best as they can because both practically autowin the neutral through DD or Lasers.

BUT there are quite a few holes in Marth - Falco. Sheik and Marth are huge problems because Falco easily loses to Marth and Sheik is a very tough MU for Marth. So that leaves you with the janky as hell Marth Ditto and Sheik - Falco MUs. Sheik Falco is very even so it's not statistically better so yeah

Fox - Marth on the other hand is almost an interpenetratable wall. Fox covers every bad MU with Marth and ditto to Fox's MUs (besides Marth). Fox wrecks floaties and ICS and beats Sheik, characters Marth generally stuggles with and Marth beats Falco and goes dead even in Fox-Marth and in favor on FD.

TL;DR
Falco because fundamentals are similar
Fox because their MUs help eachother greatly

 

[DeadPigeon]

My secondary is puff.

I wish I could say I had a better reason than "because I like getting rest kills".

The sheik matchup?

 

[FE_Hector]

My secondary is puff.

I wish I could say I had a better reason than "because I like getting rest kills".

And that bair.... dang that bair

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.

 

[PlamZ]

Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.

IC??

Last time I checked, a lot of Ice Climbers struggled against Marth.

 

[TheCandyman]

Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.

Yoshi and Pikachu are kinda bad too. But ICs not really.

But Fox still counters every bad MU Marth has: Sheik, Puff (depends on the player), Yoshi. And Pika.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

Fox is probably your best bet. He does well against Sheik, arguably Marth's worst matchup.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I would say Marth's troublesome match-ups are Falco and ICs.

Falco I say is problomatic simply due to having one of the best ways to deny Marth's good ground traits. The best trait Marth has going into the match-up with Falco is punishes. However, without an effective way to create situations where he can start his punishes I think the match-up is more in Falco's favor.

However, my idea with ICs is not really from much experience. The troublesome thing is that Marth's hits are often fairly weak. So, hitting one IC can often result in being hit by the other and generating a situation where ICs win against Marth by trading.

Sheik I am not sure about.

Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.

How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

Sheik I am not sure about.

Sheik has numerous followups from dthrow at a wide variety of percents that are pretty much impossible to get out of. Marth's movement lends itself to a better neutral game centered on dash dancing and spaced dtilts, but if Sheik gets a grab, she has heavy guaranteed punishes.

How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.

I think this match up is even, but I know I struggled a ton with Falcon back in my early Marth days, because I didn't know how to DI anything, and Falcon's nair pops floaties up in a way that sets him up for more nairs and then up airs to knee.

 

[FE_Hector]

Sheik has numerous followups from dthrow at a wide variety of percents that are pretty much impossible to get out of. Marth's movement lends itself to a better neutral game centered on dash dancing and spaced dtilts, but if Sheik gets a grab, she has heavy guaranteed punishes.

The most important part of this being "if Sheik gets a grab". In my opinion, it's a rather difficult MU for Marth, but if you learn it, it's plenty winnable. Marth's sword lends him an excellent defensive tool in the air provided he's not in hitstun that can outspace all of Sheik's aerials. I've been able to successfully dair a rising uair from Sheik to return the game to neutral, and while I'll admit it's hard, you can bair or fair Sheik to stop her fairs.

Past that, Marth's grab range is way longer than Sheik's is, and his DD puts hers to shame. I've found that not taking the mindset of "the Sheik-Marth MU is a pain for Marth" as "it's nearly impossible for Marth to beat Sheik" helps a lot. Keep an open mind, wobble her, and don't let her get into your head. On a side note, she's not that tough to edgeguard at all.

 

[DeadPigeon]

The most important part of this being "if Sheik gets a grab". In my opinion, it's a rather difficult MU for Marth, but if you learn it, it's plenty winnable. Marth's sword lends him an excellent defensive tool in the air provided he's not in hitstun that can outspace all of Sheik's aerials. I've been able to successfully dair a rising uair from Sheik to return the game to neutral, and while I'll admit it's hard, you can bair or fair Sheik to stop her fairs.

Past that, Marth's grab range is way longer than Sheik's is, and his DD puts hers to shame. I've found that not taking the mindset of "the Sheik-Marth MU is a pain for Marth" as "it's nearly impossible for Marth to beat Sheik" helps a lot. Keep an open mind, wobble her, and don't let her get into your head. On a side note, she's not that tough to edgeguard at all.

I agree, it's definitely winnable. It's a lot easier to hit sheik out of an uair or fair than a nair or bair. Marth's grab range is only kinda longer than sheik's. Her standing grab is obviously shorter, but you have to respect the distance and speed of boost grab in neutral. Plus, she can play a 50/50 game with dash attack/boost grab, either of which is extremely juicy and will lead to a combo on marth (given that you are beyond cc range). But yes, Marth also has plenty of tool to deal with her, so it's not a horrible matchup.

 

[FE_Hector]

I agree, it's definitely winnable. It's a lot easier to hit sheik out of an uair or fair than a nair or bair. Marth's grab range is only kinda longer than sheik's. Her standing grab is obviously shorter, but you have to respect the distance and speed of boost grab in neutral. Plus, she can play a 50/50 game with dash attack/boost grab, either of which is extremely juicy and will lead to a combo on marth (given that you are beyond cc range). But yes, Marth also has plenty of tool to deal with her, so it's not a horrible matchup.

As far as the boost grab goes, I'm typically either able to dash dance out of the way or I'll simply spot dodge it. It's kinda funny to see what she'll do afterwards because so many people fully expect their grabs to land.

 

[TheCandyman]

I would say Marth's troublesome match-ups are Falco and ICs.

Falco I say is problomatic simply due to having one of the best ways to deny Marth's good ground traits. The best trait Marth has going into the match-up with Falco is punishes. However, without an effective way to create situations where he can start his punishes I think the match-up is more in Falco's favor.

Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)
Marth outranges everything Falco has, is much faster, has far better DD game, and can deal with lasers due to crouching out of run and d-tilt, has amazing punish game against Falco (if you're grabbed against Marth as Falco you should be dead or at least 70%), and has cactuar dashing to deal with lasers. Marth has all of the tools to beat Falco and then some.

EDIT: Not to mention Edgeguards which marth can easily do to falco

Now this is not to say it's unwinnable, which it isn't by any means. Most likely 60-40 marth maybe 55-45. Falco has his auto-approach with lasers and one shine on marth can easily give you 40% if you're good at following DI.

 

[FE_Hector]

Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)
Marth outranges everything Falco has, is much faster, has far better DD game, and can deal with lasers due to crouching out of run and d-tilt, has amazing punish game against Falco (if you're grabbed against Marth as Falco you should be dead or at least 70%), and has cactuar dashing to deal with lasers. Marth has all of the tools to beat Falco and then some.

Now this is not to say it's unwinnable, which it isn't by any means. Most likely 60-40 marth maybe 55-45. Falco has his auto-approach with lasers and one shine on marth can easily give you 40% if you're good at following DI.

A 60-40 or 55-45, regardless of who its against, is barely a disadvantage. Either way, the Top 4 are, in my opinion, fairly well matched.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)
Marth outranges everything Falco has, is much faster, has far better DD game, and can deal with lasers due to crouching out of run and d-tilt, has amazing punish game against Falco (if you're grabbed against Marth as Falco you should be dead or at least 70%), and has cactuar dashing to deal with lasers. Marth has all of the tools to beat Falco and then some.

EDIT: Not to mention Edgeguards which marth can easily do to falco

Now this is not to say it's unwinnable, which it isn't by any means. Most likely 60-40 marth maybe 55-45. Falco has his auto-approach with lasers and one shine on marth can easily give you 40% if you're good at following DI.

I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.

Which from several marth players of say PewpewU or M2K (for the longest time) they play at the pace of the opposing falco finding themselves in shield a ton or unable to use any movement due to lasers. In this regard, I feel Falco has the advantage. Saying a person has a really strong punish against a character is not really valid because pretty much any character has a solid punish on Fox/Falco. The strength of a character comes from how well they can ever force that punish to occur.

 

[FE_Hector]

I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.

Which from several marth players of say PewpewU or M2K (for the longest time) they play at the pace of the opposing falco finding themselves in shield a ton or unable to use any movement due to lasers. In this regard, I feel Falco has the advantage. Saying a person has a really strong punish against a character is not really valid because pretty much any character has a solid punish on Fox/Falco. The strength of a character comes from how well they can ever force that punish to occur.

That's a lot of my take on the Marth-Sheik MU. At least the way that my bro and I play, it tends to be whoever is able to get a tiny bit of stage control is going to take that stock. For example, I was able yesterday to 0-death him via grab -> back throw (he missed tech) -> reverse f-smash -> wavedash off -> roll up (he lands on edge with Vanish) -> f-smash -> wavedash off for the stock. Later on in the battle, though, he was able to f-tilt -> u-air -> u-air -> fair -> needle gimp and I was done. So much of these top 4 MUs is whoever can get a tiny bit of momentum first. What can make the MU tough is when you struggle to actually get that momentum.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.

Which from several marth players of say PewpewU or M2K (for the longest time) they play at the pace of the opposing falco finding themselves in shield a ton or unable to use any movement due to lasers. In this regard, I feel Falco has the advantage. Saying a person has a really strong punish against a character is not really valid because pretty much any character has a solid punish on Fox/Falco. The strength of a character comes from how well they can ever force that punish to occur.

Stage choice really plays a big part in why the match-up is so bad for Falco imo. Obviously FD is bad because Falco can get M2K'd off a single grab if two competent people are playing but on other stages like YS and to a lesser extent BF Marth's range advantage with the sword is so extremely that he can basically zone a third of the stage at any given moment. Utilt / SHFFL uair from below covers Falco's escape to platforms and ftilt covers below the platforms. If the two are in neutral as long as Marth doesn't make poor decisions when he advances on the Falco its really a matter of time before Falco gets boxed in somewhere. The key difference here between the Fox match-up is that Fox's speed always him to play Marth's DD game right back so that he doesn't get zoned as hard. In addition Fox's full jump will take him like, halfway across BF out of a dash so escaping zoning is a little easier.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I would say Marth's troublesome match-ups are Falco and ICs.

Falco I say is problomatic simply due to having one of the best ways to deny Marth's good ground traits. The best trait Marth has going into the match-up with Falco is punishes. However, without an effective way to create situations where he can start his punishes I think the match-up is more in Falco's favor.

However, my idea with ICs is not really from much experience. The troublesome thing is that Marth's hits are often fairly weak. So, hitting one IC can often result in being hit by the other and generating a situation where ICs win against Marth by trading.

Sheik I am not sure about.

How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.

Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.

Specifically against Falcon as Marth, it's difficult to out-punish him because his grabs lead to more damage, and avoiding Falcon's grabs requires you to dash dance into areas that Falcon can easily cover with shffl'd aerials. When you grab Falcon, you have to react and execute extremely well to get a punish that is on par with Falcon's easy combos on you.

Just look at the damage differential and momentum imbalance in this match from the number of grabs that both players got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2fHNuM-Xo#t=2m13s

IC??

Last time I checked, a lot of Ice Climbers struggled against Marth.

It's a fairly even matchup. I wouldn't say it's a struggle for ICs at all. In fact, unless you know the matchup very well, it's difficult for Marth. Fly did lose two sets to PewPewU in 2013, but Wobbles also 3-0'd PewPewU that same year.

Nintendude and Chudat have forced Mew2King to switch from Marth to Peach or Fox numerous times.

Wobbles has never lost to a Marth player that I know of.

Nintendude been losing to the Moon, but Moon is a phenomenal player against floaties. In some regards, Moon is probably better against floaties as Marth than M2K.

 

[FE_Hector]

Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.

Specifically against Falcon as Marth, it's difficult to out-punish him because his grabs lead to more damage, and avoiding Falcon's grabs requires you to dash dance into areas that Falcon can easily cover with shffl'd aerials. When you grab Falcon, you have to react and execute extremely well to get a punish that is on par with Falcon's easy combos on you.

Just look at the damage differential and momentum imbalance in this match from the number of grabs that both players got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2fHNuM-Xo#t=2m13s

Yeah, that is, in my opinion, a ton of Falcon's S-Tier ranking. Those throws follow up so easily and deal ridiculous damage (was that like 13% off of an fthrow?), and his tech chasing game is ridiculous. And then there's that knee... that brutal, brutal knee. Lucky me I'm getting a Falco ready. I've heard he fares much better against CF.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.

Specifically against Falcon as Marth, it's difficult to out-punish him because his grabs lead to more damage, and avoiding Falcon's grabs requires you to dash dance into areas that Falcon can easily cover with shffl'd aerials. When you grab Falcon, you have to react and execute extremely well to get a punish that is on par with Falcon's easy combos on you.

Most of what you bring up I feel is relevant when there is significant human error on the Marth's end. Yes, Marth has an annoying issue where his ability to tack on damage is slow and requires more hits. Compared to say Falcon where you need fewer. Again, this is an issue predominately for those who drop combos often.

Ideally, Marth would get a grab and say tech chase Falcon until 30% and go for Uthrow shenanigans from that point onward. With the benefit that Falcon cannot really do a whole lot in the juggle or edgeguard against him. He has no stalling or additional recovery methods beyond aerial, air dodge, or 2nd jump. All options Marth can cover and the only way for Falcon to really get out of this is if Marth screws up his timing or misses. Fox is trickier to edgeguard than Falcon by quite a bit.

In this aspect, its harder for the human player on the Marth's end, but it still stands to reason that they both punish each other heavily. At the lower end of the skill pool the factors of human error matter more and generally why people always see Sheik as being a bad match-up. Sheik is simply an easier character to play and punish Marth, and Marth is very difficult to play and punish Sheik back. But, they both have the ability to do heavily punish each other.

Fox's can opt to react to DI differently. Uthrow -> Uair can be escaped by trying to say SDI the 1st hit of Uair or by doing say DI far away such that the 1st hit hits and not the second. However, Fox can use other punishes. Its more common for me to see Fox use Uair on no DI or partial DI and use Bair on DI away. Either way, you are getting combo'd and are still in a bad spot.

Falcon has more range, but less effectiveness on his aerials compared to Fox. Fox can mitigate CC and shield by having access to shine. Falcon has none of that and makes hitting these options harder to punish for himself. If Falcon lands in front of me during a shield a shieldgrab is always a possibility while against Fox it is not. They both outrun Marth anyway. The rest of the fox I would agree with you mentioned.

Again, the ease of punishes I do not believe is an important factor in the match-up. The important thing is the possibility of heavy punishes which Marth can do on a regular basis. Its simply difficult to play a perfect stock without messing up at some point and get wrecked by a character with easier punishes. So, I see that as I need to be a better player with my character and not limit Marth's inherent punish ability that is right in front of him.

If the two are in neutral as long as Marth doesn't make poor decisions when he advances on the Falco its really a matter of time before Falco gets boxed in somewhere. The key difference here between the Fox match-up is that Fox's speed always him to play Marth's DD game right back so that he doesn't get zoned as hard. In addition Fox's full jump will take him like, halfway across BF out of a dash so escaping zoning is a little easier.

Marth's movement is effective I would say only in the situation where Falco is already unable to dash back and use a laser. If Falco goes for a laser you can be close enough to punish the laser. If he SH aerials in place or dashes at you you can either sword or dash away and punish ending lag. In any other situation, Marth cannot effectively force Falco towards the ledge and take the space that was left behind.

Unless a person is able to reliably powershield with very good precision and execution a Falco laser is a very bad thing to happen to you as you get put in shield or put in lag with all momentum stopped. Therefore, the moment Falco is able to start lasering and get them off your movement loses all power it had and Falco gains the pace of the match.

This leads me to the previous paragraph I started with. I do not believe Marth safely cover all options Falco has access too with a bit of stage to work with. Dash forward from Falco or in place stuff can be covered by Marth. Generally, if a character retreats and gives up stage Marth does not care as he goes to fill in the void that was left behind and this might happen until a person runs out of stage. However, retreating laser does not give up any space from Falco as the laser takes that space back that he gave up. If you attempt to take that space back you have to deal with the laser and whatever Falco can do next while you are in stun or shield. If you do nothing and hang back you are no longer close enough to prevent Falco from lasering and he is winning neutral with the ability to laser freely.

Yes, Marth can punish Falco heavily, but so can Falco punish Marth heavily. With a big difference being that Falco can force Marth into situations which are disadvantaged for him while Marth cannot really do the same back against Falco. So, this is why I see the match-up being a generally losing aspect for Marth. Stages I cannot see effecting this too much other than the ease at which either character can punish the other or not.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth's punish game on Falcon is great. But the problem is that there are some instances where pure reaction tech chases are not possible with certain DI on your d-throw or f-throw. Furthermore, Falcon can opt to not tech, and even if you hit him for it, he can usually take the solo hit and restore back to neutral without too much difficulty.

Basically, my thesis statement is that the Marth has to be playing really well to beat a Falcon of equal skill. Look at PewPewU vs Gravy from CEO and PPMD vs S2J from Apex. Even $Mike has taken games off PPMD's Marth at locals, and obviously Kevin Nanney is tiers above $Mike in skill.

 

[FE_Hector]

Marth's punish game on Falcon is great. But the problem is that there are some instances where pure reaction tech chases are not possible with certain DI on your d-throw or f-throw. Furthermore, Falcon can opt to not tech, and even if you hit him for it, he can usually take the solo hit and restore back to neutral without too much difficulty.

Basically, my thesis statement is that the Marth has to be playing really well to beat a Falcon of equal skill. Look at PewPewU vs Gravy from CEO and PPMD vs S2J from Apex. Even $Mike has taken games off PPMD's Marth at locals, and obviously Kevin Nanney is tiers above $Mike in skill.

Personally, I'm normally going to opt for a back throw instead of a down throw. I think it gives you way more options while still granting you the extra stage that can be gained through a down throw. Also, the way they go above and behind you gives you options you don't get from down throw, such as utilt if they try to DI in

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm going to start experimenting with back-throw too. The thought actually has crossed my mind while posting in this thread and in the past.

 

[Stride]

Since I happen to have this frame data lying around, I might as well post it here:

The latest possible DI input on a throw is 2 frames before the release point.

Marth down throw
PAL Fox 0%

Release point: 11
Opponent lands: 26 (no DI), 24 (straight behind DI), 27 (straight in front DI)
Marth can act: 32​

Falcon 0%

Release point: 15
Opponent lands: 35 (no DI), 33 (straight behind DI), 36 (straight in front DI)
Marth can act: 45​

Marth back throw
PAL Fox 0%

Release point: 6
Opponent lands: 25 (no DI), 22 (straight behind DI), 27 (straight in front DI)
Marth can act: 33​

Falcon 0%

Release point: 8
Opponent lands: 34 (no DI), 32 (straight behind DI), 35 (straight in front DI)
Marth can act: 47​

Down throw at 0% on Falcon gives Marth 3 more frames of advantage than back throw, though the distance the opponent lands from you must be taken in to account when determining which is better for tech chasing. The fact that the window for DI on back throw is so small is significant too (it's 13-14 frames including the grab and with an immediate throw, which is on the borderline of the average raw reaction time; that's assuming the grab is identified immediately and the type of throw is correctly read/guessed).

Down throw feels like it's generally better for setting up tech chases, but I can't be sure in which particular situaitons (if any) that's the case. I'll investigate it further too.

 

[FE_Hector]

That's some pretty nice data there, Stride. In more general terms of usage, my back vs down throws are more situational than anything.

Down throw: I'll use this if I'm super close to the ledge (at my back) and my opponent is at a low percent. In general, I've been able to pull off a few more hits before they can do anything, sometimes downright killing them. This kill, I think it important to mention, is when I can force Fox or Falco away from the edge and they use Illusion/Phantasm and I get an edgeguard, or if anybody has the tenacity to jump back in and I get a dair spike.

Back throw: Generally comes out at low and mid percentages, at times when uthrow chaingrabs and uthrow utilts are exceedingly difficult. The upwards motion, as mentioned earlier, allows for some unique follow-ups, but I will admit it's tough to tech chase if they roll away. Personally, I favor this whenever uthrow doesn't seem like it will work well, particularly against jumpy opponents

 

[Spoice]

From the consensus I'm getting Sheik or Falco. My Falco isn't bad already and I can do some of the tricks like Short-hop laser into smash/tilt/whatever I just really need to work on Wavedashing out of shine so I can continue my pillars (if I can't get the utilt). I've been wanting to pick up Sheik for a while, so I guess this is a good chance to work on that.

Thanks for the help!

Yeah I'd say go for Falco, I tried out Sheik and Fox, and both don't seem to be as effective as Falco.

 

[balloonpower]

I don't really think you need a secondary as marth, you don't have any awful matchups as marth

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't really think you need a secondary as marth, you don't have any awful matchups as marth

Link can actually provide Marth a bit of a challenge, and Marth has to try a lot in order to beat Falcon because of Falcons tech-chasing game and heavy punishes. Also, sometimes one of the spacies could play a bit faster or in a slightly different manner than you've seen before as a Marth, and you get kinda stuck, sort of like what happened to PPMD vs. Armada at Apex. That was a great time to have a secondary. Also, Marth generally struggles a bit against Sheik, so having somebody to fall back on is a pretty good idea for that MU, too.

 

[Delta Chae]

Link can actually provide Marth a bit of a challenge, and Marth has to try a lot in order to beat Falcon because of Falcons tech-chasing game and heavy punishes. Also, sometimes one of the spacies could play a bit faster or in a slightly different manner than you've seen before as a Marth, and you get kinda stuck, sort of like what happened to PPMD vs. Armada at Apex. That was a great time to have a secondary. Also, Marth generally struggles a bit against Sheik, so having somebody to fall back on is a pretty good idea for that MU, too.

I think the main reason people think Link provides challenge for Marth is a lack of matchup knowledge. Even with that in mind worst case it's probably 6:4 in Marth's favor. Link has projectiles but Marth outclasses him in pretty much every other category besides OoS options which isn't saying much since Marth's OoS game is really bad to begin with.

I don't feel like Marth has to try too hard to beat Falcon as long as you respect Falcon's moves and play fairly safe since Marth's moves very comfortably outrange Falcon's.

Definitely Sheik is Marth's worst matchup that you can feasibly expect to face in a tournament but it's still winnable.

Overall I think having a secondary is a good idea but you can get away with exclusively playing Marth.