Good Secondaries

[FE_Hector]

I think the main reason people think Link provides challenge for Marth is a lack of matchup knowledge. Even with that in mind worst case it's probably 6:4 in Marth's favor. Link has projectiles but Marth outclasses him in pretty much every other category besides OoS options which isn't saying much since Marth's OoS game is really bad to begin with.

I don't feel like Marth has to try too hard to beat Falcon as long as you respect Falcon's moves and play fairly safe since Marth's moves very comfortably outrange Falcon's.

Definitely Sheik is Marth's worst matchup that you can feasibly expect to face in a tournament but it's still winnable.

Overall I think having a secondary is a good idea but you can get away with exclusively playing Marth.

Falcon straight up outpunishes Marth, and he punishes HARD. Also, his techchasing skills are well known.

I'll agree that Falcon and Sheik are beatable, but I really don't think going Marth only is a good idea. At least have a good secondary to handle new threats

 

[Delta Chae]

Falcon straight up outpunishes Marth, and he punishes HARD. Also, his techchasing skills are well known.

I'll agree that Falcon and Sheik are beatable, but I really don't think going Marth only is a good idea. At least have a good secondary to handle new threats

That's why I said if you play safe against Falcon. He does outpunish Marth but if you can avoid being punished as much as possible that becomes less of an issue but you will get punished hard for any mistake you make.

I never said it was a good idea to only play Marth, it's a terrible idea in fact but it's possible to get away with it. PewPewU for instance does have a pocket Fox and Falco but for the most part sticks with Marth, so possible but very difficult and perhaps not worth the effort.

 

[FE_Hector]

That's why I said if you play safe against Falcon. He does outpunish Marth but if you can avoid being punished as much as possible that becomes less of an issue but you will get punished hard for any mistake you make.

I never said it was a good idea to only play Marth, it's a terrible idea in fact but it's possible to get away with it. PewPewU for instance does have a pocket Fox and Falco but for the most part sticks with Marth, so possible but very difficult and perhaps not worth the effort.

Oh alright, I misinterpreted what you said a bit.

 

[balloonpower]

shiek is like 60:40 in shieks favour from my experience (though apparently at the ultra top level its pretty even) and falcon isnt that hard.

link's a 50:50 at worst IMO.

it's nice to have a secondary but solo marth is fine IMO

 

[FE_Hector]

shiek is like 60:40 in shieks favour from my experience (though apparently at the ultra top level its pretty even) and falcon isnt that hard.

link's a 50:50 at worst IMO.

it's nice to have a secondary but solo marth is fine IMO

Saus vs the Moon proved how hard Link can be to Marth.

If you know the Sheik MU and have practiced it, it's fairly close to 50-50, but still a pain.

Watch PPMD vs S2J from this year's Apex. Falcon can be a massive threat

 

[Delta Chae]

Saus vs the Moon proved how hard Link can be to Marth.

If you know the Sheik MU and have practiced it, it's fairly close to 50-50, but still a pain.

Watch PPMD vs S2J from this year's Apex. Falcon can be a massive threat

Regarding SAUS vs the The Moon, I think that's less any real advantage Link has over Marth and more of The Moon just being really bad at matchups he doesn't know.

 

[menotyou135]

I use Puff as a secondary for a few reasons:

1) Puff beats Sheik which is my personal worst matchup.

2) Spacing ideas between marth fair and jiggs bair are similar

3) She doesn't require as much practice as other characters (not saying she doesn't still require a lot of practice)

4) I can avoid banning dreamland and when they try to take me there, I just pick Puff meaning I get another CP.

5) She is good against other Marths, Falco, ICs, Samus, and Falcon if my Marth isn't cutting it.

6) She beats peach even harder than Marth

7) She is less venerable to low tier jank like Pikachu, Ganon, DK, and Yoshi

8) Starting as puff against a Falco who doesn't know I am a Marth main means I get FD for free on my CP

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Technically, doesn't really need a secondary for any matchup. I don't think any matchup is worse than even for Marth at top level, not even against Sheik, as long as you are good enough. But let's be realistic, it's hard to be playing your best with one character all the time, so with the harder matchups, having secondaries aren't ever a bad idea. So here are my possible secondaries for any matchups that can be considered challenging for Marth:

You really don't need a secondary against and , except for maybe Fox on Dream Land, since Marth is easily the best counter for both of those characters.

For , you could choose Sheik, Fox or Falco.

For , you could use Fox or Puff. Or if you are adventurous, you could go Ice Climbers.

For , go Fox. Pretty easy.

Contrary to what some people have said, I don't think is a bad matchup for Marth, but if we say that it is, learning Peach or Ganondorf would certainly solve that problem, but you could also use Fox too.

I think Marth wins these matchups, but if you want a secondary for and , I'd just go to Fox, pretty simple.

For the more odd matchups like and , I think Fox and Falco are probably the best secondaries, but I still think Marth wins those matchups regardless.

For , I'm not sure what you could use as a secondary if you are Marth because Marth is supposed to be one of Samus's worst matchups. So...I guess Sheik or Puff? But still, Marth wins that matchup for sure.

And some people have mentioned as potentially being a difficult matchup for Marth, which I don't believe, but I guess Fox would solve that problem too.

So in total, I think you could use Fox for all those matchups, except for maybe the Samus matchup, so having Fox as your only secondary would be ideal. If you want to go even further and start dual-maining, a lot of people, including PPMD, say that the best dual main combination is Fox-Marth. So learning Fox isn't a bad idea if you are a Marth main. But like I said at the beginning, you can still technically just solo main Marth without using secondaries. It wouldn't be easy, but you could still do it.

 

[-ACE-]

Marth's punishes take more effort than sheik's. Still a doable matchup. Slightly in sheiks favor.

A marth with good walls and pressure bodies falcon. If there are too many holes in his neutral game and he allows falcon to get inside, he's screwed. Marth/falcon is slightly in marth's favor imo, very style-dependent matchup. Dart's marth's style is really good vs falcon.

Marth has all the tools to beat spacies. A top level fox is probably his hardest matchup (save FD), and properly dealing with falco's lasers takes a lot of practice and patience (which complicates the neutral game), but there is no secondary needed here. Forget about it.

I really think marth beats IC's and pika, puff too. There aren't a ton of marths that play the IC's/pika matchup well imo (partially due to lack of representation). Regarding your mindset, you have to admit that these characters have insanely good neutral game and can't be underestimated. Stick to the safest ways of approaching/dealing damage when they're at low%. Abuse marth's strengths (ground game, fair, ASDI grabs, etc) and avoid basic traps. Intelligent edgeguarding, grabs, gimps..... Marth wins.

Marth doesn't really need a secondary. But if there are holes in your play that you either cannot identify or can't fix in a timely fashion, try whatever top/high tier did your style and/or is the best counter to YOUR problem matchups (not marth's).

 

[FE_Hector]

Marth's punishes take more effort than sheik's. Still a doable matchup. Slightly in sheiks favor.

A marth with good walls and pressure bodies falcon. If there are too many holes in his neutral game and he allows falcon to get inside, he's screwed. Marth/falcon is slightly in marth's favor imo, very style-dependent matchup. Dart's marth's style is really good vs falcon.

Marth has all the tools to beat spacies. A top level fox is probably his hardest matchup (save FD), and properly dealing with falco's lasers takes a lot of practice and patience (which complicates the neutral game), but there is no secondary needed here. Forget about it.

I really think marth beats IC's and pika, puff too. There aren't a ton of marths that play the IC's/pika matchup well imo (partially due to lack of representation). Regarding your mindset, you have to admit that these characters have insanely good neutral game and can't be underestimated. Stick to the safest ways of approaching/dealing damage when they're at low%. Abuse marth's strengths (ground game, fair, ASDI grabs, etc) and avoid basic traps. Intelligent edgeguarding, grabs, gimps..... Marth wins.

Marth doesn't really need a secondary. But if there are holes in your play that you either cannot identify or can't fix in a timely fashion, try whatever top/high tier did your style and/or is the best counter to YOUR problem matchups (not marth's).

I generally agree with this. Honestly, my only reason that I think a good secondary is a good idea for anybody (except maybe Fox mains lol), is because sometimes your style of play with one character can't quite cut it against somebody else's style of play with another character (like PPMD using Falco for a bit against Armada in the Apex 2015 grandfinals so he could understand the Fox better). I'm not sure. It's difficult to word, but for new and unknown threats, I think having a good secondary is a good idea, though not entirely necessary.

 

[Ladder]

Would peach or doc be good?

 

[FE_Hector]

I think Peach COULD be, but honestly if you want a secondary for Marth, go for one of the spacies. They cover up his weaknesses way better. I have no idea how Peach fairs against Sheik and Puff, and those are going to be your two biggest worries.

 

[Ladder]

I think Peach COULD be, but honestly if you want a secondary for Marth, go for one of the spacies. They cover up his weaknesses way better. I have no idea how Peach fairs against Sheik and Puff, and those are going to be your two biggest worries.

Nah peach sucks against jigss, I've heard doc beats jiggs though

 

[FE_Hector]

I feel like Doc's too slow for beating Sheik, though, which is why you're gonna almost definitely want a spacie as a secondary.

 

[1MachGO]

Like -ACE- said, there really isn't a reason to use a secondary as Marth. Marth's only threat at top level seems to be Sheik, but even that is arguably in his favor.

Plus if you think Marth/Sheik is as hard as Falcon/Sheik or Puff/Fox or other losing MUs top players overcome on the regular you need to put your skill as a player in perspective.

Even then, lets say that it does come down to personal preference and you are picking up a secondary to alleviate a mental block. What makes Fox/Falco a better choice than, say, Sheik or Puff? Seems to me that your odds of learning a low APM character to outperform a Sheik in the ditto or Puff/Sheik MU are much greater than picking up one of the most commonly played characters in the game who everyone practices against.

 

[FE_Hector]

Honestly, the biggest reason for picking Falco in particular is that he and Marth do a pretty good job at covering each others weaknesses. On top of that, they have really similar fundamentals and Falco has some swagtastic combos. In all seriousness, though, I think that a Falco is a really big advantage for a Marth main because of the entirely different playstyles needed to use the two characters with a high level of skill.

 

[1MachGO]

I feel you could apply the same reasoning to any combination of top tier characters. Even then, you could still find issues with them. The problem with Falco/Marth, is that neither character has a particularly great advantage on Dreamland which PPMD has acknowledged.

My vote honestly goes to Marth/Sheik. M2K has muscled through tournaments with this combo for years without hardly needing to innovate his neutral past 50/50s. You can simplify stage and MU situations rather easily and the lower APM demanded makes consistency more likely.

 

[FE_Hector]

Honestly, I'm fine with both Marth and Falco on DL. People complain about their weaknesses on those stages, but it's pretty easy to compensate for. You just need a bit of creativity.

 

[1MachGO]

No offense, but that is a pretty vague solution for the measurable problems Falco and Marth have to face on that stage. Obviously the issue is irrelevant at lower levels of play, but the characteristics of a stage become a serious factor in several MUs. Particularly against Fox (who has tons of room to run around to avoid Marth and Falco's zoning tools) and other chars such as Puff, Peach, and Sheik (who can take advantage of their opponent's fragility through their increased survivability).

 

[FE_Hector]

The biggest complaint you hear about Marth in DL is his inability to police the platorms properly. SHFFL uair handles the side ones just fine, and you can really take your pick of aerials to handle the top platorm. You also have more room to space your opponent out with fairs and dtilts, even if they do have a bit more room to avoid you. The high ceiling is an advantage against players who enjoy KOs off of the top, which I personally don't do as Marth. It's not much harder to set up for edgeguard situations than in other stages, and you have plenty of room to set up walls against your opponent.

Falco's biggest disadvantage on DL is that it's weird to police the lower platforms with lasers, but a full jump fast fall can place you there quickly. Fox also has to commit to a full jmp to reach those platofrms, so it's not a huge deal. Falco has all the space in the world to unleash his amazing combos on DL, and it's not like his tech chasing game is that weak, so his enemies having more room doesn't make too big of a difference. Anyways, at close distances, Falco can AC bair to zone out just about anybody quite effectively. PPMD's done it before to Armada's Fox before.

 

[_trix_]

I don't think marth needs a secondary, but if you're having trouble against falcon and sheik fox will cover those really well. He also beats puff pretty hard. Using peach or puff for dreamland would be useful too

 

[FEOwain]

Marth beats Shiek about 55:45 because Marth can juggle Shiek for about 100% or a kill. Honestly an easy matchup.
I feel Falcon is Marth's best secondary. Falcon hates FOD, Marth loves it. Marth hates DL, Falcon loves it. I used to secondary Fox but then I realized that Falcon has great movement and range, so I instantly knew that Falcon was the only secondary for me.

 

[FE_Hector]

Marth does not beat Sheik 55-45. You must be playing very meh Sheik's if you think that he can bring her up to 100% quickly. Uthrow utilt is only guaranteed after about 21%. IDK the exact %s, but he has very little that's guaranteed, and there's a lot of tools in her arsenal to avoid followups.

BTW, Owain... Ike and Hector are both about 1000x better than Owain, though I'll admit Owain has potential.

 

[FEOwain]

Marth does not beat Sheik 55-45. You must be playing very meh Sheik's if you think that he can bring her up to 100% quickly. Uthrow utilt is only guaranteed after about 21%. IDK the exact %s, but he has very little that's guaranteed, and there's a lot of tools in her arsenal to avoid followups.

Shiek is trash when above someone, and Marth loves when someone is above him. It might not be 55:45 but it's definitely not that hard.

 

[FE_Hector]

Sheik may not be good when she's above somebody else, but Marth is trashier and she has way better followups on him. She also has basically the single most annoying recovery ever to exist and a grab that can worm past Marth's. My bro is a Sheik main. I'd know.

 

[1MachGO]

And again, it is hard to apply your anecdotal beliefs to the evidence found at top level. PPMD even states that Marth has the edge over Sheik in the current meta. Now that is clearly subject the change, but Marth does possess distinct advantages in the neutral and punish. Sure, Sheik can do more off a grab than Marth can on average, but his potential gain from one juggle is absurdly higher. When you begin to apply this logic in a scenario where players make less mistakes, its easy to see how Marth can outperform Sheik somewhat.

And no, Sheik is not better than Marth at dealing with opponents below them. Not only does Marth have disjointed range and superior air mobility, but he at least has SOME mix ups such as dair intercepts and side b midair stalls. Sheik has no real way to challenge a well spaced Marth uair or utilt.

 

[FE_Hector]

Actually, taking out the chain stalls her falling speed, which can completely mess up anything he's doing. I'm not saying that the MU is horrendously against Marth, but I'd say it's either 50-50 or 55-45 against Marth. Marth's dair is a huge commitment to stopping combos, and using his sideB to stall his movement can easily be accounted for using micropositioning of her uair. Maybe my bro has a slightly better understanding of how to combo a Marth in the air, but we fight regularly and I promise you that it's way easier for her to escape combos than it is for him, and her kill moves are way better.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

PPMD even states that Marth has the edge over Sheik in the current meta.

He said Marth has the edge in top level right now. In every other skill level Sheik wins.

 

[_trix_]

When ppmd says it's slightly in Marths favor, he is talking about to the top level, which is very very different from the bottom-mid level. Also Marth can't juggle sheik for an easy 100%, the first 50% is very difficult to combo if they're DIng properly, and after that all you can really do to combo is to do a couple upairs, which ussualy lead into nothing but more upairs.

 

[1MachGO]

Actually, taking out the chain stalls her falling speed, which can completely mess up anything he's doing. I'm not saying that the MU is horrendously against Marth, but I'd say it's either 50-50 or 55-45 against Marth. Marth's dair is a huge commitment to stopping combos, and using his sideB to stall his movement can easily be accounted for using micropositioning of her uair. Maybe my bro has a slightly better understanding of how to combo a Marth in the air, but we fight regularly and I promise you that it's way easier for her to escape combos than it is for him, and her kill moves are way better.

Chain is not a good option. C'mon.

I said side-b was a mix up. Not an option you can rely on. If uair can be "micropositioned" that would indicate the positioning is fragile and would be susceptible to mistakes.

If you are being out juggled by a Sheik, you need to improve as a player. Plain and simple. Marth has superior air mobility and a massive, arcing upair with low knockback scaling and an extremely low cooldown fair that can combo into his finishers such as fsmash or dair. Sheik has weaker air mobility, no disjointed hitbox, and a high knockback uair with a precise hitbox and higher landing lag. The logic simply isn't there for Marth to be inferior in this area; especially when Marth has more opportunities to combo/defend himself than sheik. Sheik relies on her dthrow, tilts, dash attack, fair, and edge guards to kill Marth.

When ppmd says it's slightly in Marths favor, he is talking about to the top level, which is very very different from the bottom-mid level. Also Marth can't juggle sheik for an easy 100%, the first 50% is very difficult to combo if they're DIng properly, and after that all you can really do to combo is to do a couple upairs, which ussualy lead into nothing but more upairs.

He said Marth has the edge in top level right now. In every other skill level Sheik wins.

Not sure what you guys are trying to argue. Of course top level is different, but top level is always more important because it expresses the current limits of a character.

I mean, is the ideal not to improve? Can a top level Marth not body a mid level Sheik? Are top level strategies irrelevant at mid level play? If so, then how significant was the mid level matchup as a metric?

A secondary is only necessary when your skill as a player becomes largely insignificant to winning the MU. Again, look to the current limits of your character when determining this.

 

[Ladder]

I would like say that in PAL marth basicly beats sheik at any level due to sheik having no chaingrab
So that makes doc like a pretty good secondary for PAL I guess
But I'm sticking to solo marth for sure

 

[FE_Hector]

Chain is not a good option. C'mon.

I said side-b was a mix up. Not an option you can rely on. If uair can be "micropositioned" that would indicate the positioning is fragile and would be susceptible to mistakes.

If you are being out juggled by a Sheik, you need to improve as a player. Plain and simple. Marth has superior air mobility and a massive, arcing upair with low knockback scaling and an extremely low cooldown fair that can combo into his finishers such as fsmash or dair. Sheik has weaker air mobility, no disjointed hitbox, and a high knockback uair with a precise hitbox and higher landing lag. The logic simply isn't there for Marth to be inferior in this area; especially when Marth has more opportunities to combo/defend himself than sheik. Sheik relies on her dthrow, tilts, dash attack, fair, and edge guards to kill Marth.

Her uair can be micropositioned. I've had my bro use the uair in such a way that it catches me regardless of what I do (FF, nothing, pull back, move forwards, or sideB either direction).

He's not outjuggling me, but the KB on her uair is way greater than Marth's uair, and her bair and fair both are ridiculously good moves for her.

 

[Stride]

I would like say that in PAL marth basicly beats sheik at any level due to sheik having no chaingrab
So that makes doc like a pretty good secondary for PAL I guess
But I'm sticking to solo marth for sure

It's not the lack of chaingrab so much as the drastically worse down throw in general that makes Sheik worse in PAL (and to a lesser extent the reduced kill power of up air and up smash). When can Sheik even chaingrab Marth in NTSC anyway? <30%, and only on DI away?

What would a Marth main use Doc for? Doc sucks, and he especially sucks against the characters Marth doesn't do so great against.

 

[FE_Hector]

It's not the lack of chaingrab so much as the drastically worse down throw in general that makes Sheik worse in PAL (and to a lesser extent the reduced kill power of up air and up smash). When can Sheik even chaingrab Marth in NTSC anyway? <30%, and only on DI away?

What would a Marth main use Doc for? Doc sucks, and he especially sucks against the characters Marth doesn't do so great against.

NTSC Sheik is capable of dthrow CGing the spacies for quite a while through just a little bit of tech chasing. I'm pretty sure I've seen... Fairly sure it's Plup who CGd Leffen from like 0-70% using Sheik.

 

[Stride]

NTSC Sheik is capable of dthrow CGing the spacies for quite a while through just a little bit of tech chasing. I'm pretty sure I've seen... Fairly sure it's Plup who CGd Leffen from like 0-70% using Sheik.

That's techchasing on reaction, which does still work in PAL (though it's significantly harder/worse); not chaingrabbing. You can't down throw chaingrab spacies.

You're probably thinking of DruggedFox vs Leffen at Evo; the one time Plup's Sheik played Leffen (at CEO) his reaction techchasing didn't look too hot.

 

[FE_Hector]

That's techchasing on reaction, which does still work in PAL (though it's significantly harder/worse); not chaingrabbing. You can't down throw chaingrab spacies.

You're probably thinking of DruggedFox vs Leffen at Evo; the one time Plup's Sheik played Leffen (at CEO) his reaction techchasing didn't look too hot.

Maybe I am thinking of DruggedFox, I just remember Leffen getting the crap CGd out of him. IDK, I just consider it a CG because it's conceptually similar to Marth's CG. You've gotta look at how they're DIing and react to that if you're Marth. Only difference is that Sheik has to look at how they tech.

 

[1MachGO]

Her uair can be micropositioned. I've had my bro use the uair in such a way that it catches me regardless of what I do (FF, nothing, pull back, move forwards, or sideB either direction).

He's not outjuggling me, but the KB on her uair is way greater than Marth's uair, and her bair and fair both are ridiculously good moves for her.

You are continuing to utilize fallacious arguments. "Microposition" is just you using a buzzword you heard from the Kadano thread; the word you are looking for is "spacing" or "spaced".

Secondly, and hopefully for the final time, your anecdotal statements about you and your bro is not an empirical argument. You certainly aren't top level players and you can't expect others to accept such vague anecdotes as actual reasoning. If you actually want to legitimize your points you should illustrate it in cold hard facts or find evidence in high level footage.

And thirdly, the discussion is about juggling moves. Sheik's fair and bair are finishers. A high knockback uair is not good for juggling (unless vs. fast fallers) because it creates massive distance between the juggler and the victim. You could easily DI away to avoid follow ups. The same can't be said for a low knockback uair like Marth's with disjointed range.

 

[FE_Hector]

You are continuing to utilize fallacious arguments. "Microposition" is just you using a buzzword you heard from the Kadano thread; the word you are looking for is "spacing" or "spaced".

Secondly, and hopefully for the final time, your anecdotal statements about you and your bro is not an empirical argument. You certainly aren't top level players and you can't expect others to accept such vague anecdotes as actual reasoning. If you actually want to legitimize your points you should illustrate it in cold hard facts or find evidence in high level footage.

And thirdly, the discussion is about juggling moves. Sheik's fair and bair are finishers. A high knockback uair is not good for juggling (unless vs. fast fallers) because it creates massive distance between the juggler and the victim. You could easily DI away to avoid follow ups. The same can't be said for a low knockback uair like Marth's with disjointed range.

1.) I actually don't even spend time on Kadano's thread. The word I used was the one I intended to use.

2.) You can stop just sounding like a condescending *******. After a certain point, it is most certainly possible for Sheik to stright together a few uairs. Anyways, the fair and bair are both most certainly excellent kill moves. Dairing Sheik out of uair requires super good timing.

3.) At lower %s, dash attack is definitely a good option for a few hits.

Besides that, you're absolutely right, I'm not a top level player, and I'll freely admit that.

 

[_trix_]

@ 1 1MachGO just because it hits them high up doesn't mean it can't juggle, they don't have to be in hitstun the entire time to be comboed. For example, when marth juggles peach with upair it doesn't actually keep her in hitstun the entire time, it's just that being outside of hitstun doesn't matter much when you have literally nothing to come down with. Sheik marth is the same way. Sheiks upairs just out priorize all of Marths moves to come down with (except for counter and dair), making it super hard to come down. Also it doesn't matter that marth can di off stage to get away from sheiks upairs, because thats suicidal. Also, sheik can actually finisher he juggles with a fair or nair, while marth can't finish for **** cuz all his aerial are weak af. And stop acting like you know everything, you're not m2k.

 

[_trix_]

Anyways, I feel like this discussion has been pretty good. We should start up a marth matchup discussion thread. We're like the only character in top 8 that doesn't have one.