The Young Izzy Iz
Smash Apprentice
Pretty much what it says on the tin. Which characters are most beneficial to pick up as secondaries to counteract Marth's less advantageous match-ups?
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Fox 2 framesObviously a matter of preference, but I'd also recommend Falco for the people who aren't Fox mains because his SH is easier to do than Fox's is. Don't hold me to the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that, if we're talking in terms of max # of frames for the jump button to be pressed, Marth has 4, Falco has 3 (maybe 4), and Fox has 2. On a side note, I think bouncing dummy controller's up and down with Shine -> dair is fun with him, but that's another discussion.
The sheik matchup?My secondary is puff.
I wish I could say I had a better reason than "because I like getting rest kills".
And that bair.... dang that bairMy secondary is puff.
I wish I could say I had a better reason than "because I like getting rest kills".
IC??Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.
Yoshi and Pikachu are kinda bad too. But ICs not really.Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.
How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.Marth's worst matchups are Sheik, Falcon, and Ice Climbers. Fox is great in all of those matchups.
Sheik has numerous followups from dthrow at a wide variety of percents that are pretty much impossible to get out of. Marth's movement lends itself to a better neutral game centered on dash dancing and spaced dtilts, but if Sheik gets a grab, she has heavy guaranteed punishes.Sheik I am not sure about.
I think this match up is even, but I know I struggled a ton with Falcon back in my early Marth days, because I didn't know how to DI anything, and Falcon's nair pops floaties up in a way that sets him up for more nairs and then up airs to knee.How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.
The most important part of this being "if Sheik gets a grab". In my opinion, it's a rather difficult MU for Marth, but if you learn it, it's plenty winnable. Marth's sword lends him an excellent defensive tool in the air provided he's not in hitstun that can outspace all of Sheik's aerials. I've been able to successfully dair a rising uair from Sheik to return the game to neutral, and while I'll admit it's hard, you can bair or fair Sheik to stop her fairs.Sheik has numerous followups from dthrow at a wide variety of percents that are pretty much impossible to get out of. Marth's movement lends itself to a better neutral game centered on dash dancing and spaced dtilts, but if Sheik gets a grab, she has heavy guaranteed punishes.
I agree, it's definitely winnable. It's a lot easier to hit sheik out of an uair or fair than a nair or bair. Marth's grab range is only kinda longer than sheik's. Her standing grab is obviously shorter, but you have to respect the distance and speed of boost grab in neutral. Plus, she can play a 50/50 game with dash attack/boost grab, either of which is extremely juicy and will lead to a combo on marth (given that you are beyond cc range). But yes, Marth also has plenty of tool to deal with her, so it's not a horrible matchup.The most important part of this being "if Sheik gets a grab". In my opinion, it's a rather difficult MU for Marth, but if you learn it, it's plenty winnable. Marth's sword lends him an excellent defensive tool in the air provided he's not in hitstun that can outspace all of Sheik's aerials. I've been able to successfully dair a rising uair from Sheik to return the game to neutral, and while I'll admit it's hard, you can bair or fair Sheik to stop her fairs.
Past that, Marth's grab range is way longer than Sheik's is, and his DD puts hers to shame. I've found that not taking the mindset of "the Sheik-Marth MU is a pain for Marth" as "it's nearly impossible for Marth to beat Sheik" helps a lot. Keep an open mind, wobble her, and don't let her get into your head. On a side note, she's not that tough to edgeguard at all.
As far as the boost grab goes, I'm typically either able to dash dance out of the way or I'll simply spot dodge it. It's kinda funny to see what she'll do afterwards because so many people fully expect their grabs to land.I agree, it's definitely winnable. It's a lot easier to hit sheik out of an uair or fair than a nair or bair. Marth's grab range is only kinda longer than sheik's. Her standing grab is obviously shorter, but you have to respect the distance and speed of boost grab in neutral. Plus, she can play a 50/50 game with dash attack/boost grab, either of which is extremely juicy and will lead to a combo on marth (given that you are beyond cc range). But yes, Marth also has plenty of tool to deal with her, so it's not a horrible matchup.
Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)I would say Marth's troublesome match-ups are Falco and ICs.
Falco I say is problomatic simply due to having one of the best ways to deny Marth's good ground traits. The best trait Marth has going into the match-up with Falco is punishes. However, without an effective way to create situations where he can start his punishes I think the match-up is more in Falco's favor.
A 60-40 or 55-45, regardless of who its against, is barely a disadvantage. Either way, the Top 4 are, in my opinion, fairly well matched.Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)
Marth outranges everything Falco has, is much faster, has far better DD game, and can deal with lasers due to crouching out of run and d-tilt, has amazing punish game against Falco (if you're grabbed against Marth as Falco you should be dead or at least 70%), and has cactuar dashing to deal with lasers. Marth has all of the tools to beat Falco and then some.
Now this is not to say it's unwinnable, which it isn't by any means. Most likely 60-40 marth maybe 55-45. Falco has his auto-approach with lasers and one shine on marth can easily give you 40% if you're good at following DI.
I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.Any Falco will tell you that Marth Falco is the hardest MU out of the top 4 characters (See: Westballz VGBC Xanadu interview)
Marth outranges everything Falco has, is much faster, has far better DD game, and can deal with lasers due to crouching out of run and d-tilt, has amazing punish game against Falco (if you're grabbed against Marth as Falco you should be dead or at least 70%), and has cactuar dashing to deal with lasers. Marth has all of the tools to beat Falco and then some.
EDIT: Not to mention Edgeguards which marth can easily do to falco
Now this is not to say it's unwinnable, which it isn't by any means. Most likely 60-40 marth maybe 55-45. Falco has his auto-approach with lasers and one shine on marth can easily give you 40% if you're good at following DI.
That's a lot of my take on the Marth-Sheik MU. At least the way that my bro and I play, it tends to be whoever is able to get a tiny bit of stage control is going to take that stock. For example, I was able yesterday to 0-death him via grab -> back throw (he missed tech) -> reverse f-smash -> wavedash off -> roll up (he lands on edge with Vanish) -> f-smash -> wavedash off for the stock. Later on in the battle, though, he was able to f-tilt -> u-air -> u-air -> fair -> needle gimp and I was done. So much of these top 4 MUs is whoever can get a tiny bit of momentum first. What can make the MU tough is when you struggle to actually get that momentum.I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.
Which from several marth players of say PewpewU or M2K (for the longest time) they play at the pace of the opposing falco finding themselves in shield a ton or unable to use any movement due to lasers. In this regard, I feel Falco has the advantage. Saying a person has a really strong punish against a character is not really valid because pretty much any character has a solid punish on Fox/Falco. The strength of a character comes from how well they can ever force that punish to occur.
Stage choice really plays a big part in why the match-up is so bad for Falco imo. Obviously FD is bad because Falco can get M2K'd off a single grab if two competent people are playing but on other stages like YS and to a lesser extent BF Marth's range advantage with the sword is so extremely that he can basically zone a third of the stage at any given moment. Utilt / SHFFL uair from below covers Falco's escape to platforms and ftilt covers below the platforms. If the two are in neutral as long as Marth doesn't make poor decisions when he advances on the Falco its really a matter of time before Falco gets boxed in somewhere. The key difference here between the Fox match-up is that Fox's speed always him to play Marth's DD game right back so that he doesn't get zoned as hard. In addition Fox's full jump will take him like, halfway across BF out of a dash so escaping zoning is a little easier.I suppose much of it depends upon what you value most in a match-up. To me, either character can take a stock from zero. Marth obtains in-hitstun or tech chase advantages compared to Falco for punishes. The strength Falco has in the match-up I feel is being able to more easily generate situations where a character is a in a bad spot. Falco is pretty much always the one in most control until Marth manages to hit Falco.
Which from several marth players of say PewpewU or M2K (for the longest time) they play at the pace of the opposing falco finding themselves in shield a ton or unable to use any movement due to lasers. In this regard, I feel Falco has the advantage. Saying a person has a really strong punish against a character is not really valid because pretty much any character has a solid punish on Fox/Falco. The strength of a character comes from how well they can ever force that punish to occur.
Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.I would say Marth's troublesome match-ups are Falco and ICs.
Falco I say is problomatic simply due to having one of the best ways to deny Marth's good ground traits. The best trait Marth has going into the match-up with Falco is punishes. However, without an effective way to create situations where he can start his punishes I think the match-up is more in Falco's favor.
However, my idea with ICs is not really from much experience. The troublesome thing is that Marth's hits are often fairly weak. So, hitting one IC can often result in being hit by the other and generating a situation where ICs win against Marth by trading.
Sheik I am not sure about.
How is Falcon troublesome? I see Falcon has having traits which are effectively a worse Fox and I expect both of them to approach the match-up against Marth is similar ways.
It's a fairly even matchup. I wouldn't say it's a struggle for ICs at all. In fact, unless you know the matchup very well, it's difficult for Marth. Fly did lose two sets to PewPewU in 2013, but Wobbles also 3-0'd PewPewU that same year.IC??
Last time I checked, a lot of Ice Climbers struggled against Marth.
Yeah, that is, in my opinion, a ton of Falcon's S-Tier ranking. Those throws follow up so easily and deal ridiculous damage (was that like 13% off of an fthrow?), and his tech chasing game is ridiculous. And then there's that knee... that brutal, brutal knee. Lucky me I'm getting a Falco ready. I've heard he fares much better against CF.Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.
Specifically against Falcon as Marth, it's difficult to out-punish him because his grabs lead to more damage, and avoiding Falcon's grabs requires you to dash dance into areas that Falcon can easily cover with shffl'd aerials. When you grab Falcon, you have to react and execute extremely well to get a punish that is on par with Falcon's easy combos on you.
Just look at the damage differential and momentum imbalance in this match from the number of grabs that both players got:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM2fHNuM-Xo#t=2m13s
Most of what you bring up I feel is relevant when there is significant human error on the Marth's end. Yes, Marth has an annoying issue where his ability to tack on damage is slow and requires more hits. Compared to say Falcon where you need fewer. Again, this is an issue predominately for those who drop combos often.Because of Falcon's weight, you need a lot more hits to kill Falcon than to kill Fox. In neutral, Falcon has more range than Fox with nair and uair. Falcon has technically a better punish game than Fox because with correct DI, it's easy to escape Fox's u-throw combos if you DI the u-throw behind Fox and DI the uair the opposite direction, but Falcon's hits keep you close enough to follow-up even with pretty good DI. Falcon's uair patrols the platforms much better than Fox's bair because he can poke through the platforms with a short hop and keep his positional advantage, while Fox has to commit to full jumps.
Specifically against Falcon as Marth, it's difficult to out-punish him because his grabs lead to more damage, and avoiding Falcon's grabs requires you to dash dance into areas that Falcon can easily cover with shffl'd aerials. When you grab Falcon, you have to react and execute extremely well to get a punish that is on par with Falcon's easy combos on you.
Marth's movement is effective I would say only in the situation where Falco is already unable to dash back and use a laser. If Falco goes for a laser you can be close enough to punish the laser. If he SH aerials in place or dashes at you you can either sword or dash away and punish ending lag. In any other situation, Marth cannot effectively force Falco towards the ledge and take the space that was left behind.If the two are in neutral as long as Marth doesn't make poor decisions when he advances on the Falco its really a matter of time before Falco gets boxed in somewhere. The key difference here between the Fox match-up is that Fox's speed always him to play Marth's DD game right back so that he doesn't get zoned as hard. In addition Fox's full jump will take him like, halfway across BF out of a dash so escaping zoning is a little easier.
Personally, I'm normally going to opt for a back throw instead of a down throw. I think it gives you way more options while still granting you the extra stage that can be gained through a down throw. Also, the way they go above and behind you gives you options you don't get from down throw, such as utilt if they try to DI inMarth's punish game on Falcon is great. But the problem is that there are some instances where pure reaction tech chases are not possible with certain DI on your d-throw or f-throw. Furthermore, Falcon can opt to not tech, and even if you hit him for it, he can usually take the solo hit and restore back to neutral without too much difficulty.
Basically, my thesis statement is that the Marth has to be playing really well to beat a Falcon of equal skill. Look at PewPewU vs Gravy from CEO and PPMD vs S2J from Apex. Even $Mike has taken games off PPMD's Marth at locals, and obviously Kevin Nanney is tiers above $Mike in skill.
Yeah I'd say go for Falco, I tried out Sheik and Fox, and both don't seem to be as effective as Falco.From the consensus I'm getting Sheik or Falco. My Falco isn't bad already and I can do some of the tricks like Short-hop laser into smash/tilt/whatever I just really need to work on Wavedashing out of shine so I can continue my pillars (if I can't get the utilt). I've been wanting to pick up Sheik for a while, so I guess this is a good chance to work on that.
Thanks for the help!
Link can actually provide Marth a bit of a challenge, and Marth has to try a lot in order to beat Falcon because of Falcons tech-chasing game and heavy punishes. Also, sometimes one of the spacies could play a bit faster or in a slightly different manner than you've seen before as a Marth, and you get kinda stuck, sort of like what happened to PPMD vs. Armada at Apex. That was a great time to have a secondary. Also, Marth generally struggles a bit against Sheik, so having somebody to fall back on is a pretty good idea for that MU, too.I don't really think you need a secondary as marth, you don't have any awful matchups as marth
I think the main reason people think Link provides challenge for Marth is a lack of matchup knowledge. Even with that in mind worst case it's probably 6:4 in Marth's favor. Link has projectiles but Marth outclasses him in pretty much every other category besides OoS options which isn't saying much since Marth's OoS game is really bad to begin with.Link can actually provide Marth a bit of a challenge, and Marth has to try a lot in order to beat Falcon because of Falcons tech-chasing game and heavy punishes. Also, sometimes one of the spacies could play a bit faster or in a slightly different manner than you've seen before as a Marth, and you get kinda stuck, sort of like what happened to PPMD vs. Armada at Apex. That was a great time to have a secondary. Also, Marth generally struggles a bit against Sheik, so having somebody to fall back on is a pretty good idea for that MU, too.