MERPIS
Smash Lord
Hello, I main wolf and Wario/ROB and I always get decimated by a good marth/lucina in tournaments. Can anyone recommend a good secondary to pick up? I used to use Olimar but I dont think he wins that
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Wait bowser actually still beats them? How about DKPlay Ike. He's easy to pick up and he destroys Marcina unless your opponent is better than you.
Other easy to pick-up characters that will do well for your needs include Bowser, Greninja, and Inkling.
I would say Shulk, but he isn't easy to use well.
I don't know about DK as I haven't played (or lost to) enough good ones, but it seems just as easy to beat him in neutral as in Smash 4. But in a set in the last tournament I went to, after beating the person's Pokémon Trainer, I lost to his Bowser. But it was the way I lost that really shook me.Wait bowser actually still beats them? How about DK
So I decided to go with ike, as I used to use him a lot and I figured he’d just do well in other matchups I find bad as well, but why does ike beat the marths? Arent they too fast for him?I don't know about DK as I haven't played (or lost to) enough good ones, but it seems just as easy to beat him in neutral as in Smash 4. But in a set in the last tournament I went to, after beating the person's Pokémon Trainer, I lost to his Bowser. But it was the way I lost that really shook me.
I couldn't get off the edge, first of all. Thanks to the heavily improved fire breath that is more effective against us than Charizard's now. Other than fire, the rest of his Ultimate tool kit stuffs all of our offensive options at the ledge (so it comes to reading our defensive ones). On stage, it isn't as easy as catching his jumps and juggling him anymore. Bowser saw the biggest fall speed increase and the biggest jumpsquat reductions out of the cast. Without that, we have a quick-moving, heavy character that out-ranges us far more than the other heavies and now has armor on the start-up of most of his A moves.
It isn't as impossible as I made it sound, but I do think Marth loses to Bowser, yes.
Ike beats all the fast characters right now, but even so, Marth and Lucina aren't fast.So I decided to go with ike, as I used to use him a lot and I figured he’d just do well in other matchups I find bad as well, but why does ike beat the marths? Arent they too fast for him?
They couldnt handle her aerials in smash 4 yet the majority of heavies (literally just bowser and DK) still won the matchup and in smash ultimate theyre even faster and stronger nowI disagree with Vipermoon about Bowser being a bad matchup, at least with Lucina. All the heavies are fairly easy for me if the skill-level is balanced. They can't handle Lucina's aerials. You don't have to juggle necessarily. But I find all the heavies fairly easy for Lucina to knock offstage, relying mainly on aerials, and then edgeguard. The only problem I have against them is the fact that any mistake I make could lead to a lost stock, even at low %.
Ike is definitely a bad matchup for both Marth and Lucina though. Really any of the swords with longer reach - Ike, Cloud, and Shulk. One way I've found to counter Ike's air game is staying crouched and throwing uptilt from there. Getting lower to the ground throws off the timing of Ike's aerials for a lot of players. I've also found Ike is easy to punish out of shield with sh nair.
Well I don't know what to say because I'm not even all that good, a bit above average but nothing more, and I have no trouble against any of the heavies except Ridley, who still isn't much of a problem. It takes a far superior opponent for me to lose against a heavy, and while it's technically, maybe possible that I've devised a brand new, superior strategy against heavies that's never occurred to other Lucina mains, I highly doubt that to be the case.They couldnt handle her aerials in smash 4 yet the majority of heavies (literally just bowser and DK) still won the matchup and in smash ultimate theyre even faster and stronger now
I'll back you up here, I main Bowser and Marth/Lucina and Chrom are by far the hardest match ups for me. All swordies give me trouble but Marth and Lucina have exceptional aerial attacks and edge guarding against heavies. Maybe it's our massive hurtbox, I dunno but I seem to lose a lot of exhanges and get rushed down too quickly. I've been at 2.8 - 3.1mil GSP with Bowser for about two weeks, and I lose probably %80 of matches against the better sword playersWell I don't know what to say because I'm not even all that good, a bit above average but nothing more, and I have no trouble against any of the heavies except Ridley, who still isn't much of a problem. It takes a far superior opponent for me to lose against a heavy, and while it's technically, maybe possible that I've devised a brand new, superior strategy against heavies that's never occurred to other Lucina mains, I highly doubt that to be the case.
I dunno. Maybe the official character stats and move damage and frame data support the idea that heavies are a good counter to Lucina, but my gameplay experience has not lined up with that.
Yaaa...Turns out I lied, biggs DEFINITELY can't keep up with them, in 4 they won because of their grabs beating out every move they had and their landing lag was easy for biggs to keep up, and we just removed both of those things. DK might be good, maybe even but the others outside of possibly k rool is just dead meat. So now I need a better character, I've been thinking cloud but cloud feels really awkward to play in this engine..I'll back you up here, I main Bowser and Marth/Lucina and Chrom are by far the hardest match ups for me. All swordies give me trouble but Marth and Lucina have exceptional aerial attacks and edge guarding against heavies. Maybe it's our massive hurtbox, I dunno but I seem to lose a lot of exhanges and get rushed down too quickly. I've been at 2.8 - 3.1mil GSP with Bowser for about two weeks, and I lose probably %80 of matches against the better sword players
I went back to your original post, and I see you said you main Wolf, Wario, and Rob. If it matters any, I actually find Wolf and Rob to be a really tough matchup against me with Lucina. Wolf might just be individually difficult for me b/c I have trouble tracking his movement. Rob definitely has matchup advantage over Lucina though. You should work on him.Yaaa...Turns out I lied, biggs DEFINITELY can't keep up with them, in 4 they won because of their grabs beating out every move they had and their landing lag was easy for biggs to keep up, and we just removed both of those things. DK might be good, maybe even but the others outside of possibly k rool is just dead meat. So now I need a better character, I've been thinking cloud but cloud feels really awkward to play in this engine..
May I ask how? You just kinda outrange all of my advances with stuff and since I'm a half bigg I can't really avoid stuff like that.Rob definitely has matchup advantage over Lucina though. You should work on him.
They definitely arent playing the matchup rightAgain, no certain answer but I've yet to meet a crock I can't skin on elite smash ( not that the bar there is high tbh)
lol mkleo opinionfwiw... several people in here listing Ike, but MKLeo lists Marcina among Ike's worst matchups.
the dude won ****ing genesis using ike and lucina lmaolol mkleo opinion
I agree with that but in order to beat Ike with Marcina you really have to have your parries down. His Nair is difficult to punish without a parry when it is well spaced. If you don't have a good way to deal with that move you can get steamrolled pretty quickly since he outranges Marcina, racks up damage easily, and kills so well.the dude won ****ing genesis using Ike and Lucina lmao
i don't think it's a good idea to just throw his opinion out like that
Nope. According to every top player's MU charts so far, Marcina (actually, Lucina) lose to no one and therefore must be the best character in the game.Good god according to Leo ike loses and according to Wadi ROB loses too
Does ANYONE in this game beat these characters?
Nerf plsNope. According to every top player's MU charts so far, Marcina (actually, Lucina) lose to no one and therefore must be the best character in the game.
Don't worry, it isn't true my dude.Nerf pls
Ok but does ANYONE have an advantageous matchup against lucinaDon't worry, it isn't true my dude.
I seriously thought your post yesterday at 8:57 was in a joking mood or sarcasm. And therefore my reply was. I don't actually think they lose to no one or that they're the best. The problem is marcina is a strong fundamentals character, so when they are better than their opponent, they will win because everything they were designed to do just works. Coincidentally, they suck just as much at winning in the opposite situation. But MU charts assume two players are at the same skill level.Ok but does ANYONE have an advantageous matchup against lucina
Greninja's really hard to play uh you got any advice for a day one greninja?I seriously thought your post yesterday at 8:57 was in a joking mood or sarcasm. And therefore my reply was. I don't actually think they lose to no one or that they're the best. The problem is marcina is a strong fundamentals character, so when they are better than their opponent, they will win because everything they were designed to do just works. Coincidentally, they suck just as much at winning in the opposite situation. But MU charts assume two players are at the same skill level.
I would need to sit down with the full list of characters before I can tell you my opinion of what the losing MUs are.
But for now, try Greninja. And take my advice on picking up Marcina. You probably aren't good at fighting them and playing as them will solve that.
Umm... low profile, dash attack, dtilt, uair juggles, water edge guards, projectile spam, smash attack whiff punishesGreninja's really hard to play uh you got any advice for a day one greninja?
But WaaaaaadiUmm... low profile, dash attack, dtilt, uair juggles, water edge guards, projectile spam, smash attack whiff punishes
But it says right there that you're a ROB main. ROB does very well in this MU. If have a lot invested in ROB and you're getting good with him, stick with it.
Problem is with Rob, or at least my rob, is that once they're in, he's so big that you can barely shake them off. because he's so big. How might Olimar go cause I'm considering using Olimar a lot more and I want to know how he does.MU charts should be taken with a small grain of salt for a few reasons. One, they are usually based on what the characters are capable of at top level play so those matchups don't always play out that way online or amongst friends. Two, they are that person's impression of how those matchups play out. Now, you should give them more weight than other opinions since top players are more knowledgeable than everyone else (myself included). But you should also keep in mind that they can be wrong.*cough*Esampikachubias*cough*
Now then, two ways of playing that give Marcina trouble are good zoning and speedy bait + punish. Zoning characters make Marcina's feel like they have to approach and because of that, they can let their movements be manipulated if they're not careful (or just don't know how to avoid it). For instance, if you are Richter and you throw the cross most people just jump over it. If you know that your opponent will jump you can either intercept them with jump fair, throw an ax, use holy water to set up a secondary obstacle, or dash back and Ftilt when they land. The point is that using projectiles is not necessarily about hitting your opponent with the projectiles, it's about forcing them into situations that limit their options and give you the advantage. Marcinas fall prey to this if they're not careful because their movement isn't fox or Pichu oppressive, and they don't have any other zone-breaking tools (like, say a reflector). The Links are good at this as well because, like the Belmonts, they can throw two or three projectiles at a time and put Marcina in tough positions when they try to avoid them.
Bait and punish works well but only if you are playing a character that has better mobility than Marcina. Marcina has great movement in general but it isn't without weaknesses. Their run speed is slightly above average and their airspeed, in general, is very poor. Their best movement asset is their great dash dance but there are characters that have better ones. Marcina's moves, while quick, have quite a bit of recovery and they don't last very long. This means that rushdown characters can use their better mobility to force out laggy commitments (like dancing blade and Fsmash) and weave in to punish them. Zero Suit, Fox, Inkling, and Pichu are some (though not all) of the characters that can use this strategy. All of those characters also do much more damage than Marcina can so they can make a careless sword swing really hurt. The downside is that all of these characters have pretty bad range so you do have to deal with that.
I think Rob is a pretty good pick tbh. Marcina can definitely do that matchup, but Rob has ways to make them very uncomfortable because of his projectiles. Marcina wants to hover just outside of their opponent's range and swipe at him or her for trying to approach with Marcina's big hitboxes. Gyro makes them more defensive at midrange and beam makes them defensive at long range. A good rob uses both of those to keep Marcina on their back foot. They are also great tools for edgeguarding when you send Marcina far out. Under 60 or 70 percent most of the time people don't get launched very far and Marcina can mixup and avoid obstacles when they recover. But after ~80 if they get launched far enough they have to drift close to the ledge since their up special only goes up and you can snipe them with a well timed gyro or beam. One thing about Rob though is that if you don't mixup your recovery you get edgeguarded fairly easily, and he can get juggled pretty hard as well.
One last thing is that like Viper said, Marcina is a very fundamentals based character. They don't have huge glaring weaknesses but they also don't have really broken strengths anymore. They don't have huge damaging punishes or great kill combos (well they have a couple but I haven't seen many use them, myself included). It's important to keep calm if you're getting hit because you can always turn things around. I know this is a pretty long post but I hope this helps. Also, this post might read kind of strangely because I keep referring to Marth and Lucina together and I noticed that I keep switching between using plural and singular words when discussing their actions. -_-'