MERPIS
Smash Lord
Hello, I main wolf and Wario/ROB and I always get decimated by a good marth/lucina in tournaments. Can anyone recommend a good secondary to pick up? I used to use Olimar but I dont think he wins that
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Good counters to marcina?
- Thread starter MERPIS
- Start date
As for the secondaries you want to look into, K Rool and Richter would be good. They hit hard, and can easily outrange marth/lucina, which is likely what you are having trouble with in marth/lucina matachups (outranged). As well, K Rool is just a very good character in general which makes him viable against majority of characters. However, looking at your mains, you might want to go for olimar for marth/lucina match ups, as he can also outrange, but you are already comfortable with him. This all pretty much goes for all swordies
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Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Play Ike. He's easy to pick up and he destroys Marcina unless your opponent is better than you.
Other easy to pick-up characters that will do well for your needs include Bowser, Greninja, and Inkling.
I would say Shulk, but he isn't easy to use well.
Other easy to pick-up characters that will do well for your needs include Bowser, Greninja, and Inkling.
I would say Shulk, but he isn't easy to use well.
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MERPIS
Smash Lord
Wait bowser actually still beats them? How about DK
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I don't know about DK as I haven't played (or lost to) enough good ones, but it seems just as easy to beat him in neutral as in Smash 4. But in a set in the last tournament I went to, after beating the person's Pokémon Trainer, I lost to his Bowser. But it was the way I lost that really shook me.
I couldn't get off the edge, first of all. Thanks to the heavily improved fire breath that is more effective against us than Charizard's now. Other than fire, the rest of his Ultimate tool kit stuffs all of our offensive options at the ledge (so it comes to reading our defensive ones). On stage, it isn't as easy as catching his jumps and juggling him anymore. Bowser saw the biggest fall speed increase and the biggest jumpsquat reductions out of the cast. Without that, we have a quick-moving, heavy character that out-ranges us far more than the other heavies and now has armor on the start-up of most of his A moves.
It isn't as impossible as I made it sound, but I do think Marth loses to Bowser, yes.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
So I decided to go with ike, as I used to use him a lot and I figured he’d just do well in other matchups I find bad as well, but why does ike beat the marths? Arent they too fast for him?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Ike beats all the fast characters right now, but even so, Marth and Lucina aren't fast.
Anyway, in Smash 4, Marth had an issue with Ike's Fair and Nair. Despite being a better character in so many ways, the matchup was around even (even if you thought Marth won, this doesn't change the situation in Ultimate). Marth doesn't like really good, long-reach moves that play his game better than him.
In Ultimate, Ike adeptly gets in the air and lands without much worry. Yet Nair is a trillion times better than it was, having more range thanks to his arm extending all the way (in the animation) and for combo-ing forever into his new Uair. Not having special tools to be able to deal with it like some characters (projectiles, broken specials, etc.), Marth is more likely to get hit in neutral than Ike is And when he does, Ike's gets more mileage out of his hits than Marth can. Furthermore, Ike kills earlier – not because he's stronger – but because he has more reliable kill confirms.
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FartyParty
Smash Journeyman
I disagree with Vipermoon about Bowser being a bad matchup, at least with Lucina. All the heavies are fairly easy for me if the skill-level is balanced. They can't handle Lucina's aerials. You don't have to juggle necessarily. But I find all the heavies fairly easy for Lucina to knock offstage, relying mainly on aerials, and then edgeguard. The only problem I have against them is the fact that any mistake I make could lead to a lost stock, even at low %.
Ike is definitely a bad matchup for both Marth and Lucina though. Really any of the swords with longer reach - Ike, Cloud, and Shulk. One way I've found to counter Ike's air game is staying crouched and throwing uptilt from there. Getting lower to the ground throws off the timing of Ike's aerials for a lot of players. I've also found Ike is easy to punish out of shield with sh nair.
Ike is definitely a bad matchup for both Marth and Lucina though. Really any of the swords with longer reach - Ike, Cloud, and Shulk. One way I've found to counter Ike's air game is staying crouched and throwing uptilt from there. Getting lower to the ground throws off the timing of Ike's aerials for a lot of players. I've also found Ike is easy to punish out of shield with sh nair.
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MERPIS
Smash Lord
They couldnt handle her aerials in smash 4 yet the majority of heavies (literally just bowser and DK) still won the matchup and in smash ultimate theyre even faster and stronger now
FartyParty
Smash Journeyman
Well I don't know what to say because I'm not even all that good, a bit above average but nothing more, and I have no trouble against any of the heavies except Ridley, who still isn't much of a problem. It takes a far superior opponent for me to lose against a heavy, and while it's technically, maybe possible that I've devised a brand new, superior strategy against heavies that's never occurred to other Lucina mains, I highly doubt that to be the case.
I dunno. Maybe the official character stats and move damage and frame data support the idea that heavies are a good counter to Lucina, but my gameplay experience has not lined up with that.
TeamChevy86
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2019
- Messages
- 16
I'll back you up here, I main Bowser and Marth/Lucina and Chrom are by far the hardest match ups for me. All swordies give me trouble but Marth and Lucina have exceptional aerial attacks and edge guarding against heavies. Maybe it's our massive hurtbox, I dunno but I seem to lose a lot of exhanges and get rushed down too quickly. I've been at 2.8 - 3.1mil GSP with Bowser for about two weeks, and I lose probably %80 of matches against the better sword players
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MERPIS
Smash Lord
Yaaa...Turns out I lied, biggs DEFINITELY can't keep up with them, in 4 they won because of their grabs beating out every move they had and their landing lag was easy for biggs to keep up, and we just removed both of those things. DK might be good, maybe even but the others outside of possibly k rool is just dead meat. So now I need a better character, I've been thinking cloud but cloud feels really awkward to play in this engine..
FartyParty
Smash Journeyman
I went back to your original post, and I see you said you main Wolf, Wario, and Rob. If it matters any, I actually find Wolf and Rob to be a really tough matchup against me with Lucina. Wolf might just be individually difficult for me b/c I have trouble tracking his movement. Rob definitely has matchup advantage over Lucina though. You should work on him.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
May I ask how? You just kinda outrange all of my advances with stuff and since I'm a half bigg I can't really avoid stuff like that.
Flowen231
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2015
- Messages
- 193
You shouldn't be advancing as rob vs marcina. Your greatest strength is your projectiles and then zone breaking once they close the gap. Once you condition them to shield start grabbing. I couldn't say whether rob counters them tbh lol, I don't think we're far enough into the game to make those presumptions.
This may be some prehistoric advice, but I'd suggest saving replays of games vs marcina, think about how they managed to hit you, what you could do to stop or counter them the times that they get in. At this point in the game a marth main can't really tell a rob main how they could be playing because atm we're expanding our own knowledge. Vague hints is all we can really offer because we're in that same experimental phase.
This may be some prehistoric advice, but I'd suggest saving replays of games vs marcina, think about how they managed to hit you, what you could do to stop or counter them the times that they get in. At this point in the game a marth main can't really tell a rob main how they could be playing because atm we're expanding our own knowledge. Vague hints is all we can really offer because we're in that same experimental phase.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
Might K rool be good against them?
MERPIS
Smash Lord
They definitely arent playing the matchup right
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
fwiw... several people in here listing Ike, but MKLeo lists Marcina among Ike's worst matchups.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
lol mkleo opinion
D
Deleted member
Guest
the dude won ****ing genesis using ike and lucina lmao
i don't think it's a good idea to just throw his opinion out like that
Downshift
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 16, 2008
- Messages
- 325
Projectile spam is what I have the most trouble with as Lucina, so I second the Simon/Richter suggestion. She doesn't fall fast enough to be able to thread the needle between all the spam to really get in on him consistently, and Simon outranges her in the air as well. Axe also shuts down the Nair and Fair approaches.
I agree with that but in order to beat Ike with Marcina you really have to have your parries down. His Nair is difficult to punish without a parry when it is well spaced. If you don't have a good way to deal with that move you can get steamrolled pretty quickly since he outranges Marcina, racks up damage easily, and kills so well.
That being said I find Ike to be one of the easier characters to parry since his aerials are easily telegraphed. Also, 9/10 times he does his aerials at the peak of his jump (SH and FH) so it is easy to be mentally ready to parry. Once you mess up his gameplan he has to rely on Dtilts and dash dancing or tomahawks to get openings and all of those options are subpar at best since he's so slow. Also, Marcina are great at edgeguarding and juggling but I think everyone here knows that.
TL;DR I think Marcina does win the matchup (+1 IMO) but you really have to know what you're doing or you'll get destroyed.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
Good god according to Leo ike loses and according to Wadi ROB loses too
Does ANYONE in this game beat these characters?
Does ANYONE in this game beat these characters?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Nope. According to every top player's MU charts so far, Marcina (actually, Lucina) lose to no one and therefore must be the best character in the game.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
Nerf pls
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Don't worry, it isn't true my dude.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
Ok but does ANYONE have an advantageous matchup against lucina
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I seriously thought your post yesterday at 8:57 was in a joking mood or sarcasm. And therefore my reply was. I don't actually think they lose to no one or that they're the best. The problem is marcina is a strong fundamentals character, so when they are better than their opponent, they will win because everything they were designed to do just works. Coincidentally, they suck just as much at winning in the opposite situation. But MU charts assume two players are at the same skill level.
I would need to sit down with the full list of characters before I can tell you my opinion of what the losing MUs are.
But for now, try Greninja. And take my advice on picking up Marcina. You probably aren't good at fighting them and playing as them will solve that.
MERPIS
Smash Lord
Greninja's really hard to play uh you got any advice for a day one greninja?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Umm... low profile, dash attack, dtilt, uair juggles, water edge guards, projectile spam, smash attack whiff punishes
But it says right there that you're a ROB main. ROB does very well in this MU. If have a lot invested in ROB and you're getting good with him, stick with it.
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MERPIS
Smash Lord
But Waaaaaadi
Also doesn't Olimar body lucina and marth??
FartyParty
Smash Journeyman
MERPIS
You may want to check out my thread Fellow Lucina mains, what characters give you the most trouble to beat?
Got Marcina players in there discussing which matchups given them the most trouble. Might give you ideas.
After much consideration, I would have to say Simon/Richter are the worst matchup for Marcina because they outrange Marcina with both their projectiles AND their melee attacks. The key is that Simon/Richter only win the matchup if the player is sufficiently skilled with their tilts, aerials, jab, and dash attack.
MU charts should be taken with a small grain of salt for a few reasons. One, they are usually based on what the characters are capable of at top level play so those matchups don't always play out that way online or amongst friends. Two, they are that person's impression of how those matchups play out. Now, you should give them more weight than other opinions since top players are more knowledgeable than everyone else (myself included). But you should also keep in mind that they can be wrong.*cough*Esampikachubias*cough*
Now then, two ways of playing that give Marcina trouble are good zoning and speedy bait + punish. Zoning characters make Marcina's feel like they have to approach and because of that, they can let their movements be manipulated if they're not careful (or just don't know how to avoid it). For instance, if you are Richter and you throw the cross most people just jump over it. If you know that your opponent will jump you can either intercept them with jump fair, throw an ax, use holy water to set up a secondary obstacle, or dash back and Ftilt when they land. The point is that using projectiles is not necessarily about hitting your opponent with the projectiles, it's about forcing them into situations that limit their options and give you the advantage. Marcinas fall prey to this if they're not careful because their movement isn't fox or Pichu oppressive, and they don't have any other zone-breaking tools (like, say a reflector). The Links are good at this as well because, like the Belmonts, they can throw two or three projectiles at a time and put Marcina in tough positions when they try to avoid them.
Bait and punish works well but only if you are playing a character that has better mobility than Marcina. Marcina has great movement in general but it isn't without weaknesses. Their run speed is slightly above average and their airspeed, in general, is very poor. Their best movement asset is their great dash dance but there are characters that have better ones. Marcina's moves, while quick, have quite a bit of recovery and they don't last very long. This means that rushdown characters can use their better mobility to force out laggy commitments (like dancing blade and Fsmash) and weave in to punish them. Zero Suit, Fox, Inkling, and Pichu are some (though not all) of the characters that can use this strategy. All of those characters also do much more damage than Marcina can so they can make a careless sword swing really hurt. The downside is that all of these characters have pretty bad range so you do have to deal with that.
I think Rob is a pretty good pick tbh. Marcina can definitely do that matchup, but Rob has ways to make them very uncomfortable because of his projectiles. Marcina wants to hover just outside of their opponent's range and swipe at him or her for trying to approach with Marcina's big hitboxes. Gyro makes them more defensive at midrange and beam makes them defensive at long range. A good rob uses both of those to keep Marcina on their back foot. They are also great tools for edgeguarding when you send Marcina far out. Under 60 or 70 percent most of the time people don't get launched very far and Marcina can mixup and avoid obstacles when they recover. But after ~80 if they get launched far enough they have to drift close to the ledge since their up special only goes up and you can snipe them with a well timed gyro or beam. One thing about Rob though is that if you don't mixup your recovery you get edgeguarded fairly easily, and he can get juggled pretty hard as well.
One last thing is that like Viper said, Marcina is a very fundamentals based character. They don't have huge glaring weaknesses but they also don't have really broken strengths anymore. They don't have huge damaging punishes or great kill combos (well they have a couple but I haven't seen many use them, myself included). It's important to keep calm if you're getting hit because you can always turn things around. I know this is a pretty long post but I hope this helps. Also, this post might read kind of strangely because I keep referring to Marth and Lucina together and I noticed that I keep switching between using plural and singular words when discussing their actions. -_-'
Now then, two ways of playing that give Marcina trouble are good zoning and speedy bait + punish. Zoning characters make Marcina's feel like they have to approach and because of that, they can let their movements be manipulated if they're not careful (or just don't know how to avoid it). For instance, if you are Richter and you throw the cross most people just jump over it. If you know that your opponent will jump you can either intercept them with jump fair, throw an ax, use holy water to set up a secondary obstacle, or dash back and Ftilt when they land. The point is that using projectiles is not necessarily about hitting your opponent with the projectiles, it's about forcing them into situations that limit their options and give you the advantage. Marcinas fall prey to this if they're not careful because their movement isn't fox or Pichu oppressive, and they don't have any other zone-breaking tools (like, say a reflector). The Links are good at this as well because, like the Belmonts, they can throw two or three projectiles at a time and put Marcina in tough positions when they try to avoid them.
Bait and punish works well but only if you are playing a character that has better mobility than Marcina. Marcina has great movement in general but it isn't without weaknesses. Their run speed is slightly above average and their airspeed, in general, is very poor. Their best movement asset is their great dash dance but there are characters that have better ones. Marcina's moves, while quick, have quite a bit of recovery and they don't last very long. This means that rushdown characters can use their better mobility to force out laggy commitments (like dancing blade and Fsmash) and weave in to punish them. Zero Suit, Fox, Inkling, and Pichu are some (though not all) of the characters that can use this strategy. All of those characters also do much more damage than Marcina can so they can make a careless sword swing really hurt. The downside is that all of these characters have pretty bad range so you do have to deal with that.
I think Rob is a pretty good pick tbh. Marcina can definitely do that matchup, but Rob has ways to make them very uncomfortable because of his projectiles. Marcina wants to hover just outside of their opponent's range and swipe at him or her for trying to approach with Marcina's big hitboxes. Gyro makes them more defensive at midrange and beam makes them defensive at long range. A good rob uses both of those to keep Marcina on their back foot. They are also great tools for edgeguarding when you send Marcina far out. Under 60 or 70 percent most of the time people don't get launched very far and Marcina can mixup and avoid obstacles when they recover. But after ~80 if they get launched far enough they have to drift close to the ledge since their up special only goes up and you can snipe them with a well timed gyro or beam. One thing about Rob though is that if you don't mixup your recovery you get edgeguarded fairly easily, and he can get juggled pretty hard as well.
One last thing is that like Viper said, Marcina is a very fundamentals based character. They don't have huge glaring weaknesses but they also don't have really broken strengths anymore. They don't have huge damaging punishes or great kill combos (well they have a couple but I haven't seen many use them, myself included). It's important to keep calm if you're getting hit because you can always turn things around. I know this is a pretty long post but I hope this helps. Also, this post might read kind of strangely because I keep referring to Marth and Lucina together and I noticed that I keep switching between using plural and singular words when discussing their actions. -_-'
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MERPIS
Smash Lord
Problem is with Rob, or at least my rob, is that once they're in, he's so big that you can barely shake them off. because he's so big. How might Olimar go cause I'm considering using Olimar a lot more and I want to know how he does.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
ROB's has Nair and his B-reverses, so if you use these well, I wouldn't worry too much about getting juggled.
Olimar can do really well against most Marcina's, however Olimar doesn't actually win. In the following video, you see a Lucina and Olimar that play each other ALL THE TIME in the Michigan scene (even in Smash 4 with Marth vs. Olimar). And Goma (the Olimar player) gets better results usually. But as you can see, Dylster took this one. As you're watching it, think about why certain situations happen and you can tell Olimar doesn't win the MU. But like I said, he does great when it's not this situation (vs. a Marcina player that knows you and your character well).
Olimar can do really well against most Marcina's, however Olimar doesn't actually win. In the following video, you see a Lucina and Olimar that play each other ALL THE TIME in the Michigan scene (even in Smash 4 with Marth vs. Olimar). And Goma (the Olimar player) gets better results usually. But as you can see, Dylster took this one. As you're watching it, think about why certain situations happen and you can tell Olimar doesn't win the MU. But like I said, he does great when it's not this situation (vs. a Marcina player that knows you and your character well).
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