• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

God or Big Bang/Evolution: Where do we Come From?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
awesomestnerd said:
For the last time, God is all around us, he is evident in nature, how can you not see that there is a god?
Your talking to a guy that can see souls and demons . . .

Okay...! I look around. I see, well, no demons but I see my brother's soul, his puny soul, I see countless atoms that form all the stuff in my room, I see the particals of light that form my laptop screen and TV. What I don't see is God! How can I not see him you ask! Its either he's not real, he's really a long living mortal but divine being (you know them as Angels, I know them Mystics, but they are mortal...they just live for hundreds of billions of decades) who is very strong and powerful but didn't create anything but laws and can only be in one spot at a time, or is real but can only be in one place at a time but only created laws that we have to abide by but aren't scientific and are only ment to guide us the right was, some of them.

I'd hate to say this but most of the people of this world are blinded by religion from the day you were born. Now, I'm going to tell you a story (the story was the main inspiration for the Matrix). "A man is walking through a forest and stumbles into a deep, deep. What he sees and learns from this cave frightened him. People were chained up in the cave around (and facing away) from a wall with a huge fire in the middle of it. In between the wall and the fire were symbols that looked like people and animals. The chained up people were forced to look at them but look as though it were normal for them. The man goes up to ask them why they are there and a woman response, "this is life and always will be life!" The chained up people believed that this is the world because they were all born their, never seeing anything but the figurines' shadows and assumed it was real. They also argued with the man that this was real and nothing more existed. It was as though they were brainwashed from birth, thinking this stuff is real and actually explaining how it is real and how what the outsider spoke of is utter nonsence. There were some people thst wanted to see this true world the outsider spoke of" This is all that needs to be told about the story to prove my point. My point is that the only reason you believe that God is everywhere and that you put so much faith into the Bible is because you were brainwashed from birth into thinking its real and since you've put too much faith into it, you can't argue against it or stray away from it to learn the real truth, a truth that has been proven many times before, even infront of your very eyes but you are one of those chained people in the cave, you are one of those people trapped inside the Matrix. A false but beautiful world is covered over your eyes to hide you from the truth. Religion is a lie! Its a Lie. A lie from thousands of years ago from people who didn't have the proof we do now to proof that evolution, the Big Bang, the rubberband theory, the atom, the orbits, the universe, physics, matter's laws, etc. are real! Religion is the wool that covers your eyes that hides you from the Truths, even the unknown truths. Just because religion makes "perfect" sense doesn't mean that its real. You've been hearing all of this nonsense for so long, it has to make sense but the truth is, its not real. I would know to be perfectly honest but I refuse to give details on how else I know but a being that sees spiritual things does infact know. Souls, angels and demons I know are real...I've seen them, lived with them, laughed with them, cried with them, fought with them, etc.
Religion is a lie! No religion is the truth, but the religion of the divine (Mystics...they know your God and many other gods personally...they are all Mystics themselves)!
 

8000

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
1,458
Location
Canada eh!
Master Fox said:
"A man is walking through a forest and stumbles into a deep, deep. What he sees and learns from this cave frightened him. People were chained up in the cave around (and facing away) from a wall with a huge fire in the middle of it. In between the wall and the fire were symbols that looked like people and animals. The chained up people were forced to look at them but look as though it were normal for them. The man goes up to ask them why they are there and a woman response, "this is life and always will be life!" The chained up people believed that this is the world because they were all born their, never seeing anything but the figurines' shadows and assumed it was real. They also argued with the man that this was real and nothing more existed. It was as though they were brainwashed from birth, thinking this stuff is real and actually explaining how it is real and how what the outsider spoke of is utter nonsence. There were some people thst wanted to see this true world the outsider spoke of" This is all that needs to be told about the story to prove my point. My point is that the only reason you believe that God is everywhere and that you put so much faith into the Bible is because you were brainwashed from birth into thinking its real and since you've put too much faith into it, you can't argue against it or stray away from it to learn the real truth, a truth that has been proven many times before, even infront of your very eyes but you are one of those chained people in the cave, you are one of those people trapped inside the Matrix. A false but beautiful world is covered over your eyes to hide you from the truth.
Another way to define this is propaganda, being told/brainwashed at a small age until you believe strongly that this one "truth" is right and that everything else is wrong. This is exactly why religion is hypocritical, i have mentioned this before i believe.

What would you believe in if you weren't told since birth that there was a God. A God who created everything that we are. That there is no other explination, you have to discover the truth on your on because most parents are too narrow minded or too religious to think outside the box.
 

Deus Ex Machina

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
20
awesomestnerd said:
No, unfortunately evolution doesn't agree with creation. Creation says the world was created in 6 days and each day something different was made. Evolution says that there was an explosion of life and it took millions of years to develop into what we have today.

You say that there is a bunch of scientific info on why evolution is evident, yet I keep coming up with information on why creation is evident, then you come back and say I am a silly boy and man made up God.

For the last time, God is all around us, he is evident in nature, how can you not see that there is a god?
Also, lets stop asking those same two questions over and over.

Creation does require faith, just as evolutionism requires faith. You have faith in everything, like the chair you are sitting on. You have faith that the person who built it was competent and it won't break while you are sitting on it.

Basically what I'm saying with my position on deformities is that they could never exist in a perfect world. The world was perfect until the Fall, and then after the Fall sin started setting in, like a poisonous cloud of gas. The poison took a while to spread, as it spread from one point. After everything spread, it only started taking effect so it was slow to come into action. By then, the earth had already been populated and had been spread out pretty far, so people lived for a long time and deformities didn't happen. Then it started to kick in and people started living for less time (there were enough people so nobody was too closely related).

You interpret scientific evidence as evolution and randomness, I interpret it as creation and design. The Bible concurs with my interpretation and the pieces fall into place.
Quite the contrary, evolutionism is formed on the basis that everything has happened for a reason. And I believe firmly that Creationism is more random due to its nature of a capricious God randomly coming up with this insane concept of life just for the he** of it.

There is also a difference between justified faith and blind faith. One has mental assurance and some degree of epistemic evidence while the other is an irrational intuitive function for the body, usually instinctual. The flaw in God is all around us flawed in itself. Because in order to have a perfect and omniscient, omnipotent being, it must be detached in an arbitrary manner. If he is not, then he his tainted by his own impurities and renders him not so perfect after all. God must be devoid of flawed human concepts such as love in order to achieve the standards of perfect by society.

Why would God even create life? (randomness) Why would he create them in his reflection? (vanity) Why would he create them with flawed attributes and sin so we can hurt each other and be hurt? (sadism) Why would he strike down upon those who oppose him? (vengeful) The characteristics of an imperfect being. There's so much discrepancy and ambiguity regarding most faith that I find it appalling that people still unconditionally and irrationally deal with it.

Sure you can provide a slipshod explanation for some holes in the Bible, but there are just too many problems. I believe it's already been mentioned and addressed in this post previously, but the lack of mentioning of the dinosaurs is something that cannot be rectified. The fact is, the Bible is not a credible book, and the entire Christian faith is founded around that discredited book. Quotes from Bible stories are not evidence and will never be evidence. Therefore, Christianity has no evidence whatsoever. No support, no argument. Game Over.

To Master Fox: Your story seems more like allegory of The Cave, rather than The Matrix.
 

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
The story I spoke of was The Cave which was one of the main inspirations for The Matrix although The Cave does fit the discription even better than the Matrix does anyway.

And no, you weren't supposed to see that text...oh well! Just had to type it...feel free to take a look at my beliefs if you feel like it.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9
True True Crimson King. By the way, King Crimson is like god. Not the best word for this debate, but I can't lie.

I agree that my post didn't have much to do with the topic of creationism vs. evolution, and I wasn't actually trying to debate the sides yet, I was pointing out that it's like a stupid phase. Thats's it. Now as it goes with religion, I don't really believe in either. How can some all-powerful thing exist before time? It's time, and in my mind, will never begin or end. What could create something that powerful. Time controls everything, from the ages of empires, to the movement of planets, when we will die, everything. I think that time has always existed, and the universe probably has as well. Now something creating that as well is far-fetched to come from a book.
So, I think we will never know exactly where we came from, if there is a creator, what happens after death. All of these have been questioned over and over, and every empire brings their own beliefs.
It's all a guessing game, but it is a fascinating subject, that's why I returned
 

8000

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
1,458
Location
Canada eh!
Depending On The Independant said:
True True Crimson King. By the way, King Crimson is like god. Not the best word for this debate, but I can't lie.

I agree that my post didn't have much to do with the topic of creationism vs. evolution, and I wasn't actually trying to debate the sides yet, I was pointing out that it's like a stupid phase. Thats's it. Now as it goes with religion, I don't really believe in either. How can some all-powerful thing exist before time? It's time, and in my mind, will never begin or end. What could create something that powerful. Time controls everything, from the ages of empires, to the movement of planets, when we will die, everything. I think that time has always existed, and the universe probably has as well. Now something creating that as well is far-fetched to come from a book.
So, I think we will never know exactly where we came from, if there is a creator, what happens after death. All of these have been questioned over and over, and every empire brings their own beliefs.
It's all a guessing game, but it is a fascinating subject, that's why I returned
Firstly don't suck up to the Moderators.

Second how is religion just some sort of phase. If you're talking about Wiccism, Mormanism or whatever you are talking about be specific. You have to realize that a lot of people believe very strongly in their religion, to some, it is their life. It is unfair to them to say that it is just a phase.

Please read all of the other posts carefully because what you are "arguing" about has already been mentioned before and just bringing back old arguements without any new information or evidence is a waste of all of our time because we have to read it.

You're not affiliated with me.
 

awesomestnerd

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
56
Location
Yes
I'm tired of mentioning the same things over and over. Here we go again:
The Bible does mention dinosaurs. It mentions the leviathon and another dinosaur which I can't remember the name of right now. Dinosaurs were on the ark (two by two), but apparently didn't last through the ice age.

The cave thing is a very interesting story, and it can be true. People who don't know about outside experiences believe that what they are living is all life is.
I admit it, I was raised as a Christian since a child. But I am an exceptionally intelligent young man ( I'm not boasting I'm just stating) and have looked at the world and researched many things and have come to the conclusion that intelligent design is the answer.
When my mom was roughly 27, she didn't believe in God either. She had been raised as Catholic but didn't feel anything or believe in it. Then one day she just saw that there must be a god and started researching it. She came across Christianity, was baptized, and has been faithful in it ever since.
But speaking of the cave, couldn't I say the same thing about you and say that you WEREN'T born a Christian and have been tought to believe in evolution, so you only believe in what you have been tought. It is really kind of a wish-washy statement.

God created time, and then the universe started. It's not really random, if God didn't create the universe, what else would he do? God created us in his image because he wanted the main creatures of the universe to be like him, perfect and holy ( would he create sinful pitiful creatures?). God didn't create us as sinful, we did that on our own (the Fall). God punishes those who have misused their lives and who have been evil and turned their backs away from their creator. I don't have to use the Bible to prove the universe, I can just simply prove that it isn't random and we were created by something greater than ourselves.

God is omnicient, knows everything and everyone. Its english class all over again!!!
He can see what we are doing because he made the universe and knows everything about us.

Eric, you can say that man created God, but that personally can't fit into what I believe because I believe in intelligent design and there has to be a god for that. I think Christianity makes the most sense, but you probably have a different opinion. Good luck in discovering the world and setting up your beliefs.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9
8000 said:
Firstly don't suck up to the Moderators.

Second how is religion just some sort of phase. If you're talking about Wiccism, Mormanism or whatever you are talking about be specific. You have to realize that a lot of people believe very strongly in their religion, to some, it is their life. It is unfair to them to say that it is just a phase.

Please read all of the other posts carefully because what you are "arguing" about has already been mentioned before and just bringing back old arguements without any new information or evidence is a waste of all of our time because we have to read it.

You're not affiliated with me.
Firstly, read my post, I spoke about teenagers. How they go through different "underground religions". I said that its like an underground mainstream where everyone has to be interested in politics and religion, be against corporate authority. I've only seen some posts on after death thoughts that seemed to link with what I say, and I mentioned it once and closed the topic. Instead of jumping at the bit, think about your reply for more than five minutes.

Onto our topic. Religious books were at one point law, and now are considered just stories to help with faith, as there answers are being proven wrong. They can also be translated poorly, like the english translation of the Old Testament. Lucifer is mention once in the entire Testament, by Isaiah 14-12-15. The original text was in hebrew, yet lucifer is in latin and means morning star or bringer of light. That was translatted poorly into english, and clashes strongly with mormon beliefs even more than normal christians. Most now consider it a medaphor of fallen babylonian prince, and can be explained in great detail here. http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

it should be noted that I think the thought of something creating us is much more peaceful, I'm human, I don't wnat to die. But I don't know what I don't know, so I'm gunna use life properly, and that should be a moral that both sides should agree on.
 

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
awesomestnerd said:
But speaking of the cave, couldn't I say the same thing about you and say that you WEREN'T born a Christian and have been tought to believe in evolution, so you only believe in what you have been tought. It is really kind of a wish-washy statement.
BWAHAHAHA!!!! Your right that I'm not Christian nor born to believe in Jesus...I have to give you that but I wasn't raised to believe in evolution either. I was born, brought up with another religion but I learned the truth about everything. I denounce my religion for science and for the greater truths! I found a better religion, unknown to people. I discovered this "religion" (I'm going to start calling it a civilization) through my head. I'll explain...one day, a year after I discovered this forum (I've been here since the beginning, even before some of the moderators though I have a small post count due to the fact that ...nvm...offtopic anyway...), I began getting floods of memories to rush through my head. At first, I thought they were part of my imagination but then too much filled in the spaces. A man that appear in these memories I actually came face to face with him one day and he tried to destroy me and I was able to fight him off with strange powers (I'd give anything for those powers but my soul and this girl I'm inlove with). I was 13 at the time. Then more flood of memories came in and I found out his Identity...and he wasn't human. His species I will not reveal but his name was King Daborodorf (I'm not making this up). I'm now conviced these are memories and I'm still recieving more and more of these memories. I now know where humans truly came from (Mars...and they had extreme technology), my previous life's name (Algeta Talon), my previous life's brothers full identity (his name is Komedrama Turelumk...he is your God and he is still alive), the troubles Algeta went through in his life (losing his wife's life to humans, losing his daughter...my wife and my daughter), How I died and where I died (to a Demon God over Earth...there are 4 in all...2 are dead, 1 is trapped within my soul (the one that killed me) and one is in full hibernation), the location oh heaven and hell (actually on a planet called Eden), that evolution is true and creation is BS, Satan and Lucifer are actually 2 different beings (Lucifer is the hybrid (in this case, 1/2 Angel, 1/2 Devil) son of the Satan Devil), Lucifer rules hell and makes sure bad souls get treated, Satan has literally gone missing 200 years ago, etc., etc., etc. I've given you too much information already. (my only proof are others of Mystic past and my soul...BTW, its not God you see all around you, its me but I am not all knowing and all powerful...I just have a freakishly planet-sized soul I've been told many times by people claiming to see souls! Funny that they actually see these memories I have just from digging into my soul's memories).

Oh, and Dinosaurs and humans never co-existed together...63 million year gap between Dinosaurs death to Humans appearing on Earth. The great flood never happened, Jesus isn't the mesiah nor is he the son of God (Komedrama never had kids), etc.

Now I'm pissed that I actually typed this! Humans aren't supposed to know about this...
...
...
...
...Back on topic now!
 

Zook

Perpetual Lazy Bum
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
5,178
Location
Stamping your library books.
awesomestnerd said:
I'm tired of mentioning the same things over and over. Here we go again:
The Bible does mention dinosaurs. It mentions the leviathon and another dinosaur which I can't remember the name of right now. Dinosaurs were on the ark (two by two), but apparently didn't last through the ice age.
The cave thing is a very interesting story, and it can be true. People who don't know about outside experiences believe that what they are living is all life is.
I admit it, I was raised as a Christian since a child. But I am an exceptionally intelligent young man ( I'm not boasting I'm just stating) and have looked at the world and researched many things and have come to the conclusion that intelligent design is the answer.
When my mom was roughly 27, she didn't believe in God either. 1)Then one day she just saw that there must be a god and started researching it. She had been raised as Catholic but didn't feel anything or believe in it. She came across Christianity, was baptized, and has been faithful in it ever since.
But speaking of the cave, couldn't I say the same thing about you and say that you WEREN'T born a Christian and have been tought to believe in evolution, so you only believe in what you have been tought. It is really kind of a wish-washy statement.
2)God created time, and then the universe started. It's not really random, if God didn't create the universe, what else would he do? 3)God created us in his image because he wanted the main creatures of the universe to be like him, perfect and holy ( would he create sinful pitiful creatures?). 4)God didn't create us as sinful, we did that on our own (the Fall). God punishes those who have misused their lives and who have been evil and turned their backs away from their creator. 5)I don't have to use the Bible to prove the universe, I can just simply prove that it isn't random and we were created by something greater than ourselves.
God is omnicient, knows everything and everyone. Its english class all over again!!!
He can see what we are doing because he made the universe and knows everything about us.
Eric, you can say that man created God, but that personally can't fit into what I believe because I believe in intelligent design and there has to be a god for that. I think Christianity makes the most sense, but you probably have a different opinion. Good luck in discovering the world and setting up your beliefs.
1) Why did she "just relize there must be a god?" You give no info to back up your theories. Which is why no one has joined you.
2) Firs off, there is no such thing as time. The theory of time was just created by humans to measure different events in our history. Secound, you act as if there must be a god without slightest doubt. Try acting from my point of view every once in a while.
3) We are not perfect and holy in the slightest. We enjoy having sex, even though it is a 'horrible sin,' we enjoy violence, we have wars, and some of us are satanists, who worship the devil.
4) Yes, he did. If he created us. See #3.
5) You proved nothing, exept that you belive in god and you supposedly 'prove the existantce of god' by stating random 'facts' and not giving any evidence to them.
 

Gamer4Fire

PyroGamer
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
4,854
Location
U.S.A.
Is the bible real? Of course it is, I'm holding one now. But is the bible scientifically accurate? We all know its true, it talks about everything including dinosaurs.

Job 41:1 - Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:9 - Any hope of subduing [leviathan] is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
Job 41:18-21 - [Leviathan's] snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

Psalm 104:26 - There the ships sail about; There is Leviathan Which You have made to play there.

So if you can read the bible, it's obvious that there used to be fire breathing sea monsters! They all must have died during the ice age or something (an event which has very little impact on sea creatures). So lets all convert so that we can know about all kinds of other complete and utter rubbish that the bible espouses as true.

[SIZE=-20]The bible is full of [EXPLICATIVE].[/SIZE]
 

8000

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
1,458
Location
Canada eh!
Depending On The Independant said:
Firstly, read my post, I spoke about teenagers. How they go through different "underground religions". I said that its like an underground mainstream where everyone has to be interested in politics and religion, be against corporate authority. I've only seen some posts on after death thoughts that seemed to link with what I say, and I mentioned it once and closed the topic. Instead of jumping at the bit, think about your reply for more than five minutes.
Where in your post did you mention teenager underground cults? You did not my friend, we cannot read minds and that is what i was trying to express by responding to your post. Ae least your most recent one contributed somewhat to the actual arguement. In your other posts, you had no opinion from what i could interpret.
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
Gamer4Fire said:
Is the bible real? Of course it is, I'm holding one now. But is the bible scientifically accurate? We all know its true, it talks about everything including dinosaurs.

Job 41:1 - Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:9 - Any hope of subduing [leviathan] is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
Job 41:18-21 - [Leviathan's] snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

Psalm 104:26 - There the ships sail about; There is Leviathan Which You have made to play there.

So if you can read the bible, it's obvious that there used to be fire breathing sea monsters! They all must have died during the ice age or something (an event which has very little impact on sea creatures). So lets all convert so that we can know about all kinds of other complete and utter rubbish that the bible espouses as true.

The bible is full of [EXPLICATIVE].
In my opinion, any people who can dream up "God" could dream up anything. It's nice to quote thinks from a book, but thats al it is at this point, a book that was written so long ago, by people with limited knowledge and understanding; I personally don't find it a creditable source. While it was being written, it may have been 'flared' up, or the actuay event skewed by baias, knowledge (limited in this case). Also with the time that passes from when the event actually happened, the memory warps; these things I described are true of any records at almost every point in history.

I would say, you can no more quote the bible on creation, any more than you can quote a novel.

As for the dinosaurs, when were they extinct? 65 million years ago? According to the bible, wasn't the Earth created sometime toward 10,000 years ago or so? I go back to my case of fiction. It's the only logical way it could have been in the bible.

I want to keep this going as much as the next person, so I would rather stick the the part about Evolution and creationism, instead of Dinosaurs. :dizzy:

About the youth defying religeon and such because they think it is "cool", I think it is false. In my opinion, people are becoming individuals, more knowledgeable and opinionated. From their knowledge they can make their own decisions, and follow their own beliefs that they have the right to.

In my opinion, parents shuving beliefs down their children is a violation of their rights, they have the right to believe in what they want. By doing so, you warp them, and in turn make they believe in things. When they grow up, they should be allowed to do what they want, the infomation isn't being with-held, so it is always there.

I would say more, but I need to do stuff. Try to say things that don't sound too stupid, this is a debate afterall.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9
Depending On The Independant said:
I was sent this thread through my buddy 8000, and I thought I wuld add my 2 cents; well maybe 3.

I've looked around and tried to be things that I now find unbelievable, Punk, catholic, Wiccan, etc. and now a lot of this stuff about faith versus evolution is just getting annoying, seeing as I attend an art school full of copies of the same person. 95% of them own Chucks, pentagrams, pentacles, Black Eyeliner, fishnets, I think you get the point.

Defying religion is now a phase and is now considered cool in underground culture. its like looking down Queen Street in Toronto and seeing 7 out of 10 people walking sporting a Che Guevare shirt, with studs. Another example is the landing on the moon conspiracy. Its not something that can be spoken of without having what I would call the Dependant Independant (hence my name) come and talk, reciting books about, oh I dunno, The state of Africa, or poverty in the USA, without honeslty knowing what they are talking about.

There, I spoke about school (which unless I'm mistaken, invovles teenagers) and the underground culture that teenagers go through, now let it go.

8000 said:
Where in your post did you mention teenager underground cults? You did not my friend, we cannot read minds and that is what i was trying to express by responding to your post. Ae least your most recent one contributed somewhat to the actual arguement. In your other posts, you had no opinion from what i could interpret.
Now the word there is interpret. I've described twice that I don't believe in Christian God, and my thoughts that nothing can exist before time. That seems to be an obvious opinion. Now, focus on the topic, not trying to outsmart me, I'm not attacking you back now am I?.
 

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
In reality, there is no such thing as time. Time is a 4 letter word that we can actually measure some we can keep track of our lives but time doesn't really exist. Our lives don't exist in the motion of freaze frame pictures nor is there a framerate that measures our lives. Just like the world isn't art so we can live without art. This is off topic but I had to state this. . .

Anyways, to conclude this debate, the bible has been deemed useless in this debate and is not a reliable source. The creationist here are only using references from the Bible I've notice but there is so much proof here that deems the Bible useless due to the many flaws and contradictions all over the pages of the ancient book. Like the many other Religions that have existed through history, most believed they were real, much like today. All religions have a few things in common...they have people worshiping to their god(s) and that religion isn't real and is today, just a way to escape reality. There is no proof of anything religion throws at you. In this case, creationism is ruled, False and Religion is obselete! Science, on the other hand, has tons and tons of proof to back most of it up with more proof to back up its proof, deeming science to be true over religion, religion only having one source, the Bible which can't be used as proof. Evolution has been proven...Creationism has not been proven meaning that this debate is over. Evolution/Big Bang wins!

This is the first time I've seen total victory in a debate on this subject to be honest with you guys!
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9
I don't agree, on the time factor. The bible is as about as reliable as a laugh in King of the Hill (kidding there). The bible is now worthless to use to prove the existance of god. These stories try to bring closer to our supposed creator, but just pushes me further away. A being that is so insecure that he must have everyone fear and know his name is not someone I want my future children to kneel and worship to. If he supposedly gave up his son for us, maybe he was pissed off at the little *******? Maybe it was some sort of life lesson? "I'm gunna make you live son, and in 27 years you'll forget all your sins and die and come home." (that is very stupid and wrong, I'm just bored and thought I would please myself).

In all seriousness, what can exist before time? Time maybe be stopping and starting every second as I write, and I won't notice; time could be stopping and starting as a man is mugged and shot, yet we can't tell. We cannot tell if time stops, we stand still. If there is nothing to set the universe in motion, everything would be still. So lets imagine there is a god, he can't create something that gives us motion and life, it gives him motion and life. I just don't find that possible, but it's only a theory, I haven't met one on this board completely crazy (well maybe one).
 

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
That's what most people think about time but time isn't real. Motion and Life don't need time. In everyones individual mind, time flows differently. Time depends on individuals, their is no universal time though we have a measurement for it. Unlike photon, ectoplasm and matter, time is made of nothing, which means, it doesn't exist. The only reason you can measure time is to keep track of our schedules. Time depends on motion, not the other way around. This is why time travel is so far impossible. lets see. A long time ago, black holes were said to be tears in space, made out of space-time but that has been proven wrong. Black holes are actually a body, much like a star or a planet but with an super gravitational force so strong that light can't escape, hense making it black. (black holes should be renamed to Black stars or something like that.) Oh, and for those who believe "god is real because how can all this stuff in the universe be formed together", which is false and I will explain. Magnetic force, which also causes gravity. Got it!
 

Crimson King

I am become death
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
28,983
Listen children of ADD, the debate is about whether God created the Universe or Big Bang then evolution.

Stay on the topic.
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9
Time flows differently per person because of variables, time itself isn't a variable. The word time is something used for scheduling etc, but how can things move and be put in motion without something having contro, on that motion? How can my fingers move when I type, and it takes specific amount of time? It is the duration, and anything that exists can be measured (not everything real is made of matter, most of them are man made, like morals).

If time depends on motion, what gives motion the power to move along with the rest of the world? In my opinion, motion depends on time. It is the duration. You can't go from point A to point B without losing either a part of your life or the seconds you wasted walking from the couch to the tv set when the remote is lying underneath you.

It's still my opinion, and yours can very well make better sense than mine in my mind after some more scrutiny.
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
Depending On The Independant said:
Time flows differently per person because of variables, time itself isn't a variable. The word time is something used for scheduling etc, but how can things move and be put in motion without something having contro, on that motion? How can my fingers move when I type, and it takes specific amount of time? It is the duration, and anything that exists can be measured (not everything real is made of matter, most of them are man made, like morals).

If time depends on motion, what gives motion the power to move along with the rest of the world? In my opinion, motion depends on time. It is the duration. You can't go from point A to point B without losing either a part of your life or the seconds you wasted walking from the couch to the tv set when the remote is lying underneath you.

It's still my opinion, and yours can very well make better sense than mine in my mind after some more scrutiny.
Life has nothing to do with time. Motion depends on energy, energy creates motion. Time depends on the brain, the brain creates the feel of time through memory. Anything I miss?

If you want to talk about time, make a different thread, if this is all your going to talk about though, PM each other.
 

Fiery_Phoenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
241
Location
look at the avatar, genious
i beleive in big bang/evolution. for me, the idea of heaven and hell, and an almighty being are propostorious. if there is an almighty being, why is there world hunge? why is there war? couldnt he use his godly powers to stop these terrible things? now, if i see something that can only be explained as a miracle, a work of god, than i will probably change my ways. but until i see proof that "god" exists, i will always beleive in the scientific/logical explanation to human life
 

Deus Ex Machina

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
20
Leviathan is not a dinosaur, it's a mythical water snake. There are 2 other potential dinosaur-like mentionings and that's the behemoth, and dragon. All these mythical creatures, and all referring to non-existent things with remotely similar aspects to a dinosaur. Therefore the Bible does not mention Dinosaurs. And, erm, all these were derived from Roman mythology maybe...? Nobody thinks about that, geez. Because this Christianity started in the Roman empire so I'd assume they'd have some influence.

God created us to have the potential to betray him and commit to sin. He definitely indirectly created "sin." God's a sadist, or he's stupid, or both, take your pick. God's random because there is no need to create the universe, which would consequently create time. There is no need to make creatures in his own pure, heavenly image and put them on a planet. there is no point in giving these creatures life and an environment to work. There really is no point at all, ever. His also greatest archangel was satan himself, wow God must've blind as a bat. Scartch out omniscient and omnipresent. Deny God, he'll condemn you to burn in hell for all eternity. That does not make a benevolent leader, therefore, God can't be righteous either. Read The Divine Comedy, that'll put the flaw of judgment into light.

Bible's flawed, Quran's flawed, Torah's flawed. Get over it, religion is a fallacy because of such deep rooted zealousness. Creationists, I forbid you to quote such a discredited book as the Bible, and I forbid you to talk nebulously in such mystical terms.
 

HMWii22

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
860
Location
Toronto
Don't take this as an attack on theism or anything, but I just find it hard to believe that a magical man lives in the sky and controls everything I do. Chalk one up for evolution.
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
Studies say that an eye is way too complicated to be formed through mutations/evolution. How can an aomeaba develop something as complex as that? Also, why are there no snakes with wings or such? If it really was evolution, there should be many deformities, millions of swimming pidgeons on this earth. Also, there is NO record of a fossil depicting one animal turning into another.

In addition, for those who say evolution is a hypothesis, its not, it cant be tested. Even Darwin himself said that there is no proof.

Did you know that NASA calculated that the moon would have something around 50 feet of lunar dust? When armstrong stepped on it, do you know his words? One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Do you know the 2 words he said right after that? Ill bet you dont. "Its solid". 1/2 inch of lunar dust. Do you know why you never heard those 2 words? NASA cut it off! Because it would disprove evolution AND the big bang. 1/2 inch of lunar dust means only a few thousand years passed since its creation. Evolution in 6000 years? IMPOSSIBLE. Thats what scholars concluded. ". . . God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.

I dont believe for a second that an aoemeba could be my father. That requires aLOT more faith that believing in God as my father, doesnt it?

If all this doesnt satisfy, then one last thing: There is a LAW against evolution. It is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

If you still want to argue, ive got a LOT more where this came from.
 

ALTARIA228

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
360
Location
Cleveland (browns suck!)
Gamer4Fire said:
Is the bible real? Of course it is, I'm holding one now. But is the bible scientifically accurate? We all know its true, it talks about everything including dinosaurs.

Job 41:1 - Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:9 - Any hope of subduing [leviathan] is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.
Job 41:18-21 - [Leviathan's] snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

Psalm 104:26 - There the ships sail about; There is Leviathan Which You have made to play there.

So if you can read the bible, it's obvious that there used to be fire breathing sea monsters! They all must have died during the ice age or something (an event which has very little impact on sea creatures). So lets all convert so that we can know about all kinds of other complete and utter rubbish that the bible espouses as true.

[SIZE=-20]The bible is full of [EXPLICATIVE].[/SIZE]


Personally, I remember seeing your name on another post(see Pool Room,"anyone pissed because you don't believe in God?"), and I remember you saying that you were an atheist and that you read the bible for entertainment :ohwell: . Personally, I think I'm in the middle, I think the Big Bang was God creating the universe, it was just his power that caused the bang. And God made evolution, so really nobody is wrong or right here. This is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

The bible is full of prophecies and stories, not once do I see an [EXPLICATIVE] :laugh:
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
TheKeyboardist said:
Studies say that an eye is way too complicated to be formed through mutations/evolution.
What studies? I can do things like that too without citing a resource. I doesn't mean anything. Citing things is a good thing to do in a debate.

TheKeyboardist said:
How can an aomeaba develop something as complex as that? Also, why are there no snakes with wings or such? If it really was evolution, there should be many deformities, millions of swimming pidgeons on this earth. Also, there is NO record of a fossil depicting one animal turning into another.
You are absolutly righy about many things, an Amoeba can't develop something as complex as an eye, and there are no records of fossils depicting one animal turning into another, how could it? You must remember, evolution is not the flick of a switch, it takes millions of years, and it is not instant, it is a VERY GRADUAL process.

Why would snakes have wings and such? Evolution is a process where an organism better suits it's environment, and even if a snake needed to fly, it would be quite near impossible for that to happen, sometimes things are too big to adapt to.

Again, why would there be many deformaties if there was evolution? They way you say it, I would think that by 'deformaties', you mean something negative, and I wouldn't classify it as 'evolution', I would classify it as 'de-evolution', 'mutation', or as you put it, 'deformation'. Since de-evolution doesn't benafit the organism by adaption to it's environment, I doubt it will happen, the organism would sooner die than de-evolve. As for mutation, I bet the organism would die if it was a negative mutation as you are thinking it. As for a deformation, a deformation is not necessarily coded into an organisms DNA, so it wouldn't carry onto offsprings, so that's why there are no 'deformations' as you put it.

TheKeyboardist said:
In addition, for those who say evolution is a hypothesis, its not, it cant be tested. Even Darwin himself said that there is no proof.
What would you call evolution? I would call it a hypothesis/theory right now, and possibly, and probably it will be proven later on, but time will tell. You must remember, Darwin was not exactly the most educated person on evolution in our history, people now have much more knowledge to things, and access to more than he did. Darwin only proposed the theory, that doesn't mean he knew everything about it.

TheKeyboardist said:
Did you know that NASA calculated that the moon would have something around 50 feet of lunar dust? When armstrong stepped on it, do you know his words? One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Do you know the 2 words he said right after that? Ill bet you dont. "Its solid". 1/2 inch of lunar dust. Do you know why you never heard those 2 words? NASA cut it off!
Did I know that NASA calculated that? No, but do I really care now? What does NASA have to do with evolution? Correct me if I am wrong, isn't their primary focus Space Exploration, not Evoluton/Creation theory?

TheKeyboardist said:
Because it would disprove evolution AND the big bang. 1/2 inch of lunar dust means only a few thousand years passed since its creation.
Why would it disprove evolution and the Big Bang?

When you are saying this, about that dust that is, maybe NASA made a mistake? Mistakes happen. Also, you are saying that man did actually land on the moon, maybe they didn't. If they did land, the thrust from the lunar lander would have blown the dust clear away.

TheKeyboardist said:
Evolution in 6000 years? IMPOSSIBLE. Thats what scholars concluded. ". . . God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.
Evolution is 6000 years is impossible? You **** right it is, it takes millions of years to happen.

TheKeyboardist said:
I dont believe for a second that an aoemeba could be my father. That requires aLOT more faith that believing in God as my father, doesnt it?
I don't believe in a second that an Amoeba can be my father, only a crazy person would believe that.

As for the part of an Amoeba being one of the first organisms, that happens close to the bottom of the evolutionary chain, I for one, find it more resonable than than believing in "God", however it is not proven yet, but, the Amoeba is here, there is physical proof.

TheKeyboardist said:
If all this doesnt satisfy, then one last thing: There is a LAW against evolution. It is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Creationist have a common misconception, and try to use it to dispove evolution, really, when they are trying to bend it's meaning to fit their needs.

Read: Second Law

TheKeyboardist said:
If you still want to argue, ive got a LOT more where this came from.
I hope not, then I would need to type even more. :dizzy:
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
ESSAYS ON ORIGINS:

Can Evolution Produce an Eye? Not a Chance!
by Dr. David N. Menton, Ph.D.

This version copyright (c) 1994 by:
Missouri Association for Creation
_____________________________________________________________________

[No. 10 in a series] April 1994, Vol. 4, No. 4
_____________________________________________________________________

The human brain consists of approximately 12 billion cells, forming
120 trillion interconnections. The light sensitive retina of the eye
(which is really part of the brain) contains over 10 million
photoreceptor cells. These cells capture the light pattern formed by
the lens and convert it into complex electrical signals, which are then
sent to a special area of the brain where they are transformed into the
sensation we call vision.

In an article in _Byte_ magazine (April 1985), John Stevens compares
the signal processing ability of the cells in the retina with that of
the most sophisticated computer designed by man, the Cray supercomputer:

"While today's digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is
clear that the human retina's real-time performance goes
unchallenged. Actually, to simulate 10 milliseconds (one
hundredth of a second) of the complete processing of even a
single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of
about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times
and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a
Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or
more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it
would take a minimum of 100 years of Cray time to simulate what
takes place in your eye many times every second."

If a supercomputer is obviously the product of intelligent design,
how much more obviously is the eye a product of intelligent design? And
yet, evolutionists are dead certain that the human eye (and everything
else in nature) came into being by pure chance and the intrinsic
properties of nature! Evolutionists occasionally admit that it is
difficult for even them to believe such a thing. Ernst Mayr, for
example, has conceded that:

"...it is a considerable strain on one's credulity to assume that
finely balanced systems such as certain sense organs (the eye of
vertebrates, or the bird's feather) could be improved by random
mutations." (_Systematics and the Origin of Species_, p. 296).

Evolutionists rarely attempt to calculate the probability of chance
occurrence in their imagined evolutionary scenarios. While there is no
way to measure the probability of chance occurrence of something as
complex as the eye, there are ways to calculate the probability of the
chance occurrence of individual protein molecules that are essential to
life. Over a thousand different kinds of proteins have been identified
in the human body, and each has a unique chemical composition necessary
for its own particular function.

Proteins are polymers, whose chemical composition depends on the
arrangement of many smaller subunits called amino acids. There are 20
different kinds of amino acids that are used to construct the proteins
of all living organisms, including man. These amino acids are linked
together end-to-end (like a string of beads) to form a single protein
macromolecule. The average protein consists of a string of 500 amino
acids. The total number of combinations of 20 different amino acids in
such a string is, for all practical purposes, unlimited. Each protein
in our body, however, must contain a specific sequence of amino acids if
it is to function properly. It is the task of the genetic system in our
cells to organize the assembly of the amino acids into precisely the
right sequence for each protein.

Proteins have been called _informational_ macromolecules because
their amino acid sequence spells out information, in much the same way
as the letters of the alphabet can be arranged to form a sentence or
paragraph. We can appreciate the improbability of randomly assembling
one of the essential proteins of life by considering the probability of
randomly assembling the letters of the alphabet to form even a simple
phrase in English.

Imagine if we were to try to spell out the 23 letters and spaces in
the phrase "THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION" by using the evolutionary principle
of _chance_. We might proceed by randomly drawing characters from a
Scrabble set consisting of the 26 letters of the alphabet plus a space
(for a total of 27). The probability of getting any particular letter
or space in our phrase using this method would be one chance out of 27
(expressed as 1/27). The probability of getting all 23 letters and
spaces in the order required for our phrase can be calculated by
multiplying together the probability of getting each letter and space
(1/27 x 1/27 x 1/27 -- for a total of 23 times). This calculation
reveals that we could expect to succeed in correctly spelling our phrase
by chance, approximately _once_ in eight hundred, million, trillion,
trillion draws! If we were to hurry the process along and draw our
letters at the rate of a billion per second, we could expect to spell
our simple little phrase once in 26 thousand, trillion years! But even
this is a "virtual certainty" compared to the probability of correctly
assembling any one of the known biological proteins by chance!

The 500 amino acids that make up an average-sized protein can be
arranged in over 1 x 10^600 different ways (that's the number ONE
followed by 600 zeros)! This number is vastly larger than the total
number of atomic particles that could be packed into the known universe.
If we had a computer that could rearrange the 500 amino acids of a
particular protein at the rate of a billion combinations a second, we
would stand essentially no chance of hitting the correct combination
during the 14 billion years evolutionists claim for the age of the
universe. Even if our high-speed computer were reduced to the size of
an electron and we had enough of them to fill a room measuring 10
billion light years square (about 1 x 10^150 computers!), they would
still be exceedingly unlikely to hit the right combination. Such a
"room" full of computers could only rearrange about 1 x 10^180
combinations in 300 billion years. In fact, even if all the proteins
that ever existed on earth were _all different_, our "room" full of
computers would be exceedingly unlikely to chance upon the combination
of _any one of them_ in a mere 300 billion years!

Evolutionists counter that the whole probability argument is
irrelevant since evolution is utterly purposeless, and thus never tries
to make anything in particular! They insist, more over, that "natural
selection" makes the impossible, possible. But evolutionists were
vigorously challenged on this claim by mathematicians in a symposium
held at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (the proceedings were
published in the book, _Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian
Interpretation of Evolution_) Murray Eden, Professor of Engineering at
M.I.T. said:

"The chance emergence of man is like the probability of typing at
random a meaningful library of one thousand volumes using the
following procedure: Begin with a meaningful phrase, retype it
with a few mistakes, make it longer by adding letters; then
examine the result to see if the new phrase is meaningful.
Repeat this process until the library is complete."

I will leave it to the reader to consider the probability that an
intelligent Designer and Builder can intelligently design and build an
eye.
_______________________________________________________________________

Dr. Menton received his Ph.D. in Biology from Brown University. He has
been involved in biomedical research and education for over 30 years.

Dr. Menton is President of the Missouri Association for Creation, Inc.

Originally published in:
St. Louis MetroVoice
PO Box 220010
St. Louis, MO 63122
_______________________________________________________________________

Corrections and revisions have been made by the
author from the original published essay.

This text file prepared and distributed
by the Genesis Network (GenNet).

Origins Talk -- (314) 821-1078, Walt Stumper, Sysop.
FidoNet, 1:100/435; FamilyNet, 8:3006/28;
GenNet, 33:6250/1
c1749h@umslvma.umsl.edu
walt.stumper@f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
Voice: (314) 821-1234

Genesis Network I -- (407) 582-1972, Jim Johnston, Sysop.
FidoNet, 1:3609/11; FamilyNet, 8:3111/0;
GenNet, 33:6150/0
CompuServe: 73642,2576
Voice: (407) 582-1880

Contact either of the above systems for
information about file distribution and echos.

--- *** ---
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
Immediately after this article, be sure to read the personal letter we
received in response to this account of man's first steps on the moon.



" In The Beginning..."




Apollo 10 was the manned orbit of the moon preceding the Apollo 11 mission in which Neil Armstrong would be the first man to walk on the moon.

On Apollo 10 they were able to monitor with greater precision what they had monitored on previous flights: the gravitational field of the moon and the rate at which dust particles are landing on the moon's surface.

You see, the moon is being bombarded constantly with cosmic dust particles, and when the Apollo astronauts were able to determine precisely the gravitational pull of the moon, then the rate at which dust collects on its surface could be calculated.

Therefore, if the approximate age of the moon is known and the amount of dust covering its surface in a given time is also known, the approximate depth of the dust today on its surface can be determined mathematically; it's a simple matter of multiplication.

According to almost all evolutionary concepts, the earth and the moon are 4.5 BILLION years old and using this age to calculate the depth of dust on the moon, the NASA scientists were faced with a problem: even using the most conservative calculations, the very least amount of loosely consolidated dust on the surface of the moon would be 54 feet deep.

That meant when Neil Armstrong stepped onto the surface of the moon he would step into a loosely consolidated sea of cosmic dust as little as 54 feet deep and possibly much deeper according to NASA figures.

This presented a real concern to many NASA scientists and engineers. This is why they outfitted the lunar lander with those huge pods as many of you probably recall seeing in photographs of the lunar mission. This is also the reason that the lunar rover had those big balloon tires; it could even have been driven across a big body of water and since they expected a tremendous amount of dust they made it so it wouldn't sink into anything.

They even trained Neil Armstong to go down the ladder outside the lunar lander backwards and slowly, one step at a time, and when he came to the bottom rung to be sure not to jump off into all that dust because he might have a lot of trouble swimming out of it.

The man whose job it was to keep in communication with Neil Armstrong while he was walking on the moon relates that as Neil got to the last rung of the ladder he paused and spoke those famous words heard all around the world: "One small step for a man," then he paused again, and then stepping off the bottom rung and onto the moon he said: "one giant leap for mankind."

That's when the commentators went wild, breaking in to say: "That's the first statement on the moon!" and went on with their commentary. But they had cut off Neil Armstrong's next two words, which are probably more famous in faithful scientific circles than are his first eleven. Stan Stepanek, whose job it was to stay in touch with Neil Armstrong relates that after the commentators broke in on Neil after his famous first words on the moon, his next two words totally destroyed the concept of evolution.

After Neil said "One small step for a man, [pause while stepping down] one giant leap for mankind" and while the commentators were going wild, Neil said: "IT'S SOLID". It took only these two words to totally destroy the concept of evolution if you look at it scientifically, academically and faithfully because those two words showed that only a few thousand years of time have passed, at the rate cosmic dust is coming in, producing on the surface of the moon an average of under one-half of an inch of dust overall.

Do you understand what this means? It means that scientific evidence is piling up that the earth and the universe as we know it is young after all. Did you know that a majority of scholars studying Biblical chronologies have determined the age of the earth to be a little over 6000 years old? * Did you know that the actual amount on dust measured on the surface of the moon equals very close to 6000 years of accumulation of dust at the rate measured by the Apollo missions?

". . . God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.

Much of the information in the above article was supplied by Dr Carl Baugh of Creation Evidences Museum in Glen Rose, Texas.



The following is a personal letter we recently received about the above article:


July 20, 2002

Thomas S Doherty
116 Sedgwick St
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130


Dear Jon,

You have a great web site. I have been intrigued with Creation/Evolution for quite some time now. While browsing, I came across this paragraph (on your web site):

" What were Neil Armstrong's next words after he said "One small step for a
man, one giant leap for mankind!"? He spoke two words that totally destroyed
the THEORY of evolution if you look at it scientifically, academically, and
faithfully: he said, "IT'S SOLID!!!" If one looks at that record faithfully,
much of that "giant leap for mankind" was in proving evolutionary THEORY
false and God's Word true."

http://home.bluemarble.net/~heartcom/inthebeginning.html

I was fortunate to watch the first Apollo on live TV. Knowing that there would be a "canned" statement when the Astronaut stepped onto the surface of the moon, I was attuned to the first 'real' comment he would make. I was somewhat shocked to CLEARLY hear that first observation, "It's solid!" So shocked, that I turned to my parents and made a sarcastic remark, 'What did he think it was made of, Green Cheese?' So, after all these years, I can clearly remember the incident. One of the most important pictures (I bought a set at the time) was the shot of the footprint on the moon with only a minimum of dust showing.

Not long ago, I recalled the event and did a search on the Internet and found a Transcript of the radio transmissions. I had my second shock of that event. The statement that I remember so well was edited OUT of the transcript and replaced with a remark that the transmission was garbled. See (the link for) Transcript segment below. There was NOTHING garbled about that transmission, the statement came through NATIONAL TV as clear as a bell.

Furthermore, if anyone really thinks that NASA was not worried about the lander sinking. Then they owe it to themselves to take a trip to Washington and see the craft in the Smithsonian. The first time I saw the module I though that the design was very odd. After seeing it in person, I understood the design. NASA was so concerned about the vehicle sinking that they put it on stilts, had HUGE floats attached to the legs and also equipped it with a mechanism to only allow the engines to shut down if there was a solid base. Just looking at the vehicle and then considering that it was landing in a gravity 1/6th Earth's convinced me that NASA was paranoid about the lander sinking.

I believe that at the time of the Apollo missions, it was common knowledge that one of the expectations was to PROVE the age of the moon was very old. I now realize that this was the Evolutionist/Creationist battle in full swing back then.

The reason I bring this to your attention is I am a FIRST SOURCE, and I hate to think that this important information will be lost when I die. It clearly documents the lengths that evolutionists will go to ELIMINATE documentation that supports Creation. I should further mention that AT THE TIME THIS OCCURRED, I WAS AN EVOLUTIONIST. Fortunately, I came to know the Lord a short time later.

Keep up the great work!

Thomas S. Doherty
116 Sedgwick St.
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
E-Mail: ztsd@yahoo.com



Link to radio transcript of first Apollo Moon Landing:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/a11.html
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
ESSAYS ON ORIGINS:

The Hopeful Monsters of Evolution
by Dr. David N. Menton, Ph.D.

This version copyright (c) 1994 by:
Missouri Association for Creation
_____________________________________________________________________

[No. 12 in a series] June 1994, Vol. 4, No. 6
_____________________________________________________________________

Since the time of Darwin, evolutionists have looked to the fossil
record for historical evidence of evolution. Most evolutionists now
concede, however, that the fossil record fails to show the progressive
transformation of any living organism into a distinctly different kind
of organism. This has presented some nasty difficulties for
evolutionists -- but they have made it clear that they will not be
dissuaded by the mere lack of evidence, nor will they turn to a Creator
to explain this enigma. Rather, evolutionists hope that _monsters_ may
come to their rescue!

All animals and plants appear suddenly in the fossil record and are
not preceded by continuous transitional stages. While some of these
fossilized organisms have become extinct, many have persisted right up
to the present time in what appears to be essentially their original
form, showing only a limited range of variation. Bats, for example,
appear suddenly in the fossil record with no evidence of "pre-bat"
ancestors. Fossil bats have all the same distinctive features we see in
bats today, including extraordinarily long webbed fingers on their fore
limbs and "backward" facing hind limbs. (Bat knees and toes face to the
rear!) Even the distinctive shape of the bat skull, which serves to
channel sound to their ears for navigation by sonar (echo location), is
found in fossil bats just as it is in all modern bats.

The absence of even a single example of a continuous fossil sequence
showing the progressive stages of evolution of any plant or animal would
certainly seem to be an insurmountable problem for evolutionism.
Evolutionists have long been aware of this problem and have felt
compelled to try to explain it away by any means possible, short of
abandoning their faith in evolutionism itself. In 1944, the
evolutionist George Gaylord Simpson spoke of these missing transitional
forms in his book _Tempo and Mode In Evolution_:

"Their absence is so nearly universal that it cannot, off hand,
be imputed to chance, and does require some attempt at special
explanation as has been felt by most paleontologists."

Paleontologists have indeed been trying to imagine some "special
explanation" for how progressive evolution could occur without leaving
any fossil evidence. Since evolutionary speculations have rarely been
restricted by the demands of experimental verification, evolutionists
have allowed their imaginations to run free and have now devised a
really outrageous explanation for their lack of evidence.

In the 1930s, paleontologist Otto Schindewolf concluded that the
missing links in the fossil record were not really missing at all, but
rather were never there in the first place! Schindewolf proposed that
all the major evolutionary transformations must have occurred in _single
large steps_. He proposed, for example, that at some point in
evolutionary history, a reptile laid an egg from which a bird was
hatched! This bizarre notion was championed in 1940 by the geneticist
Richard Goldschmidt of the University of California at Berkeley. Like
Schindewolf, Goldschmidt resigned himself to the fact that true
transitional forms were not found despite over a hundred years of
searching for them, and that evolutionary theory would simply have to
accommodate this fact.

Goldschmidt sought to advance Schindewolf's notion of evolution
through single large steps by trying to imagine a plausible mechanism
for it. He suggested that the answer might lie in what are known as
embryological monsters, such as the occasional birth of a two-legged
sheep or a two-headed turtle. Goldschmidt conceded that such monsters
rarely survived very long in nature, but he hoped that over a long
period of time some monsters might actually be better suited to survive
and reproduce than their normal siblings. Goldschmidt named this
monstrously hopeless speculation the "_hopeful monster theory_." Since
there was not even the slightest shred of evidence to support the
hopeful monster theory, it was dismissed with derision by almost all
evolutionists of his time. But Goldschmidt was quick to point out to
his critics that there wasn't the slightest evidence for their gradual
evolution either!

The hopeful monster theory would have joined the "recapitulation
theory" in the scrap heap of abandoned evolutionary speculations, were
it not for Stephen J. Gould and Niles Eldredge. In 1972, these
influential evolutionists resurrected the long-discredited hopeful
monster theory and gave it a more respectable name -- "_punctuated
equilibrium_." This theory speculates that the intermediate stages in
the evolution of organisms do not appear in the fossil record because
these transitional organisms were short-lived, extremely unstable
species which, as luck would have it, quickly evolved into stable
species. Thus, the evolution of any organism is characterized by long
periods of _equilibrium_ (no evolutionary change) during which time many
offspring, and thus many fossils, are produced -- _punctuated_ by
relatively rapid bursts of evolution that left no fossil record. In the
May 1981 issue of _Discover_ magazine, Gould explained that "two
outstanding facts of the fossil record -- geologically sudden origin of
new species and failure to change thereafter" actually "_predicted_"
this new evolutionary theory!

While most evolutionists have now reluctantly accepted punctuated
equilibrium as the only way out of a difficult situation (i.e., no
evidence), a few stubbornly cling to classical Darwinism, and indeed it
is this discredited version of evolution that is generally taught as
"fact" in our schools. Eldredge challenged classical Darwinists by
reminding them that they could disprove punctuated equilibrium theory if
they were to find so much as a single series of intermediate forms in
the fossil record; no one has. Of course the sudden appearance of
relatively unchanging organisms in the fossil record is perfectly
consistent with special creation, but most evolutionists find the idea
of an omnipotent Creator to be simply unthinkable.

Many of the arguments that Eldredge and Gould have used to refute the
beliefs of classical Darwinists sound like they are actually trying to
support special creation, but this is hardly their intent. For example,
in his regular column in _Natural History_ magazine (May 1977 pp. 12-16),
Gould chided the gradual evolutionists for appealing to the "_extreme
imperfection_" of the fossil record in an effort to explain the missing
links. He countered that even if we were to grant this "_traditional
escape_," it still would not answer the biggest question -- the
viability of the transitional forms themselves. Gould pointed out that
it is difficult to even imagine how transitional animals passing through
the intermediate stages of evolution would be benefited or even survive.
He asked:

"Can we invent a reasonable sequence of intermediate forms, that
is, viable, functioning organisms, between ancestors and
descendants? Of what possible use are the imperfect incipient
stages of useful structures? What good is half a jaw or half a
wing?"

Now that's a good question: One only needs to imagine a mouse-like
creature slowly transforming into a bat to appreciate what Gould is
saying. The reader may well ask at this point, of what use is
evolutionary speculation itself -- and why is it being taught as a
"fact" in our schools?
_______________________________________________________________________

Dr. Menton received his Ph.D. in Biology from Brown University. He has
been involved in biomedical research and education for over 30 years.

Dr. Menton is President of the Missouri Association for Creation, Inc.

Originally published in:
St. Louis MetroVoice
PO Box 220010
St. Louis, MO 63122
_______________________________________________________________________

Corrections and revisions have been made by the
author from the original published essay.

This text file prepared and distributed
by the Genesis Network (GenNet).

Origins Talk -- (314) 821-1078, Walt Stumper, Sysop.
FidoNet, 1:100/435; FamilyNet, 8:3006/28;
GenNet, 33:6250/1
c1749h@umslvma.umsl.edu
walt.stumper@f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
Voice: (314) 821-1234

Genesis Network I -- (407) 582-1972, Jim Johnston, Sysop.
FidoNet, 1:3609/11; FamilyNet, 8:3111/0;
GenNet, 33:6150/0
CompuServe: 73642,2576
Voice: (407) 582-1880

Contact either of the above systems for
information about file distribution and echos.

--- *** ---
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
I have MANY other places where i got that but all of them are rather long and i dont think youd bother to read them. Sorry for the quadruple post.
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
TheKeyboardist said:
Imagine if we were to try to spell out the 23 letters and spaces in
the phrase "THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION" by using the evolutionary principle
of _chance_. We might proceed by randomly drawing characters from a
Scrabble set consisting of the 26 letters of the alphabet plus a space
(for a total of 27). The probability of getting any particular letter
or space in our phrase using this method would be one chance out of 27
(expressed as 1/27). The probability of getting all 23 letters and
spaces in the order required for our phrase can be calculated by
multiplying together the probability of getting each letter and space
(1/27 x 1/27 x 1/27 -- for a total of 23 times). This calculation
reveals that we could expect to succeed in correctly spelling our phrase
by chance, approximately _once_ in eight hundred, million, trillion,
trillion draws! If we were to hurry the process along and draw our
letters at the rate of a billion per second, we could expect to spell
our simple little phrase once in 26 thousand, trillion years! But even
this is a "virtual certainty" compared to the probability of correctly
assembling any one of the known biological proteins by chance!
I just kinda skimmed though this first post, and came to a small conclution.

This person is only saying what he want people to hear, without actually saying thw whole story.

By my understanding, only one person is drawing letters, and by those calculations, it is near impossible, but it is not toallty impossible, only improabable.

Just imagine if you will, every person on this Earth, drawing letters at the same rate. This improababilty is now more probable.

Now for the evolution aspect, think of Earth being the only thing is this universe (it isn't hard, that's what most creationist do after all). The probability is very improbable, and would take longer than this current universe has existed.

Now think of Evolution taking part in the vast space of our galaxy, our galaxy is HUGE. The liklihood of Evolution is even more probable than it was last described.

Now think of Evolution on a scale of the whole universe. The universe contains an almost uncountable amount of galaxies, and Earths for the matter. Now the liklihood of evolution is so pronbable in a time frame as large as this, that it is almost a reality.

This person is only expressing what will make people believe what he wants to get across. His thinking may be described as thinking inside the box, or what I say, inside a box that is 0.001ym.

---------------------------

As for the second post, I say myself that nobody knows much about the past, anything could have happened to the moon in that time.

I also go back to my point, you assume that man actually landed on the moon (that would make a great debate topic too by the way), it's hard to know if they actually did land on the moon.

---------------------------

As for the last post, you ignore the fact that the "Hopeful Monster" is not a basis of evolution theory.
 

Deus Ex Machina

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
20
1st Article- You can argue and argue and argue until your blue in the face that it's mathematically improbable that any of this could happen. But then you start with 1 trial, then 2 trials, then a 3rd trial, so on until you reach Googolplex, and then Googolplex ^ Googolplex, and there.... anything is possible. Imagine probability (as it should be) as a ratio. You can increase the improbability of life occurring, of evolution occurring, but then you look at the denominator and you notice that it's an unfathomable number; then there's hope…

2nd Article- It's kind of sad for the Dr. to have to state his credentials, that shows a sign of uncertainty. My alternative to the "equilibrium" theory would be that all the transitory stages of evolutionism do not show up on a fossil record because of 2 reasons. One, the change must be so fundamentally significant that it has to change the species entirely at that one moment and exact mutation, otherwise no change will be shown. And secondly, even if there was this breathtaking mutation of such a radical variety, odds are, it still wouldn't show because it has to be core bone to show up on a fossil record, except for the paleobotanology area. The process of fossilization entails... mineral resorption for the body, eroding of all none hard bone tissue, and imprinting upon the earth around it. Rather arduous trials for such subtle changes to be distinguished, eh?

Keep ‘em coming, I'm ready for more. Hey look! I'm typing in black text! Hah! You probably expected for me to type some half-a**ed subversive text, but I didn't. =)
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
Either way, assembling the protiens in the correct sequence is an infinitesmally small chance. By evolution, were not talking about billions of people, its just one chance, one earth.

Right now, were talking about "earth", thats all. Who knows, there may be other planets with life, its all based on His plan for the universe. Although the Bible never said he created other planets with life, so we never know.

Well, think about this: A fossil was found with a dinasaur footprint next to a human one. Dont say that the human footprint was imprinted after. Fossils can only form at the same time. You cant fossilize on something that was fossilised earlier.

As for the moon, what could have possibly happened to blow 50 feet of lunar dust away from EVERY SITE ON THE MOON?

As for the last article, it shows that there has never been a fossil that showed an animal changing. I think with all these dinosaur fossils, there ought to be a fossil of a horselike elephant with tusks or something.

Deus, are you saying that ALL of the mutations had no bones whatsoever? And also, even a tiny pit would have shown, maybe a bird with a few extra feathers, little things. But, no dice.

And was that black text supposed to be invisible? I can see it as clear as anything even without highlighting.
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
Crimson King said:
It's situational. Monkeys began to walk on two legs because the climate changes caused the rainforests of Africa to become a savannah. They adapted to the situation by standing upright to see over the plants for predators and food. As they taught their young to do this, they, too, began to walk upright.

Likewise, as amoeba, we adapted to land because the environment forced it.


Now, since we can pretty much all agree that our basis for Creation is the bible, then how is it possible that the bible says man began the same time as animals when we have evidence of dinosaurs? That's such a vital flaw that points out the bible isn't completely accurate.

There is a fossil that shows a dinasaur and human footprint together. Dinos were around at the time of humans. So then that would rule out the meteor theory, so how DID they die?
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
TheKeyboardist said:
Either way, assembling the protiens in the correct sequence is an infinitesmally small chance. By evolution, were not talking about billions of people, its just one chance, one earth.
With billions of people, and other planets (one cannot deny the reality of another planet existing somewhere in the universe that has some resembence of Earth, and with some type of life on it), the chances of life though evolution and the such become more probable.

Of course, life started with a single celled organism, but that one bacame 2, then 4, then 16, etc...and then the evolutionary process came into play.

You cannot say that there is only one person on this Earth, and that the chances of Evolution are astronomical, when there is not only one person. You have to think real.

Also, ever hear of luck? It's NEVER impossible.

TheKeyboardist said:
Right now, were talking about "earth", thats all. Who knows, there may be other planets with life, its all based on His plan for the universe. Although the Bible never said he created other planets with life, so we never know.
Right now, we are talking about Creationism and Evolution, don't forget that. Who knows if there is life on other planets like you said, but the CHANCE is very probable according to the size of the universe.

TheKeyboardist said:
Well, think about this: A fossil was found with a dinasaur footprint next to a human one. Dont say that the human footprint was imprinted after. Fossils can only form at the same time. You cant fossilize on something that was fossilised earlier.
What about it? Dinosaurs where extinct 65 million years ago. According to you, and many other creationist, the Earth is only about 10,000 years old, you even said that the Earth was about 6,000+ years old in a previous post.

Last time I checked: 65,000,000 > 10,000

TheKeyboardist said:
As for the moon, what could have possibly happened to blow 50 feet of lunar dust away from EVERY SITE ON THE MOON?
I said that no one can know for sure.

You can't keep tip toeing around my claims about he Moon Landing conspiracy.

TheKeyboardist said:
As for the last article, it shows that there has never been a fossil that showed an animal changing. I think with all these dinosaur fossils, there ought to be a fossil of a horselike elephant with tusks or something.
65,000,000 > 10,000

Also, why would there be a 'horselike elephant with tusks or something'?
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
KiraYamato said:
I dont know if this was said at all yet but how can you not believe in evolution. All the scientific facts are there. It has been proven. Has god been proven to be real? No there is no evidence of his existence.
In my opinion religion = organized ignorance.

What are you talking about? What "facts"? There are none. Its not even a hypothesis. Since the definition says you must be able to test it. How the heck can you test evolution? Oh, and you expect to get that infinitesimal protien figure correct?

And how has it been proven? There is NO proof for evolution or the big bang. Darwin himself said there is no proof for evolution.

Next time you reply, check over your "facts" before you come in here and ramble on about your supportless points.
 

Crimson King

I am become death
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
28,983
I warned you twice already in this topic. At 6 points you are banned.

Learn what the edit button means and then post.
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
TheKeyboardist said:
What are you talking about? What "facts"? There are none. Its not even a hypothesis. Since the definition says you must be able to test it. How the heck can you test evolution? Oh, and you expect to get that infinitesimal protien figure correct?

And how has it been proven? There is NO proof for evolution or the big bang. Darwin himself said there is no proof for evolution.

Next time you reply, check over your "facts" before you come in here and ramble on about your supportless points.
Did you read what I said about Darwin?

Lanowen said:
You must remember, Darwin was not exactly the most educated person on evolution in our history, people now have much more knowledge to things, and access to more than he did. Darwin only proposed the theory, that doesn't mean he knew everything about it.
I am going to limit what I was going to say to this. >>>>>>>

You could have put those posts into 1 post. SLOW DOWN. Read other peoples posts, don't just say things over and over again without reading other's comments toward your idea.

TheKeyboardist said:
Next time you reply, check over your "facts" before you come in here and ramble on about your supportless points.
Are you going to use the bible? We decided that the Bible is not a proper source of evidence. READ. Your points don't go without it's fautly either, as do all of the points here, that is why this is a debate.

Sorry Crimson King, was in process of posting before you posted.
 

TheKeyboardist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2005
Messages
55
Oh yes, i keep forgetting to mention the "conspiracy". Of course, they made it all up, didnt they. And they also made up the Challenger and the Columbia explosion too, didnt they? And theyre actually safe at home. And the hubble telescope never got launched. All those pics are all fake, right? And the crew of Columbia and Challenger risked their life for a conspiracy, right? And all those other trips to the moon are all false as well then. And the ISS is false too. And of course, those shuttles had enough fuel to stay up there for a couple years before returning, right? And dont tell me they lifted off again. Oh yes, and the astronauts on apollo 11 grew 4 inches and came down, right? They took some secret pill and grew and came back so itll look true, huh? The weightlessness had no effect on them, yep. And the billion dollar funding they give NASA. The money they give that could be used for things like katrina. Theyd rather support some fake thing than support real people dying. And everyone at NASA are getting paid lots o money just to support a conspiracy. And im sure if we hold hostage neil armstrong and torture him, he'll say it was all false.

Now, without the sarcasm, the horselike elephant was an example. And ive heard rumors about things like those from evolution.

And how can you be sure dinos died out 65 million years ago? Were you there? How do you know this isnt just a big conspiracy? And why did they cut the feed from Neil Armstrong's landing then? Radiocarbon dating only works to a certain time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom