God or Big Bang/Evolution: Where do we Come From?

[TheCatPhysician]

Blazedaces, I think you're probably right. I think I was wrong about 2Lot contradicting evolution, and I apologize for being stupid and not realizing this earlier.

One thing I feel that you are wrong about though, is this:

You're stubborn and don't want to see true science, you only want to see yourself proven right.

One of the big things about being a Christian is trying to be humble ("Little Man by Supertones is a good song to show this), and I do admit when I'm wrong. If you read through my posts in this thread, you will see that I have admitted when I'm wrong on a couple or more subjects. Off the top of my head, when Snex and someone else explained to me that there is no quantifiable difference between micro/macro evolution, I was fine admitting that I was wrong and recanted my claim that macroeevolution hasn't been proven to be possible. And about the 24-hour days in Genesis. Those are the ones I can remember, there may or may not have been more.

Anyway, I think it would be interesting if you and/or Snex emailed the guy who wrote the article, and explain to him why the article is wrong. It would be interesting to see how he responds to it. But if you don't want to for some reason, that's OK I guess. I just want to see this guy's response before I'm fully done with the 2LoT vs. Evolution thing.

twallace@trueorigin.org


And for the record, I am a Junior in Highschool. I have taken Biology, Geology, and I'm taking Chemistry right now. Physics is next year. Also, I did read the article which I was linking to, several times. And I don't know if making assumptions on whether people have been in highschool or not based on their knowledge of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the BEST thing to do, but that's just my opinion. There are plenty of kids in my highschool who have no idea of what the 2LoT is, and when we learned it in Chemistry this year, basically all the teacher said about it was the example I referred to earlier, about a clean room being left completely alone, and tending towards disorder.

 

[snex]

Anyway, I think it would be interesting if you and/or Snex emailed the guy who wrote the article, and explain to him why the article is wrong. It would be interesting to see how he responds to it. But if you don't want to for some reason, that's OK I guess. I just want to see this guy's response before I'm fully done with the 2LoT vs. Evolution thing.

arguing with professional creationists is a waste of time. they have the tactical advantage of not having to be honest. a professional creationist's job is to swindle laypeople into buying their scam, just like any other scam artist. theyre no different from astrologers, psychics, crystal healers, etc. their livelihood depends on their ability to distort what the facts say and to peddle it to believers who dont have the resources to check the claims.

the only way to stop these people is to educate their victims until there is no longer a profit in scamming them.

 

[Kalypso]

arguing with professional creationists is a waste of time. they have the tactical advantage of not having to be honest. a professional creationist's job is to swindle laypeople into buying their scam, just like any other scam artist. theyre no different from astrologers, psychics, crystal healers, etc. their livelihood depends on their ability to distort what the facts say and to peddle it to believers who dont have the resources to check the claims.

the only way to stop these people is to educate their victims until there is no longer a profit in scamming them.

Except for the fact that our entire nation is full of ****tards who sit around and watch american idol all day, while we're at war with a country and 56% of the nation doesn't even know what continent it's on. The kind of *******es that buy magazines for their astrology, or call a ****ing psychic about a new relationship.

 

[TheCatPhysician]

Well, I don't think he would try to lie to people like that. If he is tricking people into buying his scam, it must be unintententional.

>>Does it bother you that you may be misleading others in the name of Christ?<<

It would indeed bother me to learn that I were misleading others in the name of Christ. Should it become evident to me that this has happened, I would take every necessary measure to remedy the situation as quickly as possible. It has in fact happened that the questionable (or outright erroneous) nature of certain details in my essays have been brought to my attention, and these have been corrected or removed, as necessary.

Furthermore,

a professional creationist's job is to swindle laypeople into buying their scam

If that's what he tries to do, then you should have no problem showing what facts he distorted, and how he was wrong, correct?

 

[blazedaces]

Blazedaces, I think you're probably right. I think I was wrong about 2Lot contradicting evolution, and I apologize for being stupid and not realizing this earlier.

One thing I feel that you are wrong about though, is this: One of the big things about being a Christian is trying to be humble ("Little Man by Supertones is a good song to show this), and I do admit when I'm wrong. If you read through my posts in this thread, you will see that I have admitted when I'm wrong on a couple or more subjects. Off the top of my head, when Snex and someone else explained to me that there is no quantifiable difference between micro/macro evolution, I was fine admitting that I was wrong and recanted my claim that macroeevolution hasn't been proven to be possible. And about the 24-hour days in Genesis. Those are the ones I can remember, there may or may not have been more.

Anyway, I think it would be interesting if you and/or Snex emailed the guy who wrote the article, and explain to him why the article is wrong. It would be interesting to see how he responds to it. But if you don't want to for some reason, that's OK I guess. I just want to see this guy's response before I'm fully done with the 2LoT vs. Evolution thing.

twallace@trueorigin.org


And for the record, I am a Junior in Highschool. I have taken Biology, Geology, and I'm taking Chemistry right now. Physics is next year. Also, I did read the article which I was linking to, several times. And I don't know if making assumptions on whether people have been in highschool or not based on their knowledge of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the BEST thing to do, but that's just my opinion. There are plenty of kids in my highschool who have no idea of what the 2LoT is, and when we learned it in Chemistry this year, basically all the teacher said about it was the example I referred to earlier, about a clean room being left completely alone, and tending towards disorder.

I would like to humbly apologize for the extremely rude assertion. If it helps to know, I was in a very bad mood when I wrote that response. I feel your response was cool and mature and I take back what I said about your level of education.

Edit: I honestly don't want to deal with some faith driven, charismatic "debunker" of science. If you want take what we said to you against his claims and ask him what his response would be...

 

[snex]

Well, I don't think he would try to lie to people like that. If he is tricking people into buying his scam, it must be unintententional.

you could say the same thing about any scam artist. in fact, many of them really do believe in what they are doing. take faith healers for example. peter poppoff was exposed as a fraud, yet he still has devoted followers. if you talked to him personally, youd be absolutely convinced of his sincerity. even if you point out his lies in public, it wont matter one bit.

If that's what he tries to do, then you should have no problem showing what facts he distorted, and how he was wrong, correct?

ive already pointed out to YOU what facts he is distorting and how.

furthermore, debating such people is exactly what they want. even if they get completely and utterly trashed, the fact that somebody engages them on equal ground means that their ideas are seriously considered. the worst thing you can do is engage them in this manner. you wouldnt seriously engage a crystal healer in a debate, youd tell him to publish his research in medical journals and get it recognized by the scientific community. the same applies to all pseudoscience, including creationism. if their ideas are to be considered, then they must go through the same process that all scientific ideas do. giving them debate time makes laypeople think that there really is a debate, when in fact there is not.

what i believe to be the correct course of action is exactly what i am doing here; educating laypeople on real science so that they are equipped to see through these frauds themselves. like i said earlier, exposing the frauds to their victims is the only way to remove the demand for their snake oil.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

It ends here.

You know what? This debate has been going on long enough. I'm going to end it right now with the following proof:

1. You're wrong.

2. I'm right.

3. Shut up!

 

[snex]

why are you bumping year old threads? jesus will punish you.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Ahem, ahem...

3. Shut up!

 

[snex]

who let this guy in here?

 

[Osco316]

God

Spoiler

but which one?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Who let me in here? I moderated this room for a crock pot cooking year. I let myself in here!

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Wow...this is crazy...yesterday it wasn't nearlly this amount of pages now it seems like a war goin on...anyway heres my thoughts on the situation:

Big Bang - I just dont see it working simply for the fact that everything....and I mean everything would have to had happened perfectly...

God -
Seems more plossiblable:
a)adam and eve, 2 perfect beings, are in a garden, and as a test god says "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"(Genesis 2:17)....now we all im sure know then satan comes uses the serpent to trick eve who tricks adam...kicked out the garden.

b)scientist say are bodys were designed to live forever, but after a while they just stop working and they cant explain why...the bible says "that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death spread to all men because they had all sinned"(Romans 5:12)Example kinda like adam is a cake pan, eve is the ingrediants...at first when you make a cake in that pan it comes out perfect, but ones the pan is messed up every cake from there on out will come out messed up...

c)in biblical times Jehovah(god) revealed things that no human could know such as:
"There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell" (Isaiah 40:22)


^this just seems better..../works for me...also theres alot more sprictures.

 

[snex]

what the HELL are you talking about? get an education for crying out loud!

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

what the HELL are you talking about? get an education for crying out loud!

explain...genious.

 

[snex]

why dont you try actually reading the thread before posting this ignorant nonsense? you dont even know what the big bang states, or the lines of evidence that lead SCIENTISTS (you know, those guys that figured out the laws that enable your computer to work) to accept it. if you want to be a part of the debate hall, then grow up and do some actual debating, not mere asserting that time-tested scientific theories are wrong because your favorite book of fairy tales says so.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

why dont you try actually reading the thread before posting this ignorant nonsense? you dont even know what the big bang states, or the lines of evidence that lead SCIENTISTS (you know, those guys that figured out the laws that enable your computer to work) to accept it. if you want to be a part of the debate hall, then grow up and do some actual debating, not mere asserting that time-tested scientific theories are wrong because your favorite book of fairy tales says so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang <----i did my research..."book of fairy tales"... explain.

 

[snex]

the bible is a book of fairy tales, especially the book of genesis. none of the events depicted in it have any evidence in their favor whatsoever. they were written during the babylonian exile by several different authors who had no understanding of science.

big bang cosmology (invented by a catholic, by the way) has made several specific predictions that have been confirmed by direct observations - observations that even you can repeat. one or more of these predictions could have been false, but every single one has been spot on. this is not a coincidence.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

the bible is a book of fairy tales, especially the book of genesis. none of the events depicted in it have any evidence in their favor whatsoever. they were written during the babylonian exile by several different authors who had no understanding of science.

Fairy tails you say?...interesting. Diffenernt authors who new nothing about science?...
If thats the case...explain: (Leviticus 13:47-59)

47 “As for a garment, in case the plague of leprosy develops in it, whether in a woolen garment or in a linen garment, 48 or in the warp or in the woof of the linen and of the wool, or in a skin or in anything made of skin, 49 and the yellowish-green or reddish plague does develop in the garment or in the skin or in the warp or in the woof or in any article of skin, it is the plague of leprosy, and it must be shown to the priest. 50 And the priest must see the plague, and he must quarantine the plague seven days. 51 When he has seen the plague on the seventh day, that the plague has spread in the garment or in the warp or in the woof or in the skin for any use for which the skin may be made, the plague is malignant leprosy. It is unclean. 52 And he must burn the garment or the warp or the woof in the wool or in the linen, or any article of skin in which the plague may develop, because it is malignant leprosy. It should be burned in the fire.

53 “But if the priest takes a look, and, there now, the plague has not spread in the garment or in the warp or in the woof or in any article of skin, 54 the priest must also command that they should wash that in which the plague is, and he must quarantine it a second seven days. 55 And the priest must look at the plague after it has been washed out, and if the plague has not changed its look and yet the plague has not spread, it is unclean. You should burn it in the fire. It is a low spot in a threadbare patch on either its underside or its outside.

56 “But if the priest has taken a look, and, there now, the plague is dull after it has been washed out, he must then tear it out of the garment or the skin or the warp or the woof. 57 However, if it still appears in the garment or in the warp or in the woof or in any article of skin, it is breaking out. You should burn in the fire whatever it is in which the plague is. 58 As for the garment or the warp or the woof or any article of skin that you may wash, when the plague has disappeared from them, it must then be washed a second time; and it must be clean.

59 “This is the law of the plague of leprosy in a garment of wool or of linen, or in the warp or in the woof, or in any article of skin, in order to pronounce it clean or to declare it unclean.”

Now according to the bible god gave them these orders in which to take the procautions when leprosy happened... now explain how a person would know how to do all these prosedures in a time were you said so yourself "were written during the babylonian exile by several different authors who had no understanding of science."...explain.

 

[snex]

i suppose god told them how too cook too! i mean, they didnt have science so they couldnt figure out to cook, right?

do you even think before you post? do you also think this is how doctors cure leprosy?

why dont you show me where the bible talks about DNA, or the hubble constant - things that would have been impossible for the hebrews to know *anything* about?

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

i suppose god told them how too cook too! i mean, they didnt have science so they couldnt figure out to cook, right?

do you even think before you post? do you also think this is how doctors cure leprosy?

why dont you show me where the bible talks about DNA, or the hubble constant - things that would have been impossible for the hebrews to know *anything* about?

The earth being round?...

Isaiah 40:22
22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,

Also Jesus foretold about the time of the end...

3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
how could he know this...guessing?...

And heres some more knowledge:
Accuracy of Scriptural Concepts. Regarding Hippocrates, a Greek physician of the fifth and fourth centuries*B.C.E. who has become known as “the father of modern medicine,” it is said: “He had no connection with the temple hospitals of his time, which were controlled by the priests of Asclepius, the god of healing.” (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 9, p. 227) Hippocrates was virtually contemporaneous with Malachi, but much that the Bible says about diseases was written by Moses about a thousand years earlier. Yet, significantly, it has been said: “The best informed medical researchers now doing the best work are arriving at the conclusion that the Bible is a very accurate scientific book.*.*.*. The facts of life, diagnosis, treatment, and preventive medicine as given in the Bible are far more advanced and reliable than the theories of Hippocrates, many still unproven, and some found to be grossly inaccurate.”—Dr.*H. O.*Philips, in a letter to The AMA [American Medical Association] News, published in its issue of July 10, 1967.

Concerning the Christian physician Luke, who wrote a Gospel and the book of Acts, Dr.*C. Truman Davis stated: “Where medical description is given, it is meticulously accurate. Luke uses a total of twenty-three Greek technical words found in Hippocrates, Galen and other medical writings of the period.”—Arizona Medicine, March 1966, “Medicine and the Bible,” p. 177.

Health benefits often resulted from observance of the Law. For instance, it required that at a military encampment human excrement be covered over (De 23:9-14), thus providing considerable protection from fly-borne infectious diseases such as dysentery and typhoid fever. Contamination of food and water was guarded against, the Law specifying that anything upon which an “unclean” creature fell in its death was rendered unclean and requiring that certain measures be taken, including the smashing of an earthenware vessel thus contaminated.—Le 11:32-38.

Significantly, it has been stated: “Prophylactic considerations were basic to this legislation, which when followed would go far toward preventing the incidence of food-borne polioencephalitis, the enteric fevers, food poisoning, and the parasitic worms. Insistence on the safeguarding of a clean supply of water was the most effective means of forestalling the rise and dissemination of diseases such as amoebiasis, the fevers of the enteric group, cholera, bilharziasis, and spirochetal jaundice. These prophylactic measures, which constitute a fundamental part of any system of public health, were of particular importance for the welfare of a nation living under primitive conditions in a subtropical region of the earth.”—The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, edited by G.*Buttrick, 1962, Vol. 2, pp. 544, 545.

 

[snex]

the earth is not a circle, and ancient greeks knew it was a sphere.

jesus fortelling his own death is in the same book that reports his death, so this means nothing.

the rest of your quotes are just standard copy-paste nonsense from apologetics websites that you dont even understand. none of these things require divine guidance to know.

how about you try using your own words and your own brain a bit instead of making me reply to crap you found on the internet? whats the matter, its out of order?

you also forgot to tell me where DNA or the cosmological constant are in the bible.