Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)

[SSGuy]

I think whether a costume has its face covered or not depends on what the character's most recognizable features are.

Sans' cheeky grin, Vault Boy's 50s art style and Cuphead's... Uh, cup head are what defines them, whereas Geno's most iconic features are his hat, cape and gun and Shantae's are her clothes and whip-hair.

The face on the Vault Boy or Cuphead's face are just not possible to recreate as a Mii. Which is why they are created the way they are. There isn't any special treatment Cuphead gets over Geno just because he has a full face but the community has in turn made it this hidden rule to gatekeep other Miis like Geno or at least do it in a sense to undermine Geno's representation. It's not just exclusively him but it's definitely been an ongoing thing

Spoiler

(Granted, I don't think the author of this comic was being malicious but it's definitely an example of how just plain wrong information can shape a community and the content it creates)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The face on the Vault Boy or Cuphead's face are just not possible to recreate as a Mii. Which is why they are created the way they are. There isn't any special treatment Cuphead gets over Geno just because he has a full face but the community has in turn made it this hidden rule to gatekeep other Miis like Geno or at least do it in a sense to undermine Geno's representation. It's not just exclusively him but it's definitely been an ongoing thing

Spoiler

View attachment 321000

(Granted, I don't think the author of this comic was being malicious but it's definitely an example of how just plain wrong information can shape a community and the content it creates)

Yeah, it does suck that a few people tried to make the whole costume thing more problematic than it is. Some just wanted a better face and that was it. Others took that way beyond what it should be. Like, there's no denying Geno's face is bleh, but if somebody just wanted a better face, that's not awkward. Some were satisfied with a Premium(for the purpose they mean full body costume in context) Geno just because it was better than the old one, but only if he couldn't be playable fully as is. I'd argue that's the minority though?

That said, you do bring up a very good point about why they have better faces. Honestly, I don't ever remember reading that, but that's probably why it was done. I can't say if it would be harder to program/code/model or not than the previous-style costumes, though. The only ones that clearly took longer was Bomberman, but that's only cause having different colors means you have to apply Textures 8 times in a row, not just one time. It's not much longer theoretically, but I never applied textures and I can say that recoloring some very huge pixel art is still time consuming. ...A few hours at most. Texturing is probably longer?

 

[ivanlerma]

The face on the Vault Boy or Cuphead's face are just not possible to recreate as a Mii. Which is why they are created the way they are. There isn't any special treatment Cuphead gets over Geno just because he has a full face but the community has in turn made it this hidden rule to gatekeep other Miis like Geno or at least do it in a sense to undermine Geno's representation. It's not just exclusively him but it's definitely been an ongoing thing

Spoiler

View attachment 321000

(Granted, I don't think the author of this comic was being malicious but it's definitely an example of how just plain wrong information can shape a community and the content it creates)

That Mii is acting really smug about being Geno

 

[WeirdAlFan101]

Where did the internet even get the idea to make him so pompous and full of himself? He may have more or less been an all powerful deity, but I definitely don't remember him ever being egocentric about it.

 

[Vector Victor]

Where did the internet even get the idea to make him so pompous and full of himself? He may have more or less been an all powerful deity, but I definitely don't remember him ever being egocentric about it.

Honestly, knowing the detractors, its probably their way to turn people off from supporting him if he comes off as an egotistical jackass, or them putting how they see the fanbase into his character as a take that.

And its not really about Geno. The Smash Character Hater Group would do that to any character that they feel "didn't know their place" in speculation. Speculation seems to be far more critical to some than the actual game, and if a name pops up too much, then they look for ways to knock that fanbase down. When Crash was a common name, people turned on him quickly for example.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Where did the internet even get the idea to make him so pompous and full of himself? He may have more or less been an all powerful deity, but I definitely don't remember him ever being egocentric about it.

I think that's more the characterization of the Mii than it is about Geno himself. I think that was supposed to be the joke.

Let's be real though; the costume we were given the past two games is creepy af and that is how you would expect someone wearing it who was not already a Genobro to act. I guess it's better than nothing but he as a character really does deserve better and we fans deserve better than it too.

 

[QQS]

This isn’t over yet, we have lost many battles, but not the war. Geno could still be the Cherry of the Cake, the Last STAR.

(Credit to Delzethin on YouTube).

What a perfect way to finish the battle with this 2 decades long requested doll possessed by a Star character, which has a perfect design, fun/fresh moveset, good music and story attached to Nintendo. Geno has been on Sakurai’s table since Brawl officially (and on polls since Melee I think) and maybe that’s why we have a extra spot in this Pass. Square is done with their 3 babies (Cloud, Sephiroth and the Heroes), they also sold first their Mii Geno, and now the century deal will be the Full Fighter, to have another character such requested as Banjo-Kazooie, and to finish this with the voice of the people, with Fan Demand, and also another 3rd Party hailing from a 1st Party world, another Mario character. That way, Mario starts Smash, it starts the DLC with PP, and finish it with Geno.

Im not saying it’s a 100% anymore, but don’t tell me there are no chances.

Don’t quit.

 

[kiteinthesky]

This isn’t over yet, we have lost many battles, but not the war. Geno could still be the Cherry of the Cake, the Last STAR.

View attachment 321136
(Credit to Delzethin on YouTube).

What a perfect way to finish the battle with this 2 decades long requested doll possessed by a Star character, which has a perfect design, fun/fresh moveset, good music and story attached to Nintendo. Geno has been on Sakurai’s table since Brawl officially (and on polls since Melee I think) and maybe that’s why we have a extra spot in this Pass. Square is done with their 3 babies (Cloud, Sephiroth and the Heroes), they also sold first their Mii Geno, and now the century deal will be the Full Fighter, to have another character such requested as Banjo-Kazooie, and to finish this with the voice of the people, with Fan Demand, and also another 3rd Party hailing from a 1st Party world, another Mario character. That way, Mario starts Smash, it starts the DLC with PP, and finish it with Geno.

Im not saying it’s a 100% anymore, but don’t tell me there are no chances.

Don’t quit.

I wouldn't worry about any of us qutting. There's no telling what could happen especially with the possibility of future DLC and we have to remember that Smash itself is popular enough that we will more than likely see future installments as the years go on, so assuming society doesn't collapse our chances are good that we will see Geno on the Smash roster at some point, and in a game again someday even if it isn't Smash.

In the meantime, while we do fan works, we should invest our time and emotional energy campaigning to get Geno in other mainline Nintendo games like Mario Kart, Mario Party and the sports games. That would be a very good foot in the door for Smash.

 

[S1itchey]

I think that's more the characterization of the Mii than it is about Geno himself. I think that was supposed to be the joke.

Let's be real though; the costume we were given the past two games is creepy af and that is how you would expect someone wearing it who was not already a Genobro to act. I guess it's better than nothing but he as a character really does deserve better and we fans deserve better than it too.

Couldn't agree more. I know it's not sakurais fault geno isn't in smash but the fact that hes just a costume for a second time is some bull****. He's been one of the most consistently highly requested characters since melee, ultimate has had a major focus on delivering longtime request like Ridley and k.rool, sakurai openly saying he wanted to add geno back in brawl, square already having they're 2 biggest franchises represented in smash, 20 years worth of fan demand and countless rereleases of super mario rpg. All this and what we get is a mii costume not once but TWICE. No upgrades or music to soften the blow. I feel cheated.

 

[Firox]

Couldn't agree more. I know it's not sakurais fault geno isn't in smash but the fact that hes just a costume for a second time is some bull****. He's been one of the most consistently highly requested characters since melee, ultimate has had a major focus on delivering longtime request like Ridley and k.rool, sakurai openly saying he wanted to add geno back in brawl, square already having they're 2 biggest franchises represented in smash, 20 years worth of fan demand and countless rereleases of super mario rpg. All this and what we get is a mii costume not once but TWICE. No upgrades or music to soften the blow. I feel cheated.

Honestly, I just wish we knew for certain WHY Geno got the shaft. Like, is SE actually a bunch of stingy divas? Are Nintendo execs the idiotic Mario puritans they've been rumored to be that despise adding anything new or original to the franchise (or in this case, just original)? Is it a bit of both? Licensing complications? I just want to know if there's a snowball's chance in hell of our boy getting in or if there's some shadowy cadre of jackasses that simply refuse to exhume Geno's body. Does Nintendo just not think Geno is relevant enough? Is it simply a matter of dollar signs and notoriety? Is Geno just considered too obscure? I'm aware that we'll probably never know the answers, and I suppose they wouldn't change anything in the long run, but man, I wish I had the closure. How badly I wish that Sakurai would lay the cards on the table one day after he finally retires. Somehow, I have a feeling that the real reason is a lot pettier and stupider than we think.

 

[ivanlerma]

Sakurai never made a comment as to why geno's a costume, i feel if the reason to why he's not in would be due to nintendo or square not believing he's good enough, then it's possible sakurai simply doesn't wanna address it as it would hurt so many people's hearts.

 

[Megadoomer]

Honestly, I just wish we knew for certain WHY Geno got the shaft. Like, is SE actually a bunch of stingy divas? Are Nintendo execs the idiotic Mario puritans they've been rumored to be that despise adding anything new or original to the franchise (or in this case, just original)? Is it a bit of both? Licensing complications? I just want to know if there's a snowball's chance in hell of our boy getting in or if there's some shadowy cadre of jackasses that simply refuse to exhume Geno's body. Does Nintendo just not think Geno is relevant enough? Is it simply a matter of dollar signs and notoriety? Is Geno just considered too obscure? I'm aware that we'll probably never know the answers, and I suppose they wouldn't change anything in the long run, but man, I wish I had the closure. How badly I wish that Sakurai would lay the cards on the table one day after he finally retires. Somehow, I have a feeling that the real reason is a lot pettier and stupider than we think.

Presumably, if it's anything negative to do with Square-Enix (like "they held back Final Fantasy VII content for DLC" - I believe it's been said that at least one company nearly kept us from having "Everyone is Here", and it's presumably either them or Konami, since Sega and Capcom seem more than willing to include content and Namco-Bandai is making the game), then nobody's going to be willing or able to say anything publicly, since that might jeopardize future collaborations.

 

[Icewolff92]

Honestly, I just wish we knew for certain WHY Geno got the shaft. Like, is SE actually a bunch of stingy divas? Are Nintendo execs the idiotic Mario puritans they've been rumored to be that despise adding anything new or original to the franchise (or in this case, just original)? Is it a bit of both? Licensing complications? I just want to know if there's a snowball's chance in hell of our boy getting in or if there's some shadowy cadre of jackasses that simply refuse to exhume Geno's body. Does Nintendo just not think Geno is relevant enough? Is it simply a matter of dollar signs and notoriety? Is Geno just considered too obscure? I'm aware that we'll probably never know the answers, and I suppose they wouldn't change anything in the long run, but man, I wish I had the closure. How badly I wish that Sakurai would lay the cards on the table one day after he finally retires. Somehow, I have a feeling that the real reason is a lot pettier and stupider than we think.

Shall I be honest? The more I think about it, the more it feels like the DLC Mii Costumes for Smash WiiU/3DS was a test to see if a specific fighter truly had a solid support base and not just something that barks loud but doesn´t bite at all.

 

[Firox]

Presumably, if it's anything negative to do with Square-Enix (like "they held back Final Fantasy VII content for DLC" - I believe it's been said that at least one company nearly kept us from having "Everyone is Here", and it's presumably either them or Konami, since Sega and Capcom seem more than willing to include content and Namco-Bandai is making the game), then nobody's going to be willing or able to say anything publicly, since that might jeopardize future collaborations.

While this is understandable, I'm not sure about the idea that SE purposely held back FFVII content for DLC, at least not from the beginning. The vibe I get from Nintendo was that FP2 was a result of FP1's success. This is further evidenced by Rex getting Mii costumed at the beginning of FP1 and then Pythra getting added in FP2. This seems to suggest that FP2 was more of an encore than a pre-planned endeavor. If SE were holding FFVII content hostage in exchange for Cloud coming with the base game, then we would have seen Seph in FP1. Based on the timing of Seph's reveal, it seems more like Nintendo was well aware of Cloud's beaming reception and decided to flesh out FF's content and sell fighter packs with one strategic pick.

Shall I be honest? The more I think about it, the more it feels like the DLC Mii Costumes for Smash WiiU/3DS was a test to see if a specific fighter truly had a solid support base and not just something that barks loud but doesn´t bite at all.

I agree. That said, do you really think Geno's costume would have flopped that hard compared to K rool's crappy costume or Isabel's? Or at very least, the myriad of generic costumes that came with Sm4sh? If we could get the sales numbers for the mii costumes, I think that would be enough to glean the answer for Geno's lack of official representation.

 

[Shroob]

While this is understandable, I'm not sure about the idea that SE purposely held back FFVII content for DLC, at least not from the beginning. The vibe I get from Nintendo was that FP2 was a result of FP1's success. This is further evidenced by Rex getting Mii costumed at the beginning of FP1 and then Pythra getting added in FP2. This seems to suggest that FP2 was more of an encore than a pre-planned endeavor. If SE were holding FFVII content hostage in exchange for Cloud coming with the base game, then we would have seen Seph in FP1. Based on the timing of Seph's reveal, it seems more like Nintendo was well aware of Cloud's beaming reception and decided to flesh out FF's content and sell fighter packs with one strategic pick.

On the flipside though, Sakurai did mention that he had been considering "One or two more fighters" once the DLC ended with FP1.

 

[Megadoomer]

While this is understandable, I'm not sure about the idea that SE purposely held back FFVII content for DLC, at least not from the beginning. The vibe I get from Nintendo was that FP2 was a result of FP1's success. This is further evidenced by Rex getting Mii costumed at the beginning of FP1 and then Pythra getting added in FP2. This seems to suggest that FP2 was more of an encore than a pre-planned endeavor. If SE were holding FFVII content hostage in exchange for Cloud coming with the base game, then we would have seen Seph in FP1. Based on the timing of Seph's reveal, it seems more like Nintendo was well aware of Cloud's beaming reception and decided to flesh out FF's content and sell fighter packs with one strategic pick.

That makes sense; I was just trying to think of an example of a reason that would have reflected negatively on Square-Enix (which would presumably be why they wouldn't have said anything). The unfortunate thing is we don't know the details about which company's responsible for that decision.

 

[Firox]

That makes sense; I was just trying to think of an example of a reason that would have reflected negatively on Square-Enix (which would presumably be why they wouldn't have said anything). The unfortunate thing is we don't know the details about which company's responsible for that decision.

See, this is exactly the issue. The reason we can't get any straight answers is because of all the corporate politics involved. Sakurai doesn't want to throw his bosses under the bus if Nintendo is at fault, and Nintendo doesn't want to throw SE under the bus if they can squeeze more cash/cooperation out of them. There's always the probability that Sakurai, despite his own words, actually decided against Geno but doesn't have the heart to tell fans that he gave them the middle finger (frankly, I still think PP is a strong argument for this theory). Unfortunately, I don't see any party even attempting to be candid until one of them no longer has a stake in Smash (i.e. Sakurai retiring).

 

[QQS]

On the flipside though, Sakurai did mention that he had been considering "One or two more fighters" once the DLC ended.

really Buddy? Sakurai did say that before? More fighters after FP2?

I just know that he said no more DLC after CP11 in Kazuya Pres.

 

[Shroob]

really Buddy? Sakurai did say that before? More fighters after FP2?

I just know that he said no more DLC after CP11 in Kazuya Pres.

No, in regards to fighter's pass 1. Sorry, should have clarified that better.

 

[QQS]

No, in regards to fighter's pass 1. Sorry, should have clarified that better.

oh yes, i see. No problem!

 

[Icewolff92]

See, this is exactly the issue. The reason we can't get any straight answers is because of all the corporate politics involved. Sakurai doesn't want to throw his bosses under the bus if Nintendo is at fault, and Nintendo doesn't want to throw SE under the bus if they can squeeze more cash/cooperation out of them. There's always the probability that Sakurai, despite his own words, actually decided against Geno but doesn't have the heart to tell fans that he gave them the middle finger (frankly, I still think PP is a strong argument for this theory). Unfortunately, I don't see any party even attempting to be candid until one of them no longer has a stake in Smash (i.e. Sakurai retiring).

Pirana Plant has since pointing towards that he was first meant as a base game character that they didn´t manage to finish in time to release. Plus, there is always a WTF character. Do I need to remind you of Jiggly Puff, Mr Game & Watch, R.O.B and Duck Hunt do

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pirana Plant has since pointing towards that he was first meant as a base game character that they didn´t manage to finish in time to release. Plus, there is always a WTF character. Do I need to remind you of Jiggly Puff, Mr Game & Watch, R.O.B and Duck Hunt do

Not really. It was still pointed towards being a DLC character. Too much of it is actually very weak evidence that doesn't hold up to scrutiny;

• The amiibo is already listed after all the base game characters. It's right before Joker, no one else. If it was base game, it'd be listed before the Third Parties, or at least be among the actual base game characters earlier on.
• Whether it was base game or not, the Spirit would've been changed. It doesn't point to anything.
• The data we found of it was well after DLC was treated as a thing happening. It can't be used as any real evidence towards base game.
• Unless you can confirm Palutena's Guidance was done wayyyyyyyy earlier than July 2017, it's not actual evidence. It's bias only based upon loose information. We know for a fact that it(PP) was worked on before the game went Gold. That doesn't mean it's base game. That means it was decided upon before base game was done. That's all it proves.
  • Mewtwo was also worked on during base game heavily, and still got a DLC-specific Guidance. That at least shows it was done wayyyyyyyyyy earlier. We don't have anything clear in this case cause it doesn't really work that way. The Guidance had around 3 years to be worked on. ...There's no real evidence it was done super early on. Now, if that ever comes up(knowing when it was done), that's the only actual thing that could be legit ironclad, as the rest require stretching to make it fit someone else's personal bias only.
• I shouldn't need to go over how ridiculous the Greninja thing is honestly. No, its Classic route means nothing. If they were strapped for finding a Grass-like replacement, why didn't they choose Pikmin & Olimar, who fits it just as well as PP or Ivysaur? Or Peach. Or Daisy. Etc. They didn't lack choices. The best it points to is there never was a replacement because PP just wasn't there. It even follows a pretty clear pattern; one 1 VS 1 fight, two 1 VS 2 fights, and three 1 VS 3 fights. It still makes sense here. It doesn't remotely stand out at all.
• amiibo release dates all over the place. PP is a bonus DLC-only character. It's also full 1st paty(not owned by multiple companies)so came out really fast to coincide with the release, to get people to buy the game even faster. It's just business timing and nothing more to it than that. The timing even works out, since the earliest is July 2017 to have it become a DLC character. That's enough time to get an amiibo done. Pokemon tend to take longer due to being three companies, only one of which is Nintendo(the other two are 3rd party by all means).
• DLC was decided upon July 2017 as a concept. That's about a year and a half to work on PP itself. As well as decide it. Nothing suggests this window is strange at all.
• Because it was announced before the game released, of course Sakurai would talk about it with the actual base game characters at the same time(and didn't even talk about everyone either). This I don't think was ever once used as any evidence, but it's very very weak and means nothing at all. PP released like, what, two months after base game? That was an understandable window to talk about it. He often talks about the DLC characters beyond that in a combination of them or separately. It at least was convenient timing for the article.

Now, if we didn't know the July 2017 DLC confirmation date? This information would be more notable. But as it is, there's nothing that actually points to base. Just decent theories that aren't remotely ironclad.

See, this is exactly the issue. The reason we can't get any straight answers is because of all the corporate politics involved. Sakurai doesn't want to throw his bosses under the bus if Nintendo is at fault, and Nintendo doesn't want to throw SE under the bus if they can squeeze more cash/cooperation out of them. There's always the probability that Sakurai, despite his own words, actually decided against Geno but doesn't have the heart to tell fans that he gave them the middle finger (frankly, I still think PP is a strong argument for this theory). Unfortunately, I don't see any party even attempting to be candid until one of them no longer has a stake in Smash (i.e. Sakurai retiring).

I don't see how PP, who is explicitly not a heroic character or a major character, could've been chosen over Geno, who fits both of those.

Don't get me wrong, we both agree it was clearly a DLC only character if your Like towards my post means anything.

I mean, I'd rather have Geno as a bonus myself. But whether or not PP was something among multiple mooks for choices or it was PP or nothing, Geno sadly wasn't in the cards.

Nonetheless, indeed. Sakurai has to keep his lips sealed. He can at best say "didn't work out", and only in some circumstances. He's very careful nowadays since his words have massive clout. When SE wasn't working with Nintendo anymore, he still barely said much at all during the Brawl era. Sakurai never bad mouths companies in any way, and that's a good thing. That's not so much PR as common sense.

(Incidentally, your Like may not be warranted for the second half of this overall post).

 

[kiteinthesky]

I'm thinking the problem is that Square doesn't see Geno as relevant and would rather promote characters from decidedly more popular and well-known IPs like, well, Final Fantasy. And we know that's silly given Geno's cult status, but I have to admit that the relevancy problem is a real hurdle we have to overcome. And the real problem is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Companies won't put Geno in games because they don't see him as relevant, but he's not relevant in the eyes of others because he's not put into games.

It will really take some fresh, new blood getting into positions of power at Square to really bring about some positive change with respect to Geno and other IPs that they've let sit in the dust. In the meantime, we can always just hijack the character for ourselves and make our own fandom out of him, like I said before. Our actions have always been the catalyst needed to make any progress on the matter so why would that change now?

 

[bardbowman]

Hey everyone! I was a frequent stalker and infrequent poster in the old Geno Thread, so I’m really glad to see several familiar faces here.

When do you guys think Sakurai and Co decided to go with Kazuya instead of Heihachi as a fighter? It seemed pretty clear that the main reason they didn’t go with Heihachi was because he lacked the Devil Gene, which helped integrate Kazuya into Smash from a game mechanics standpoint.

Notice too that Sakurai didn’t say the main reason for not including Heihachi was because “he was already included in the game as a Mii Costume.” Of course, if all of this was decided before they decided to make Heihachi a Mii, then it doesn’t mean anything. But if that decision came after he was already a Mii, then it could mean that certain Mii Costumes aren’t necessarily excluded from becoming a fighter.

 

[Icewolff92]

Hey everyone! I was a frequent stalker and infrequent poster in the old Geno Thread, so I’m really glad to see several familiar faces here.

When do you guys think Sakurai and Co decided to go with Kazuya instead of Heihachi as a fighter? It seemed pretty clear that the main reason they didn’t go with Heihachi was because he lacked the Devil Gene, which helped integrate Kazuya into Smash from a game mechanics standpoint.

Notice too that Sakurai didn’t say the main reason for not including Heihachi was because “he was already included in the game as a Mii Costume.” Of course, if all of this was decided before they decided to make Heihachi a Mii, then it doesn’t mean anything. But if that decision came after he was already a Mii, then it could mean that certain Mii Costumes aren’t necessarily excluded from becoming a fighter.

I think they decided prior to if the MII costume would arrive or not.

 

[Firox]

I don't see how PP, who is explicitly not a heroic character or a major character, could've been chosen over Geno, who fits both of those.

Don't get me wrong, we both agree it was clearly a DLC only character if your Like towards my post means anything.

I mean, I'd rather have Geno as a bonus myself. But whether or not PP was something among multiple mooks for choices or it was PP or nothing, Geno sadly wasn't in the cards.

Nonetheless, indeed. Sakurai has to keep his lips sealed. He can at best say "didn't work out", and only in some circumstances. He's very careful nowadays since his words have massive clout. When SE wasn't working with Nintendo anymore, he still barely said much at all during the Brawl era. Sakurai never bad mouths companies in any way, and that's a good thing. That's not so much PR as common sense.

(Incidentally, your Like may not be warranted for the second half of this overall post).

Lol You are correct that my Like was not specifically intended for your direct response to me, but rather your assessment of PP as a DLC character. That said, I don't believe we have any evidence to support that PP's inclusion was a corporate Nintendo decision, but rather Sakurai's own personal decision which I think I remember him saying he did for the sake of originality (ie the "WTF" character for Ultimate). If PP was in fact Sakurai's decision, this hurts my perception Sakurai has for Geno on the premise that:

-A generic Mario bad guy was not only more desirable to him than Geno, but also a myriad of more iconic characters (or even more interesting Mario bad guys, generic or otherwise)

-Unlike the other DLC picks, Sakurai can't hide behind corporate decision making for backlash on the pick.

-If a WTF character is so crucial for him to make, why would Geno not also qualify as a WTF pick, if not also a highly requested one? (unless the entire purpose of WTF characters is that they AREN'T requested, but by this logic, it kind of seems like a deliberate middle finger to the fans)

Then again, I suppose we don't really know the exact selection process for new characters and there could very well be push back from Nintendo and/or SE that bars Geno from ever getting in. At the end of the day, I'm right back to the question, is there even a point in campaigning anymore? Do we even have a chance? Cause if not, I'd at least like to know so that can stop wasting my time and effort.

I'm thinking the problem is that Square doesn't see Geno as relevant and would rather promote characters from decidedly more popular and well-known IPs like, well, Final Fantasy. And we know that's silly given Geno's cult status, but I have to admit that the relevancy problem is a real hurdle we have to overcome. And the real problem is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Companies won't put Geno in games because they don't see him as relevant, but he's not relevant in the eyes of others because he's not put into games.

It will really take some fresh, new blood getting into positions of power at Square to really bring about some positive change with respect to Geno and other IPs that they've let sit in the dust. In the meantime, we can always just hijack the character for ourselves and make our own fandom out of him, like I said before. Our actions have always been the catalyst needed to make any progress on the matter so why would that change now?

I guess if we really want to revive Geno, we'll have to do what so many others have resorted to.....make a generic knockoff SMRPG game with one of the GoFundMe sites using a close likeness of Geno to show SE that if they want to be a bunch of stingy FF-pandering cheap skates, then we'll revive the puppet boy with or without them.

 

[SSGuy]

I guess if we really want to revive Geno, we'll have to do what so many others have resorted to.....make a generic knockoff SMRPG game with one of the GoFundMe sites using a close likeness of Geno to show SE that if they want to be a bunch of stingy FF-pandering cheap skates, then we'll revive the puppet boy with or without them.

There is a spiritual successor of Super Mario RPG that is currently in development. They had a successful kickstarter and is working on making a game that is heavily inspired by Super Mario RPG.

I even bug reported for one of their really early alpha builds

I have provided the link below:

Kickerstarter Link for "Another Crusade" (Includes playable demo)

 

[Firox]

There is a spiritual successor of Super Mario RPG that is currently in development. They had a successful kickstarter and is working on making a game that is heavily inspired by Super Mario RPG.

I even bug reported for one of their really early alpha builds

I have provided the link below:

Kickerstarter Link for "Another Crusade" (Includes playable demo)

View attachment 321229

Whoa, this looks cool! This could not only give SE a wake-up slap, but Nintendo as well! Paper Mario is all well and good, but it would be nice to show Nintendo that the traditional RPG format still has clout!

 

[SSGuy]

Whoa, this looks cool! This could not only give SE a wake-up slap, but Nintendo as well! Paper Mario is all well and good, but it would be nice to show Nintendo that the traditional RPG format still has clout!

Honestly, I thought this game was more known within the SMRPG fandom but better late than never to come across this!

Stuff like this is usually really great. Normally I'd get games like this for Steam but I'm going to get this game specifically for Switch just to spite Nintendo lol

 

[Icewolff92]

Whoa, this looks cool! This could not only give SE a wake-up slap, but Nintendo as well! Paper Mario is all well and good, but it would be nice to show Nintendo that the traditional RPG format still has clout!

How would it be a wake-up slap for Square Enix, considering they recently put out Octapath traveler?

 

[SSGuy]

How would it be a wake-up slap for Square Enix, considering they recently put out Octapath traveler?

It wouldn't be a direct one or one that Nintendo financially feels but dang it, it's the principal of the matter you know? lol

I want quality Mario RPG, so I'm gonna have a quality Mario RPGesque game in my library

 

[Firox]

It wouldn't be a direct one or one that Nintendo financially feels but dang it, it's the principal of the matter you know? lol

I want quality Mario RPG, so I'm gonna have a quality Mario RPGesque game in my library

Exactly.

(Joker voice): "It's not about the money...it's about sending a message."

 

[Icewolff92]

It wouldn't be a direct one or one that Nintendo financially feels but dang it, it's the principal of the matter you know? lol

I want quality Mario RPG, so I'm gonna have a quality Mario RPGesque game in my library

Again, I´m not arguing about"take the hint Nintendo"... its the Square part I question considering Square are still doing traditional turn-based RPGs

 

[Firox]

Again, I´m not arguing about"take the hint Nintendo"... its the Square part I question considering Square are still doing traditional turn-based RPGs

In the case of SE, I don't think the target message is "traditional RPGs can still work". That's more of the message for Nintendo. For SE, the target message is "People still like Geno, dorks. USE HIM AGAIN."

 

[Icewolff92]

In the case of SE, I don't think the target message is "traditional RPGs can still work". That's more of the message for Nintendo. For SE, the target message is "People still like Geno, dorks. USE HIM AGAIN."

Even though I would love for them to use Geno again, all I can think of is the whole Kid Icarus Uprising situation. There were so many people that were vocal about how a new installment would sell gangbuster. While it might not super bomb, it certainly sold way less than what people claimed it would be. Metroid, which people have claimed to be one of the biggest franchises, has only 2 games that have crossed a million copies sold mark. Granted, Samus Returns arrived on 3DS at the beginning of Switch lifecycle... but it is still one of the worst-selling in the franchise. Nintendo fans in particular are a prime example of bark with no bite.. I wouldn´t be that surprised if the 3rd party costumes who have all returned now were to test the water and see if anyone of them was truly worth consider for the base game/DLC for Ultimate.

The best chance we have for them to use him again would be if Square & Nintendo put the OG on Switch with some quality of life improvement and maybe some small update within the visuals, for then see how the sales figures truly would be before they consider a sequel or not. I mean, just look at Advance Wars. What did they do? They had Wayforward remake the first two in such a simplistic way that it more then likely cost next to nothing

 

[Firox]

Even though I would love for them to use Geno again, all I can think of is the whole Kid Icarus Uprising situation. There were so many people that were vocal about how a new installment would sell gangbuster. While it might not super bomb, it certainly sold way less than what people claimed it would be. Metroid, which people have claimed to be one of the biggest franchises, has only 2 games that have crossed a million copies sold mark. Granted, Samus Returns arrived on 3DS at the beginning of Switch lifecycle... but it is still one of the worst-selling in the franchise. Nintendo fans in particular are a prime example of bark with no bite.. I wouldn´t be that surprised if the 3rd party costumes who have all returned now were to test the water and see if anyone of them was truly worth consider for the base game/DLC for Ultimate.

The best chance we have for them to use him again would be if Square & Nintendo put the OG on Switch with some quality of life improvement and maybe some small update within the visuals, for then see how the sales figures truly would be before they consider a sequel or not. I mean, just look at Advance Wars. What did they do? They had Wayforward remake the first two in such a simplistic way that it more then likely cost next to nothing

To be fair, I think Kid Icarus is a fairly different comparison. Firstly, I played the game and absolutely loved it. The action, story and voice acting was surprisingly good. On the flip side, part of what may have crippled its sales is:

A) The gameplay formula for Uprising was vastly different from the original retro game, hence it may have turned off those that were looking for a 1-to-1 revival.

B) The awkward control scheme of the 3DS was very uncomfortable and was a very real threat of Repetitive Strain Injury. This was some questionable game design on Sakurai's part, but it is what it is.

In short, I think an HD Remake or sequel of SMRPG would be far more successful due to the magic of having "Mario" in the title and the fact that a traditional RPG (or even action RPG hybrid) is closer to the source material than Uprising was to the Kid Icarus franchise.

 

[Icewolff92]

To be fair, I think Kid Icarus is a fairly different comparison. Firstly, I played the game and absolutely loved it. The action, story and voice acting was surprisingly good. On the flip side, part of what may have crippled its sales is:

A) The gameplay formula for Uprising was vastly different from the original retro game, hence it may have turned off those that were looking for a 1-to-1 revival.

B) The awkward control scheme of the 3DS was very uncomfortable and was a very real threat of Repetitive Strain Injury. This was some questionable game design on Sakurai's part, but it is what it is.

In short, I think an HD Remake or sequel of SMRPG would be far more successful due to the magic of having "Mario" in the title and the fact that a traditional RPG (or even action RPG hybrid) is closer to the source material than Uprising was to the Kid Icarus franchise.

I know.. I have played the game, and I do love it. But that doesn´t change the fact that it did underperform. But anyway... what about the Metroid franchise which, with the exception of the original Metroid and Original Prime has never crossed over 1 million? What about the F-Zero GX franchisee who sold worse and worse? Likewise with Golden Sun which never saw an upwards in sales? Hell, Fire Emblem sold piss poor pre-awakening to the point that Awakening would have been the last in the franchise if it weren´t for its sales figure... and it took them going more into the whole idea of the "shipping" market that made it more successful which has caused the fanbase to be extremely split (speaking as someone that find enjoyment in every FE title, even though I think 1-5 has aged horribly)

 

[Firox]

I know.. I have played the game, and I do love it. But that doesn´t change the fact that it did underperform. But anyway... what about the Metroid franchise which, with the exception of the original Metroid and Original Prime has never crossed over 1 million? What about the F-Zero GX franchisee who sold worse and worse? Likewise with Golden Sun which never saw an upwards in sales? Hell, Fire Emblem sold piss poor pre-awakening to the point that Awakening would have been the last in the franchise if it weren´t for its sales figure... and it took them going more into the whole idea of the "shipping" market that made it more successful which has caused the fanbase to be extremely split (speaking as someone that find enjoyment in every FE title, even though I think 1-5 has aged horribly)

You can't really use fiscal success as a measurement for Smash eligibility. Think about it, you're saying that F-Zero and Metroid sold badly, yet both Samus and Captain Falcon are still in Smash. When it comes to video game popularity, there are a lot of examples of cult classics that get a huge following despite having a lack luster performance. Ness and Lucas fall into this category as well. Even if a SMRPG remake or sequel were to underperform, the mere exposure of Geno to a modern audience would do wonders for his relevance.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lol You are correct that my Like was not specifically intended for your direct response to me, but rather your assessment of PP as a DLC character. That said, I don't believe we have any evidence to support that PP's inclusion was a corporate Nintendo decision, but rather Sakurai's own personal decision which I think I remember him saying he did for the sake of originality (ie the "WTF" character for Ultimate). If PP was in fact Sakurai's decision, this hurts my perception Sakurai has for Geno on the premise that:

-A generic Mario bad guy was not only more desirable to him than Geno, but also a myriad of more iconic characters (or even more interesting Mario bad guys, generic or otherwise)

-Unlike the other DLC picks, Sakurai can't hide behind corporate decision making for backlash on the pick.

-If a WTF character is so crucial for him to make, why would Geno not also qualify as a WTF pick, if not also a highly requested one? (unless the entire purpose of WTF characters is that they AREN'T requested, but by this logic, it kind of seems like a deliberate middle finger to the fans)

Then again, I suppose we don't really know the exact selection process for new characters and there could very well be push back from Nintendo and/or SE that bars Geno from ever getting in. At the end of the day, I'm right back to the question, is there even a point in campaigning anymore? Do we even have a chance? Cause if not, I'd at least like to know so that can stop wasting my time and effort.

I probably didn't read your earlier post very carefully. That said, yeah, Sakurai can't hide behind that for PP. He wholesale chose that DLC. The rest are on Nintendo. I doubt he could've justified an easy Bonus Character unless they were first party or Nintendo partially owned them(which fit PP and Mewtwo specifically, in that order respectively).

I don't think the idea was simply WTF. It's like he said; not a major character and not a heroic character. That usually applies to Mooks. Geno would've been great, but that requires a lot of extra licensing. Him getting a Spirit this time around is probably the best he could do.

A good point was brought up about relevance. There's no denying that Geno is basically unused, not even slightly in marketing(the only real advantage B&K has. Well, a consistent re-release technically too, but they're in the spotlight/promoted), which gives a slight advantage towards a company willing to license out the character for bigger stuff. The costume in itself is not small by any means like a Spirit is, which is still good, but not good enough, of course.

If SMRPG was coming to the Switch, things might be a bit different. SE in this case would be more than willing to have the character used more often. The fact there was a struggle to get a re-release in general for Download on a console or even the SNES Mini shows how little SE really cares for the particular game. It doesn't help that despite owning the characters, it's not really their world to work with. It's a Nintendo world. This means that it's not much of their own unique stuff that would be getting love. There could be other licensing stuff like how different people own different songs and designs too, that make it more difficult to work with. It'll never probably be revealed why they don't attempt to do much with it, though the fact it's a Mario character means Nintendo always has to be a part of it. This might be the simple reason why; it's a pain to get both together unless there's a severe amount of fan requests, and they're super damn sure(both companies, not just one) it'll easily sell. Mario in itself sells, sure, but Turn-Based RPG's are not as popular as they used to be. Coupled with Paper Mario not doing so hot, and it might not be the best time to strike. There's also things like not being sure how to continue the series(SMRPG2 pretty much fell wayside and became Paper Mario. So what can you do with the ideas now?). I'm sure they can make a grand sequel that'll do well, but are they sure they can pull it off? Us having faith in them isn't going to help if they aren't sure on it.

For a caveat, you've seen many series die like F-Zero. The reason it's not revived is they can't think of something that'll make it fun and accessible, and something that Mario Kart couldn't also do. The extreme speed makes it very difficult to win, even for very good players, so the game can be difficult for some to get into. It's not a beginner friendly game. That makes it harder to revive as is. They can't rely on just a vocal minority saying it should come back. They have to be sure it's worth spending money on to get it revived. You can apply that to a lot of franchises, really. It's simple and a generic way to say it, but it's always about business. Incidentally, SMRPG2 would do better than F-Zero sales-wise by virtue of being Mario.

 

[Icewolff92]

You can't really use fiscal success as a measurement for Smash eligibility. Think about it, you're saying that F-Zero and Metroid sold badly, yet both Samus and Captain Falcon are still in Smash. When it comes to video game popularity, there are a lot of examples of cult classics that get a huge following despite having a lack luster performance. Ness and Lucas fall into this category as well. Even if a SMRPG remake or sequel were to underperform, the mere exposure of Geno to a modern audience would do wonders for his relevance.

I know that they are still in, and that´s not my point. You were talking about how stuff like the Kickstarter project that SSGuy linked should be a hint to Nintendo that they should do more official stuff with the SMRPG franchise. Yes, even if it underperforms, it would give more exposure to Geno which would be wonderful. But Nintendo is a company like any other, and if they don´t see any financial benefits to do more with the SMRPG genre, they, unfortunately, won´t do anything. I mean, they didn´t see the Mario + Luigi franchise worth enough to save Alphadream, and the sales figures for Paper Mario after it went away from its RPG routes, started to sell even better. Heck Oragami King is the best selling in the entire franchise. Granted, I do believe that they grabbed the developers from Alpha Dream if I´m not mistaken but that could just mean more manpower to the likes of BOTW2, that supposed DK game, or helping Hal on with Kirby.

Like I said previously... if it came out 5-10 years from now that Geno didn´t get in Ultimate because not enough people bought the DLC costume in Smash WiiU/3DS, I unfortunately would not be surprised.