Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[Tickle Me Trotsky]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1. Sora, I think? I still wonder how that would work out.
2. and and for to make a return
3. I love Sm4sh Roy so, so much. He was my early Melee main and I was so happy with how they reworked him, to the point where he's my secondary nowadays.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Now that Indivisible's on their way to getting the funding they needed (they're at 98% of their goal as I type this), I'm ready to support a new character as an indie representative:

Don't care how unlikely she is, Ajna in Smash would get me hyped af.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1: Diddy Kong, obviously.
2: Diddy Kong, Ike, Mewtwo, Toon Link, Lucas, Meta Knight, Wario
3: Am a loyal Diddy main, he's amazing to play with and suits my play style extremely well.

Hmm. A human Pokémon character would be certainly interesting... but I have no idea how it would work.

Literally nothing else will do.

 

[Aetheri]

Mewtwo and Sonic though

Who?

LoZ and Pokemon and Mario discussion?

Midna and Gardevoir for Smash!
and let's throw Toad with a Captain Toad alt in the mix!
No? Anyone? ok


*Oni's signature hatred for "reps" rant goes here*

I agree with at least one of the three....(though Gardevoir would be amazing as well)

 

[A Distant Demon]

Now that Indivisible's on their way to getting the funding they needed (they're at 98% of their goal as I type this), I'm ready to support a new character as an indie representative:

Don't care how unlikely she is, Ajna in Smash would get me hyped af.

Bro I made a thread for her ages ago
http://smashboards.com/threads/inex...ndivisible-ajna-support-the-indiegogo.423475/
It was totally an attempt to get every ounce of advertisement out as I could so it got funded but that is besides the point. . .
I would finally get a spear user so that is nice.

Zebei assist trophy when?
everyone in the nintenzone thread is sick of this game with how much I advertised it so they would fund it.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

A good ol questionnaire by the cool Speedwagon!

1: If there was a first character I wanted... I guess you could say Wario in Brawl, considering how happy I was to see him in the first trailer at Toys R Us all those years ago.

2: For Super Smash Bros 4 - my most wanted list initially included Shulk, Little Mac, Roy, Chrom, Wonder Red, Palutena, Isaac. (It wasn't really finalised but those characters I wanted the most.) Quite a number of them got into Smash Bros, though I don't see Wonder Red happening anymore but he would inspire 'Wonderful' levels of hype in me. Robin being chosen over Chrom was the reason why I found Smashboards.

I knew Little Mac would be one of the ones to make the most sense for a promotion to a playable character, and if he did, then so should Isaac. We're still waiting, us Adepts, but the Golden Sun will rise. Roy was my most wanted overall, and I'm glad Our Boy is back. Shulk I could easily picture being fought during Classic Mode, Palutena was a given... So quite a few of my initial most wanted made it in, some of them eventually. (Roy and Mewtwo)

3: I'm satisfied with how my most wanted were handled, especially Roy. He brings both nostalgia and new techniques and is overall a much better character.

Yeah, that was just a shoehorned ending to this post since I've heard about the conclusion of Project M. Can't say I was a fan of PM, nor did I really have any sense of desire to play it, and it didn't help that the whole process of downloading the mod seems very convoluted and there was no PAL version so I couldn't experience it for myself. Sayonara, Project M - may the creative minds behind your creation continue to create new forms of creative and competitive enjoyment.

 

[Ura]

Looks like something from Avatar lol.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Wiley]

So smash broadcast is coming soon, the PMDT disbanded, and there's server maintenance right now.

I stopped back in here to check what the maintenance was and see if anyone else thought the same. But I'm definitely not getting my hopes up again until it's in my face from them. I've fallen trap so many times down this road through my hopes. So I expect nothing from this but will flip out if it's related and it's around the corner.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

RIP project M. . .

Wait did something happen?

 

[A Distant Demon]

Wait did something happen?

http://projectmgame.com/en/

TLDR Project M can no longer be downloaded from the source. All Upcoming updates are cancelled.

I would go into mroe detail but it's ~2am and it's already off topic.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

http://projectmgame.com/en/

TLDR Project M can no longer be downloaded from the source. All Upcoming updates are cancelled.

I would go into mroe detail but it's ~2am and it's already off topic.

I suspect foul play, its one thing to stop development on a game, its another to just stop development and prevent people from getting it.

 

[Ura]

My gut feeling is Nintendo either C&D'd them or they bribed them lots of $$$ to stop PM development and remove all their content from their site.

Either or, it's a really crappy situation. Good thing I have almost every version of PM.

 

[IsmaR]

All of the PM talk should be posted here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/projet-m-development-has-come-to-an-end.424881/

Further discussion here will be treated as off topic

 

[pupNapoleon]

Regardless of being 'proper representation' or not, which is a subjective opinion, the ways in which Pokemon is represented defy how any other series is represented in Smash Bros. Thus far, this is all fact.

Many believe random assortments of popular Pokemon due the trick- but I suggest this claim is ridiculous, that it is in fact possible to represent the franchise, despite its large number of characters, by focusing on what makes the series what it happens to be.

We absolutely cannot add everyones favorite Pokemon, or even most of them, so that goal is immediately futile.
Instead, we could focus on making it feel as though the world of Pokemon is in smash bros, not just the characters. I postulate this is an achievable goal, and that it cannot be done just by adding the 'popular Pokemon' and calling it a day.

First off, Jigglypuff is supposed to be seen as a balloon. It is called the "Balloon Pokemon" after all. I guess they may not have hinted that very well in anime, but I think its move set makes sense. Heck, it even has Sing, which Jigglypuff is known for. I think they represented Jigglypuff quite well.

Jigglypuff, species: Balloon. Mewtwo, species: Genetic. Charizard, species: Flame. Ivysaur, species: seed. Greninja, species: ninja.
You're telling me it only matters for two? The species of Pokemon doesn't make any sense anyway, but if the only canonical ability of Sakurai is to take ninja and balloon, then the others should have been represented equally. Mewtwo's species is not even a noun.

And by the by: Pokemon is not the only franchise where only new and relevant characters are added. Fire Emblem suffers from that problem too. Yes, we ended up getting Roy, a classic character for DLC, but he ended up getting in the game due to fan demand just like Mewtwo.The only franchises in Smash I know that get characters regardless of relevancy are Kirby, Mario and Zelda, mostly because they have a lot of reoccurring and popular characters.

It is the only franchise that only, solely, cares about popularity. Fire Emblem adds more than just new and relevant characters- they add the main characters of the games- the only case where they arguably didn't is Robin, and this was stated to add the 'essence' of the series, which the Pokemon alone do not do for it. I'm not sure where you get relevancy from, you brought up the point. There are plenty of characters relevant to Pokemon, that are not simply popular. All the ones we get are just a hodgepodge of popularity.

The reason why Pokemon is the only game in Smash that does not have the "protagonist" playable, is because the protagonist is actually not that important to the Pokemon series. The Pokemon Trainer serves as an avatar for the player, and while he is kind of important to the Pokemon universe, he is ultimately not as important as the Pokemon. I mean, the game is titled Pokemon, not Pokemon and Humans. Sakurai did like the Pokemon Trainer idea at some point; if he didn't, then why did he add him in Brawl? It turns out though, he didn't find the idea as amazingly executed as he thought it was, so he scrapped him for Smash 4.

Pokemon may be the name of the franchise, but that doesn't mean that all thats important are the Pokemon. Zelda isn't the prominent character in her series. Even more so, the closest game in regard to Pokemon (hundreds of characters, one main avatar) is Animal Crossing. That is a game named after the other characters of whom you do not play as, yet the remedy for that series is to JUST add the protagonist.

Besides that, yes... the Trainer is the vehicle of the entire story. Pokemon are the point of the franchise- and that is why we have tons of spinoffs without a trainer. Yet, in the base game, the trainer is CRUCIAL, and the mechanics of catching and training Pokemon, strategizing a team, are all about the trainer. The journey the player goes through is as an actual person, personified in the avatar trainer. Most of the Pokemon are even marginalized- captured and stored in a box forever to be 'completed,' and otherwise disregarded in their game.
The pokemon are very important to the game, absolutely, but the Trainer is a crucial part to how the game plays. Pokemon without the trainer is Mystery Dungeon. That's an entirely different game.

Don't get me wrong; I think the Pokemon Trainer is important enough to the Pokemon series to be added in Smash. Again, even though the Pokemon Trainer is not as important as the Pokemon, they are important enough to receive some sort of recognition. However, Sakurai tried to incorporate him; it didn't work out, so it's just something that we have to deal with. :/ At least there are several Pokemon Trainer trophies in Smash, like the X and Y trainers and Prof. Sycamore. It's better than nothing, I would say.

Also, what do you mean by Sakurai "making it up?" You do know that Sakurai has "made up" move sets before, right? He made up Wii Fit Trainer, Captain Falcon and Fox completely from scratch, despite the characters not having any sort of hand-to-hand combat in any of their games. Does that mean they're not represented well by your logic? I'm curious.

He made up Captain Falcon and Fox... Wii Fit trainer does yoga, which the character coaches you through. Fox uses weapons that his ship does. Falcon is the only one you listed whom he actually made up a moveset for moreso than any other character. My point was that Greninja was not based on the games, it was based on a sketch. That's it. The character we have in the game is based on a sketch. This is inherently, explicitly, a non-attempt to actually represent the character. He said himself (and only for Greninja, as far as I'm aware, no one else), that he based a moveset on a picture. If you think this is 'properly representing the character,' then be my guest to back it up.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1. King K. Rool
2. Only Mega Man, Bowser Jr. and Mewtwo.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1. Actually had two I wanted after playing Smash 64; Toad and Meowth. Neither are in 15 years on. Tsk.
2. (figured he was a no hoper though, oh the irony)(his return)
3. Still waiting on Toad(and Meowth). *Grumble grumble*
For those who got in though;
Bowser was initially disappointing until Sm4sh. Now he's fun to play as and I don't feel like a totally helpless punchbag. Satisfied now.
Wario bike was fun, but overall he was disappointing. Not sure why, can't place my finger on it.
Diddy is decent enough. Not really my favourite, but he's very solid.
Pac-Man is as fun and crazy as I was hoping. Totally satisfied.
Robin would be great if he wasn't so hopelessly pathetically slow.
Duck Hunt is just fun to play as. I don't even aim to win with him, he's just fun. Totally satisfied.
Ludwig's really fun. I wish the Koopalings had a little more kill power on some of their moves though. Almost satisfied.
Roy's a beast. He far outstripped my expectations of his return. So satisfying.

-------

Edit: And lol, Toad not being an All Star?
Not sure if the Toad hate is still strong, or if people are genuinely blind.
Guys more well known than most wishlist characters I see on a regular basis.

Is Toad the LAST All Star? No. He's probably the most famous non playable Nintendo star at this point though.
I'd argue Dixie's pretty up there alongside the more iconic Pokemon, but Toad who has an Amiibo, is world wide recognised, has had TWO games belonging to himself in Captain Toad and the confusing titled Wario's Woods(Toad's the playable star here), tons of merchandise showcasing him and is recognised at least even by non Nintendo fans as being a Mario character holds significant star power.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

I want Fierce Deity Link in smash so badly. He'd be the best Loz rep imo besides Midna

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wonder how radically speculative community's opinion of Midna will shift if she cameos in Zelda Wii U.

I've been wondering if this will happen as the Wolf Link and Midna amiibo is confirmed to relate to Zelda Wii U in some way...which is really random if neither character is in the game.

Expect Midna to be like one of the most highly requested characters (probably within the top 10) for Smash among the Smash fanbase if she ends up in Zelda Wii U and continues to be a major character from that point. Considering that she is a well-received and popular character within her own franchise and comes from one of the biggest franchises Nintendo has (and one many believes should have gotten a newcomer character), well... let's just say those are favourable combinations.

Actually, going off the poll data that I saw back then, Shulk was A LOT more requested than Robin or Rosalina.

Rosalina requests only started getting big after her confirmation as a playable character in 3D World. Robin picked up steam after Rosalina's confirmation for Smash due to increasing confidence that he could be picked over Chrom due to diversity.

Edit: And lol, Toad not being an All Star?
Not sure if the Toad hate is still strong, or if people are genuinely blind.
Guys more well known than most wishlist characters I see on a regular basis.

"Toad's an All-Star? They're the heroic version of Goombas!"

*In a hypothetical scenario where Toad ends up as a playable Smash character*

"Well, of course he makes sense, Toad's an Nintendo icon and one of Nintendo's more heavily promoted characters with tons of merchandise and exposure to casual gamers!"

 

[Arcadenik]

I still want Pokemon Trainer to come back... it does not have to be like in Brawl where you play as three Pokemon in a match.

Charizard could have Red in the background. Squirtle could have Blue in the background. Ivysaur could have Leaf in the background. This way, we get Pokemon Trainers represented in Smash but the Pokemon are still separate.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Sakurai doesnt care for represenration

I'd like to point out that this isn't true; Sakurai has said more than once how, to some extent, representation influences the decisions he makes. It's actually part of the reason a couple of newcomers () got in, the other reason being what the character would bring.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1: I think the first character I ever wanted was Sonic
2:
3: it's quite clear That what they did with Ridley was a waste of time and space and with Project M ending so suddenly the only good Ridley to ever grace a Smash game is gonna be going down too, Nintendo seriously hate him.
Lucina is also just a bit disappointing, I know she was a Marth costume and they made her a full character, but it's not like they didn't have the ability to make her a bit more different with custom moves

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still want Pokemon Trainer to come back... it does not have to be like in Brawl where you play as three Pokemon in a match.

Charizard could have Red in the background. Squirtle could have Blue in the background. Ivysaur could have Leaf in the background. This way, we get Pokemon Trainers represented in Smash but the Pokemon are still separate.

This is always why I liked the concept of evolution with the 3 most famous starter Pokémon ; Bulbasaur, Charmander and Squirtle and all their evolutions. Will never happen, but damn would it be awesome

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is always why I liked the concept of evolution with the 3 most famous starter Pokémon ; Bulbasaur, Charmander and Squirtle and all their evolutions. Will never happen, but damn would it be awesome

Could be interesting in a later game, although I feel a Digimon would be better for the concept since they're known for evolving/de-evolving, as well as slide evolving. But yeah. What about a Pokemon with forme changes like Doexys instead?

 

[The Novice Sword]

Could be interesting in a later game, although I feel a Digimon would be better for the concept since they're known for evolving/de-evolving, as well as slide evolving. But yeah. What about a Pokemon with forme changes like Doexys instead?

Honestly, the digivolving mechanic is the only reason I've ever even slightly supported a Digimon in Smash. (Well, that and my inner child demands it)

With the loss of transformations I think its likely a pipe dream. And truth be told I was never super big on the transforming characters myself.

 

[Argos]

I think showing up all the way back in SMB (even becoming a well known joke "the Princess is in another castle" from that appearance) having multiple playable appearances, from SMB2 USA, the New SMB games, 3D world and a humongous amount of spinoffs, generally being prevalant in mario titles from 64 to sunshine and then having your own spinoff game show up as a full title (Captain Toad) pretty all while being under the umbrella of one of the biggest ideo game franchises of all time much guarantees Toad's spot as an all star

but that is just me.

Yeah, I don't think there's really any doubt that Toad is the most recognizable character to the general public yet tobe added, barring a couple of more recent additions like Isabelle and Inkling. I remember an ad in Japan (was able to find it again by searching 'hipster Bowser', ha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piaTT5DFltY) last year for the 3DS in general that featured what I can only assume are what they see as their most marketable and recognizable characters and the only two that weren't in Smash were Isabelle (assist trophy) and Toad.

Not that anyone has to support him or anything, but I have trouble thinking of anyone any other non-represented first party who has been as recognizable for as long a time.

EDIT to prevent double post: Pokemon is an odd series to represent because the actual fleshed-out characters (as fleshed-out as Pokemon characters are, anyway) in the main series are almost always humans but the only way they fight is through their Pokemon so they don't have as clear-cut a moveset as the (very popular!) Pokemon themselves. Recently I've gotten really fond of the idea of adding a Pokemon Trainer character who uses unrepresented Pokemon through summons along with just throwing Pokeballs at his opponent or something. Even better would be to have all the alts be different trainers from the games but I'm not going to press my luck.

 

[roymustang1990-]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1- That would be Charizard ever since the first smash game. My desire grew larger when I saw that he was a pokeball summon for melee.

2- I mostly desired Charizard for the longest time then Megaman and sonic as well as a bit of cloud strife. I hope ivysaur and squirtle re-join the roster as dlc In the future.

3- Pretty dissapointed with how charizard's play style turned out but I pretty much expected it since I knew the trend for big,heavy characters like him in fighting games and smash specifically usually end up with horrible frame data and mobility as well as being combo food for the better characters which forces charizard to be as defensive as possible.Underwhelming.

 

[Mobes]

I sense Wolf in the next Direct.

I mean

I don't really care much for him, but it would make sense if he was released with Cloud. Just sayin.

I think it's pretty certain we'll see another veteran getting released together with Cloud. Maybe even more, before requests kick in? It has happened before.

Wolf feels like the most probable, out of the remaining veterans. It's the one I want the most.

Snake feels like a iffy pick license-wise, but unless Konami wants to denounce everything Kojima Production's ever done, Konami must know that Metal Gear is still a valuable IP that they can use. I'd love it. Solid Snake'd be cool, but Big Boss (MGSV iteration) would be totally rad.

Ivysaur / Squirtle are both neat Pokémon, and I wouldn't mind any of them returning. There's just not that much excitement in me for them. Them returning together could be cool. Pokémon Trainer has absolute zero chance.

Pichu would be the most amazing pick, if the Smash 4 devs actually want the fanbase to crumble on their command. I'd love to watch that unfold... But no, it is probably not happening.

I guess someone will be excited over Young Link returning.. If it were to happen, it should've happen in conjunction with Majoras Mask 3DS.

Ice Climbers would be pretty neat to see come back. Having heard Sakurai talk about the 3DS performence being an issue for it's inclusion, it doesn't mean that there's absolutely no chance they figured it technically after release. I don't think a "new 3DS only" character is something Nintendo or the Smash Devs are interested in, neither if a retooled Ice Climbers is what I would want, but the devs will figure out if a scaled back Ice Climbers is an acceptable representation of the original idea, or if it is what it is.

 

[PushDustIn]

New Sakurai column on video game updates themselves.

He doesn't mention Smash directly, but it's still very interesting to see Sakurai's insights on this topic.

 

[ShadyClash]

It seems like Sakurai wants

1. All Smash veterans

2. Gamings greatest icons

Since this is his final Smash, it makes sense why he would be going for these. He wants to go out with a bang.

At this rate, I wouldn't bat an eye if Master Chief got in.

 

[DevaAshera]

I want to ask some questions to everybody.

1-¿What was the first character that you ever wanted for Smash?
2-Out of all the characters you have desired, ¿Which were the ones that joined the roster?
3-In case your most wanted character made it in, ¿Are you satisfied how it turned it out?

1) Hard to say..its probably since I was also a huge Sonic fan growing up even if Nintendo systems were my primary choice. Especially after Sonic games begun appearing on Nintendo consoles and then when Snake was announced for Super Smash Bros. Brawl and then after he was announced, I really wanted

2)

3) I'm honestly fairly satisfied with how they turned out for the most part. My only annoyances are not having Up Special since she used an attack just like it in Fire Emblem Awakening's cutscene where she fought her father and then not having enough of his moveset inspired by the Wario Land series instead of creating random moves for him.

I want Fierce Deity Link in smash so badly. He'd be the best Loz rep imo besides Midna

Honestly, as much as I love Fierce Deity Link, I think he'd be better included as the Final Smash for a revamped Young Link. I don't mean bringing back Young Link just as he was in Melee, I mean more like how he was depicted in Hyrule Warriors (only using the Great Fairy Sword rather then an oddly enlarged Kokiri Sword.

My reasoning for that is simple, Fierce Deity Link is amongst the strongest characters to ever appear in the Legend of Zelda series, probably stronger then even any boss that's ever appeared, so it would feel more 'right' to have him as a Final Smash transformation rather then 'weaken' him to be balanced with the other characters..and then he could also have his screen clearing Blade Beams intact.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I hope Cloud can equip dresses

 

[Lady Byakugan]

.


Honestly, as much as I love Fierce Deity Link, I think he'd be better included as the Final Smash for a revamped Young Link. I don't mean bringing back Young Link just as he was in Melee, I mean more like how he was depicted in Hyrule Warriors (only using the Great Fairy Sword rather then an oddly enlarged Kokiri Sword.

My reasoning for that is simple, Fierce Deity Link is amongst the strongest characters to ever appear in the Legend of Zelda series, probably stronger then even any boss that's ever appeared, so it would feel more 'right' to have him as a Final Smash transformation rather then 'weaken' him to be balanced with the other characters..and then he could also have his screen clearing Blade Beams intact.

Well, I see it differently. Take a look at and , arguably the two most powerful smashers in base form, yet they go up against characters like and, who aren't even legit fighters.

I don't really think would work as a clone, even if revamped, because that would give us three links. I mean, MAYBE if and Link were made to be more like and or like and, it could be possible, but for the most part, I feel like Toon Link does a well enough job representing a younger, more agile version of Link, and that a 2nd one would not be necassary.

The Fierce Deity himself is extremely popular despite making a big appearance in only one game, as he was featured in HW, TH, and even as one of Link's alts in Smash 4. So him appearing as a full playable character as opposed to simply a FS would be more appealing to the majority instead of people of getting a 3rd Link. I just think if the Zelda series is gonna get another version of Link, it can at least be more unique than or

 

[Fuun]

I know that personally I would like a representation of Paper Mario, but not as a clone though, instead with the paper folding curses from TTYD or maybe an FP system, like an up b some what like old up b, but with less to no damage and limited glide time, i would like them to include the partners in a way, if indeed he was included as dlc then instant main from me, BUT i can understand when people say there is too many Mario reps already, I can always hope

 

[CodeBlue_]

And lol, Toad not being an All Star?
Not sure if the Toad hate is still strong, or if people are genuinely blind.
Guys more well known than most wishlist characters I see on a regular basis.

I dont hate Toad at all, I'm just unaware of Smashboards' weird terminology. What is an all-star, and why is it important? I would be fine with Toad being in, but what makes him have this high "priority"? You seem to be indirectly puttting other characters down becuase of this "all-star" claim.

Is Toad the LAST All Star? No. He's probably the most famous non playable Nintendo star at this point though.
I'd argue Dixie's pretty up there alongside the more iconic Pokemon, but Toad who has an Amiibo, is world wide recognised, has had TWO games belonging to himself in Captain Toad and the confusing titled Wario's Woods(Toad's the playable star here), tons of merchandise showcasing him and is recognised at least even by non Nintendo fans as being a Mario character holds significant star power.

He's definitely iconic, don't get me wrong. But, do you believe Nintendo or Sakurai finds him as important as SB says he is?

Importance is based upon Nintendo's attitude towards the character, which is meant to reflect either their role in the game or "story" or reflect their "popularity" (aka fanservice). Unfortunately. merchandise doesn't really tell us a lot, especially for a series as popular as Mario, where virtually everything is turned into merchandise. So, I really don't know. If you have any ideas, feel free to enlighten me; I don't have as much of a history with Mario titles.

EDIT: He's marketed as much as Isabelle? Oh. Hopefully, Sakurai sees that he's popular. I still don't understand where his popularity comes from, though. Why do you like him as a character (this is a genuine question, not a criticism)?

Also "Star Power" feels meaningless to me, can you explain that further?

I'd like to point out that this isn't true; Sakurai has said more than once how, to some extent, representation influences the decisions he makes. It's actually part of the reason a couple of newcomers () got in, the other reason being what the character would bring.

You're going to have to give me a source. I don't recall him saying this at all.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Regardless of being 'proper representation' or not, which is a subjective opinion, the ways in which Pokemon is represented defy how any other series is represented in Smash Bros. Thus far, this is all fact.

Many believe random assortments of popular Pokemon due the trick- but I suggest this claim is ridiculous, that it is in fact possible to represent the franchise, despite its large number of characters, by focusing on what makes the series what it happens to be.

This is going to be a pain... Not because I'm arguing with you. It's just that I have to type all of this on an iPad. It's a long story. Has nothing to do with you. Let's begin, shall we?

I don't think it's a fact that Pokemon's representation is poor. In fact, people think that Pokemon is well represented, and I agree with them. We have Pikachu, who is Pokemon's mascot, Charizard and Mewtwo who are gen one favorites, Lucario, a gen four favorite and then you have the oddballs like Greninja and Jigglypuff. Even then though, despite how weird Greninja and Jigglypuff are, I think they fit into Smash. The only real problem I see with the Smash 4 Pokemon roster is how we don't have any Gen 3 or 5 Pokemon, but since the majority of the fanbase thinks that Pokemon is well represented, I doubt we'll be getting any more characters. It's a shame that Gens 3 and 5 weren't relevant when Brawl and 4 were out.

The thing is with so many Pokemon, Sakurai kinda has to limit the Pokemon roster to popular characters only. Pokemon I think has the largest potential in terms of character choices, but there's so many, I don't think we'd be able to represent Pokemon in its full glory. Because of this, we more or less have to accept what Sakurai gives us. Unless if the majority of the Smash base agrees with your claim, and tries to get Sakurai to notice this problem, Pokemon will keep being represented this way.

We absolutely cannot add everyones favorite Pokemon, or even most of them, so that goal is immediately futile.
Instead, we could focus on making it feel as though the world of Pokemon is in smash bros, not just the characters. I postulate this is an achievable goal, and that it cannot be done just by adding the 'popular Pokemon' and calling it a day.

Yes, which is why I think we shouldn't bother. Representation is a touchy subject; what you may think needs representation, another person may not. I love Pokemon, but I feel it is impossible for Smash to completely represent it. There's not enough demand in the Smash fanbase to make it so, and I don't think there ever will be enough demand. People are already complaining about the amount of Pokemon there are in Smash as is.

Forgot to mention that the Pokemon Company has a lot to do with the roster choices. The Pokemon Company is very picky with their IP; notice how Pokemon amiibo missed the opportunity to be used twice. The Pokemon Company probably asks Sakurai to add only certain Pokemon, and I think that alone heavily affects the Pokemon roster.

JigglyPuff, species: Balloon. Mewtwo, species: Genetic. Charizard, species: Flame. Ivysaur, species: seed. Greninja, species: ninja.
You're telling me it only matters for two? The species of Pokemon doesn't make any sense anyway, but if the only canonical ability of Sakurai is to take ninja and balloon, then the others should have been represented equally. Mewtwo's species is not even a noun.

I'm okay with how all of the Pokemon are represented in Smash. I, and a lot of people think that the Pokemon in Smash etc. have move sets that make sense for them. I only said that Jigglypuff and Greninja are fine because those are the characters you've mentioned. c:

Again, this is subjective. You're the only person I know at the moment who is not okay with Jigglypuff and Greninja's move set. Unless a good amount of people show this problem to Sakurai, I doubt the move sets for these characters will ever change, and I personally don't think they should. They make sense for the type of Pokemon they are. Their move sets go hand in hand with their body types.

It is the only franchise that only, solely, cares about popularity. Fire Emblem adds more than just new and relevant characters- they add the main characters of the games- the only case where they arguably didn't is Robin, and this was stated to add the 'essence' of the series, which the Pokemon alone do not do for it. I'm not sure where you get relevancy from, you brought up the point. There are plenty of characters relevant to Pokemon, that are not simply popular. All the ones we get are just a hodgepodge of popularity.

That's true, but FE characters are still added to the game due to their relevancy, similar to the Pokemon games. Just like how Gen 3 and 5 Pokemon weren't added, FE characters from FE2, FE4-5, and FE7-8 weren't added because their games were irrelevant by the time a Smash game was about to be released.

FE protagonists are in Smash because it's easier for Sakurai to come up with a move set for them. Can't really say that for the Pokemon Trainer, since he doesn't have any obvious weapons or anything.

I agree with you; there are relevant Pokemon who aren't popular. Heck, every Pokemon is relevant since every Pokemon appears in the main series. However, it's difficult to represent Pokemon properly in Smash which is why they're chosen for popularity reasons. There are about 20 or so FE lords, and there are about 720 Pokemon. Make that of what you will.

Besides that, yes... the Trainer is the vehicle of the entire story. Pokemon are the point of the franchise- and that is why we have tons of spinoffs without a trainer. Yet, in the base game, the trainer is CRUCIAL, and the mechanics of catching and training Pokemon, strategizing a team, are all about the trainer. The journey the player goes through is as an actual person, personified in the avatar trainer. Most of the Pokemon are even marginalized- captured and stored in a box forever to be 'completed,' and otherwise disregarded in their game.
The pokemon are very important to the game, absolutely, but the Trainer is a crucial part to how the game plays. Pokemon without the trainer is Mystery Dungeon. That's an entirely different game.

The Pokemon Trainer is crucial, no doubt. I always found it a little weird that we didn't even start seeing them in Smash until Brawl. However, seeing as how Sakurai removed the trainer from Smash 4, I just can't see the Pokemon trainer work in Smash. It sounds incredibly difficult to give him an interesting move set, and again due to lack of demand, I don't think he ever will be playable again. I think turning Pokemon trainers into trophies make for better representation, because you don't have to jump through loops just to make them playable. It saves development time, as well. Other franchises need characters too.

He made up Captain Falcon and Fox... Wii Fit trainer does yoga, which the character coaches you through. Fox uses weapons that his ship does. Falcon is the only one you listed whom he actually made up a moveset for moreso than any other character. My point was that Greninja was not based on the games, it was based on a sketch. That's it. The character we have in the game is based on a sketch. This is inherently, explicitly, a non-attempt to actually represent the character. He said himself (and only for Greninja, as far as I'm aware, no one else), that he based a moveset on a picture. If you think this is 'properly representing the character,' then be my guest to back it up.

[
Yes, Greninja has a made up move set because he was chosen for the roster before his game even came out. Again, you may not think his move set makes sense, but me and plenty of other people do. He's a ninja frog who is also a Water-Type; he's fast, nimble, and uses Water Shruikens. How much more proper representation does he need?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yeah, I don't think there's really any doubt that Toad is the most recognizable character to the general public yet tobe added, barring a couple of more recent additions like Isabelle and Inkling.

Those two characters may be well-known, but Toad is still much more iconic than them due to his greater exposure from a much more famous franchise. If any Nintendo character (that isn't playable) can be argued to be is as famous as he is, it's probably Meowth or some other incredibly famous Pokemon character.

 

[Wiley]

Fierce Deity is awesome, one of the best bonus upgrades a game can offer... except for the fact that you don't get to use it in a way that feels good. It makes you so Op that it becomes mash attack to finish the game, and you can only use it in specific areas so you never really get to enjoy it to the fullest. In concept and in collection it is awesome, but unlike another "ultimate power up" like say Super Sonic from Sonic 3 where you can collect 50 coins and let loose even on level 1 on replay, this one feels limited. We should have been able to tromp around all over with it, maybe had special interactions and dialogue with certain people.

TLDR :
I think the Link alt costume for Fierce Deity is a nice enough rep for smash, though I wish the sword was remodeled as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Who was the first character I ever wanted in? K. Rool.

Which character was I most happy about bring added Shulk.

 

[Jae]

Please come back, Snake