Data General Match-Up Discussion Thread (ask about matchups here!)

[MioTinto]

Really? What makes the D3/Link matchup favorable? His projectiles are nigh light speed, which doesn't only mess with D3's Gordo game, but also makes him hard to approach. A high priority Uair doesn't exactly balance that out.

 

[Ludiloco]

On BF I think Link is a pushover

Just no FD ever ever ever

 

[manueluno]

Really? What makes the D3/Link matchup favorable? His projectiles are nigh light speed, which doesn't only mess with D3's Gordo game, but also makes him hard to approach. A high priority Uair doesn't exactly balance that out.

I usually approach this by either rolling, shielding or jumping above the projectiles. It may get a little boring if Links game becomes focused only on projectiles and running away, but is doable.

At close quarters Links faults become visible, he hits very slow, even thou he has good melee range KD3s is better, and the Kings aerial game far surpasses Links.

Edit: Also, you can jab a lot of projectiles like villagers missle, all of samus missles, zss stun shot. I think you can jab either Links boomerang as well.

 

[Ludiloco]

I actually don't suggest fighting Link in close quarters either. His jab comes out quicker than ours, his up tilt juggles us for major damage, and he can kill us very early with f and up smash. Stay at your comfy D3 midrange and smack him around with your superior range. At midrange Link is easily punished for spamming projectiles, and his sword doesn't reach as far as our hammer. Hang around that area and rack up the jabs, waiting for him to make a mistake. Then rush in for a grab and go from there.

On FD, getting to this midrange is very frustrating. Never allow a Link to take you there. BF and SV are your best bets for winning.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I die a little on the inside whenever I come across a Link or Mario on For Glory. 90% of them ALWAYS camp. Projectiles plus FD as King Dedede, please no.

 

[AlextheTwin]

On FD, Link definitely has the advantage because he can spam projectiles hard and force DDD to approach, I'd say 70:30 Link. On battlefield, I still think Link is a solid 60:40 favorite for the same reasons. It's harder on that map, but Link can still camp DDD hard.

 

[Jdawg26]

Link is easier to fight because every projectile he throws is fairly telegraphed, to be honest. His arrow has a very distinct animation, as does his boomerang. His bombs have a timer so if you just camp the air at roughly a 45 degree angle above his head he really can't do much about it.

He does have some solid options when you're on the ground near him, but his mediocre grab means that spotdodging is very effective against most of them. As long as you don't get too predictable and wait for him to commit, the matchup is solidly in DDD's favor. 60-40 for the king imo.

I'll do a full write-up once we reach that point in the official matchup thread. Speaking of which... @ shrooby is it possible to move on to the next one a bit sooner? It seems like most people are in agreement that Diddy is a fairly bad matchup.

 

[shrooby]

I'll do a full write-up once we reach that point in the official matchup thread. Speaking of which... @ shrooby is it possible to move on to the next one a bit sooner? It seems like most people are in agreement that Diddy is a fairly bad matchup.

tbh I also made it two weeks long 'cause I'll be gone most of next week and won't really be able to do anything on the site as much I usually do.

 

[manueluno]

Diddy is 30:70 in my opinion. He is so fast, I don't even know how to approach this fight other than react, try to create space and try to get away when he is comboing me.

Link is 60:40 in favor of the king. Arrows will not kill you, and he can't angle the direction either. Bombs go straight forward or up, and you can catch them. Boomerang can be jabbed, jumped over and rided with a fsmash. Biggest problem is resisting the temptation of throwing a gordo every now and then.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

It may just be that I have trouble dealing with Link/Mario then. Those two were definitely characters I had trouble with in PM and that seems to have carried over into this game for me as well. It's not like I don't ever beat them as Dedede, but I usually end up switching off to ROB (my secondary) or a pocket character, usually Yoshi or Bowser, to make things more comfortable for me.

I'm kind of curious about player match ups actually, because everyone has their preferences in terms of the opponents they face. I don't really mind going up against Ness, for example, but King Dedede is combo-food for that character and he has enough disjointed hitboxes to make it difficult to get a hit in with Gordo.

 

[33percentgod]

I main Bowser and I consistently have bad match ups against DDD. The lag between moves with Bowser makes it impossible to deal with the gordo spam. If you literally just keep using the gordos, I have 0 ability to react. That and DDD's move where he spins the hammer up in the air makes it impossible. Bowser NEEDS to be on the ground. Bowser is almost useless in the air and that hammer move not only keeps you juggled, but always beats the Bowser Bomb (I don't think anything should beat that move considering it's the heaviest character coming STRAIGHT down as fast as possible, but that's a side tangent.)

Any tips on playing against DDD as a Bowser main?

 

[Soul Train]

Any tips on playing against DDD as a Bowser main?

This is a hard matchup for you, for sure. is my secondary, and even with my knowledge I still hate fighting other D3s with the turtle. Bowser's heavy, a huge target, and D3 can combo him to stupid %s. But it's nowhere near as bad as you might think.

You have to play smart, patient, and punish D3's mistakes. He's a heavy; he WILL leave openings.

Getting back to ground: actually, Bowser Bomb is beaten by a lot. Such as: anything that's a disjointed hitbox, a la D3's Uair. However no Bowser should use that to get back to ground - the predictability and crazy endlag of the move will always bite you. Regardless of matchup. Use smart airdodges, unpredictable trajectories, and fastfalls.

Also - perfect your Bowser Bomb ledgegrab. When hit up in the air, aim toward the ledge, and when in the right place, DownB. Bowser Bomb autograbs the ledge regardless of what side you're facing - just don't hold down or you'll die. There's a decent amount of leeway with this - in between killing yourself to landing on the stage. Take five minutes in Training and you'll get it.

Gordos: you're a huge target without many quick, lingering hitboxes = best day ever for D3's Gordo game. Reflecting them is hard, so reading the D3's intent with the Gordo is critical - are they aiming to hit you, or just scare you? But projectile struggles are nothing new to Bowser. Deal with Gordos how you do the many other projectile characters: powershield, dodge, git gud.

Oh, Gordos don't get through Charizard's Flamethrower, but they do Bowser's Fire Breath. Meh.

Ranges: D3 will abuse his Gordos in neutral, and Ftilt/Dtilt when close. The latter two are all punishable on shield - bait. And once inside that range, you're golden. D3 relies a lot on shield/spotdodge to counter fast close attacks - we don't have solid answers to Bowser's SideB and Jab frame traps. And use Bowser's pivot grab, it's got ridiculous range. Fire Breath is great when D3 doesn't have Gordo out - we have no answer for it at midrange.

See threat range overlay below. While D3/Bowser are tied at some ranges (grab), the odds are in Bowser's favor in close. Then D3's Dtilt comes out in 6 frames and Bowser's fastest move - Jab - is out in 7. But on the other hand, you can murder D3 if you shield the Dtilt. And if you can react in time, Jab reflect any ground Gordos in that grey range, D3 can't respond in time to shield/reflect back.

Summary: stay out of the green, play smart in the grey, get in the red.

You do have one thing D3 doesn't: incredible out-of-shield options. Dedede's above you? Be ready to punish the Nair fastfall. Abuse your shorthop-airdodge-whirling fortress cancel, mixing up with SideB to stay unpredictable. You managed to shield a D3 Dtilt/Jab at close range? Murder him with an UpB out of shield.

Yes, this is uphill for Bowser. But nothing like Shiek or Megaman. You can actually kill D3 in a few moves - something no one else can do.

 

[MioTinto]

Any thoughts on the Dr. Mario matchup? I recently fought one in particular who was good with megavitamin camping, who just launched me with Dr. Tornado when I approached, and went back to camping again.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think Doc poses a similar threat to Mario, just by virtue of sharing some of the same characteristics. However, he's significantly less mobile and his recovery is also a lot worse. Dedede should win if you get him off stage.

As far as dealing with camping, all I can say is to be patient really...apparently Dedede's jab can stuff out projectiles (something which I need to start working into my game) and mix-up your approach as best as you can. Tornado is pretty laggy, so you can punish him for using that if you get in. Also, it doesn't always connect into that final launch, I'm pretty sure you can DI out of it.

I would also avoid playing against him on Final Destination, if you can help it. I don't know if you were playing on For Glory or not, but projectile campers pose a greater threat online because you're forced to answer their projectile and even the slightest amount of delay means it's tougher to punish habitual rollers (unless they get SUPER predictable with them). In tourney, I would take Doc to pretty much any other stage.

 

[adom4]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but what do you think about the DDD vs Ganondorf match up?
I always find myself struggling against DDD & i would love to hear your input on this matchup.

 

[manueluno]

I think Ganon is not that difficult a matchup. That being said, you have to play it very safe since he punishes very hard, deals a lot of damage and kills you quite early (low hundred percents). The trick is forcing him to attack you and react accordingly. You can force him off neutral with the gordo and poking him from a distance with ftilt.

Be wary of the ganoncide, or side b in general. In the air you will die first, in the ground he will follow up with some other attack, possibly dtilt, and deal around 30 percent damage.

 

[adom4]

I think Ganon is not that difficult a matchup. That being said, you have to play it very safe since he punishes very hard, deals a lot of damage and kills you quite early (low hundred percents). You can force him off neutral with the gordo and poking him from a distance with ftilt.

Be wary of the ganoncide, or side b in general. In the air you will die first, in the ground he will follow up with some other attack, possibly dtilt, and deal around 30 percent damage.

I'm the Dorf main, i'm looking for tips against DDD.

 

[manueluno]

Play patient and try reflecting the gordos. The Kings moves are very slow, aim to punish that. Ganon's B special has superarmor, if the player is trying to land on top of you while recovering with upB you can endure the hit and punish him heavily with that move.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Against Dorf, this is in D3's favor for sure.
Stay out of his way, respect his range, and wait for an opening. Punish any careless Gorod's he throws, and space yourself so that they're all reflectable. Don't let him sneak up on you by throwing Utilt Gordos and slowly advancing, trying to corner you.

When using your Forward-B, watch out for his Ftilt, which cancels it.

Basically, focus on punishing.

 

[toadster101]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but what do you think about the DDD vs Ganondorf match up?
I always find myself struggling against DDD & i would love to hear your input on this matchup.

Don't feel bad. The matchup is definitely in Dedede's favor, but it's not unwinnable. Ganondorf is so strong that a single forward smash is often all you need to guarantee victory. Many of Dedede's attacks have a lot of end lag, so play patiently and punish his laggier attacks. Dedede also relies on vertical recovery, which you can punish with a well timed meteor smash.

 

[CWBY]

i don't main d3, but i play shulk, and d3 is a character that trips me up any time i fight him. could i hear anyone's thoughts on the d3/shulk matchup?

 

[Soul Train]

i don't main d3, but i play shulk, and d3 is a character that trips me up any time i fight him. could i hear anyone's thoughts on the d3/shulk matchup?

Some great analysis of the Shulk D3 match done here and below: http://smashboards.com/threads/king...he-king-is-in-the-house.395179/#post-18775741

 

[manueluno]

Love Shulk's MU. Yesterday I played a good enough Shulk.

The last match we played, I finished him off by catching a gordo and hitting it again at close range slightly below the stage. Shulk was at melee range so he got hiy by the gordo AND the hammer. He was launched and got stage spiked.

I saved the replay. It was very exciting.

 

[Perris6]

I am having so much trouble against Mario. Is there any way to beat him with the King?

 

[shrooby]

I'm thinkin' about moving Yoshi up in the schedule. As @ Soul Train had asked about a few weeks ago. Maybe in between Sonic and Falcon. I feel the knowledge of that match-up in particular should be given more priority than I originally gave it.
Feel free to give a "yay" if you're for that change.

I am having so much trouble against Mario. Is there any way to beat him with the King?

It's all about abusing your superior range. And making the most when he's recovering off-stage. Mario's relatively easy to gimp.
We also got him beat in the air with our great range. Just don't get too cocky with that or you'll get punished big time.
It's an annoying match-up, for sure. One of my least favorites, personally. Mario's pretty good a dealing with Gordo, plus he makes pure combo fodder out of poor, girth-y Dedede.
And Fireballs... Gah, they're surprisingly annoying.
Patience is really a virtue; work your way in slowly but surely. Be very conscious of keeping him out of range with jabs and ftilts.

To add, there's a particular range you want to keep Mario at when in general. A range that allows you to space properly and not get caught in his crazy combos. Something Soul Train would be able to elaborate on more. (And with a spiffy, color-coded diagram. )
Our ultimate goal in the match-up, I feel, will be getting a gimp. It's where we'll have the easiest time getting a KO. You just need to be patient enough to make that opportunity arise.

 

[manueluno]

Yay!

Also, maybe duck hunt and megaman could be higher in the list, and Fox could be lower. Poor Fox, not even the shadow of Melee's Fox.

 

[atomicblast360]

Any advice on dealing with Fox as Dedede? It's personally one of my hardest match ups alongside Sonic, I always get rushed down by fox and he's really hard for me to hit with Gordo's.

 

[manueluno]

Shield and grab... a lot. Dtilt is good to create space if he is in your face all the time. Fox likes to juggle, when above him in the air DI to the sides and mix your falls with bairs, inhales and other jumps as to not stay predictable. Fox's uair and usmash are a pain, look out for those.

Check if Fox is recovering with UpB instead of side b. If he is, you need to react quickly and gimp him. I have meteor smashed some Foxes while they are still in the powering up animation.

 

[Soul Train]

Any advice on dealing with Fox as Dedede? It's personally one of my hardest match ups alongside Sonic, I always get rushed down by fox and he's really hard for me to hit with Gordo's.

Fox is actually a much easier matchup than Sonic. D3 has many tools to outspace Fox, escape his combos, punish his unsafe kill moves, and destroy him in the Gordo game (Sonic on the other hand is stupid safe on neigh EVERYTHING).

Sounds like you're trying to play a campy D3. Don't. You should rarely aim to HIT with Gordo directly. Instead use Gordo more to control space, and cover potential Gordo reflect with Nair/Dtilt. Fox should have a very hard time dealing with your Gordo/reflected back Gordo when spaced right. If Fox holds shield/Down B well before the Gordo even hits him, you're doing it right.

Gordo also eats laser spam. Throw Gordo out at full stage when he's lasering you, approach from behind, then SH Nair the inevitable Fox DownB reflect.

Ftilt eats Fox's approach. Dtilt too, as manueluno said above. Fox falls so fast that once you get a grab/nair-utilt combo started, it'll easy rack up ~50%.

DI is critical. Fox is a big combo character, but you can escape out of almost everything with good DI and jumps.

Your aerials eat his. Learn to space.

On gimping: Fox will often Side B to the edge, then jump Side B again to get to center stage. Predict this and punish. Gordo destroys his Side B, and your hammer destroys his UpB. Fox should be very, very scared if you knock him offstage.

 

[drumdog]

Any thoughts on the Dr. Mario matchup? I recently fought one in particular who was good with megavitamin camping, who just launched me with Dr. Tornado when I approached, and went back to camping again.

Stage spikes and ledge pushes can be really punishing, just make sure to crowd him and change up your recovery options a bunch or else he'll punish you hard

 

[MioTinto]

Do you have any tips for fighting R.O.B? I've found that their Robo Beam goes right through out Gordos while reflecting them, so we can't bait them into reflecting Gordos back at us so we can reflect them back yet again, as we'll be left with having to deal with both the Gordo and the beam if they decide to reflect with Robo Beam. Arm rotor also cancels out most of our options for approaching.

 

[A-money2121]

The only character who's been a pain for me is Sonic. Most smart Sonic players would side-b and cancel causing you to screw up. Not to mention how hard it is to predict a Sonic, unless the player isn't too experienced with Sonic.

I've also ran into issues with projectile based characters, usually being Samus and Link (and occasionally a good Mega Man player).
The only advice I'd give for these match-ups is to approach the opponent by shielding their projectiles. By approaching them they would be forced to switch their play styles up a bit. That's a good time to get those grab combos in and rack up some of that damage.

 

[shrooby]

Do you have any tips for fighting R.O.B? I've found that their Robo Beam goes right through out Gordos while reflecting them, so we can't bait them into reflecting Gordos back at us so we can reflect them back yet again, as we'll be left with having to deal with both the Gordo and the beam if they decide to reflect with Robo Beam. Arm rotor also cancels out most of our options for approaching.

The thing I've found with people, as I mained ROB for a bit while the 3DS version was out before the Wii U version, is that people who are inexperienced against ROB don't quite know when exactly I can and where I can shoot lasers.
Good ROBs will shoot uncharged lasers until the cows come home. Because it's one of the best projectiles in the game.
You really have to be prepared for when ROB shoots can shoot a laser. Otherwise you'll be eating 4% after 4%. And it adds up.
If you're having trouble with lasers hitting Gordo, then try focusing on using Gordos after they've used the laser. 'Cause it has to charge.
And ftilt should go through Arm Rotor.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Arm Rotor is also really unsafe on shield. You can seriously just block it until ROB does that final swing of the attack. Of course a good ROB won't throw it out unless they're sure it'll hit, but if you do get your shield up it's basically a free punish for you. Shrooby is right, ROB wants to keep pelting you with lasers. You just need to get a good feel for when that ROB shoots them, there is a few seconds of recharge after firing a laser.

I know you didn't really mention this, but be wary of the gyro. It's a really good projectile, and the ROB player is going to try to keep it in hand at all times, but if you DO grab it, hang onto it as long as possible. By holding onto it you shut down one of ROB's best options and you can use it yourself to cover certain options.

 

[Mrawesome48]

How do you counter the gordos? Ive never been able to beat king d3 simply because the opponent will just sit on the other side spamming gordos. Cant approach, i heard you can hit the gordos but when i do im still getting hit and they're not being sent back at him. I dont know what to do

 

[MioTinto]

How do you counter the gordos? Ive never been able to beat king d3 simply because the opponent will just sit on the other side spamming gordos. Cant approach, i heard you can hit the gordos but when i do im still getting hit and they're not being sent back at him. I dont know what to do

If you can help it, try training to hit them with a disjointed hitbox at first. Then when you've nailed that, move on to regular hitboxes. Gordos go through Bowser's Fire Breath, Fox's Blaster and most rapid jabs, so be wary of that. I think Gordos are reflected from most hitboxes giving 2% or more, and the more powerful the attack, the faster the Gordo will travel and the more damage will be granted to D3.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Dedede players, Rosalina is now analyzing Dedede at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Dedede match-up, Dedede will be analyzed until the end of 4/11.

 

[TheWorstMuppet]

Hey ho King-o's! My flatmate and I are practising Dedede and Sheik together as our team for future doubles tournaments. As Dedede, what role would I best fit in this regard and what advice would you give to a novice Dedede in teams? I've been trying to learn the spacing on Dee's hammer, which I guess is first and foremost in understanding how to use him. Still, any tips would be awesome and appreciated!<3

Also I apologize if this ain't the right thread for this question, please don't put me back in the box! Ack!

 

[MioTinto]

Hey ho King-o's! My flatmate and I are practising Dedede and Sheik together as our team for future doubles tournaments. As Dedede, what role would I best fit in this regard and what advice would you give to a novice Dedede in teams? I've been trying to learn the spacing on Dee's hammer, which I guess is first and foremost in understanding how to use him. Still, any tips would be awesome and appreciated!<3

Also I apologize if this ain't the right thread for this question, please don't put me back in the box! Ack!

Ooh, doubles are fun for getting away with crap you wouldn't dream of pulling off in singles. Try the jet hammer if you get the chance!
I also highly recommend you to watch Soul Train's video guide if you haven't already, it gives you a lot of tips for approaching and how to use the Gordo throw.
Considering you're fighting alongside a Sheik, you should probably stay in close ranges, while Sheik can stay in the background and provide ranged attacks and hit-and-runs. Don't be afraid of trying out Gordo throw at close ranges, either! With the right read, you can catch your opponent both on your hammer and the Gordo, which will rack up a whopping 25% in damage!

 

[SalsaSavant]

So, for the new matchup we've all been waiting for!



I don't have a lot of experience yet, but here are some observations...

D3 can kill him very early, at 80% or so if you get a good hit in, and only a little later if you can't.
Mewtwo kills D3 early...er than normal. We can still live for a long time though.
D3 gets caught in his combos pretty easily, but his combos aren't all that bad.
Eating a Shadow Ball is hilarious.
Confusion can reflect, but it's not a big deal. We're used to it/welcome it.
His aerials can challenge ours, but we still win out. Watch out for his Nair though.
We outrange him technically, with our Ftilt, but he has great range too.
It has power roughly on par with ours, but it's ranged moves don't have it. So we have range + power, and Mewtwo has to choose one.

It's too early to say for sure, but I'm thinking this will be advantage D3. Many strengths that Mewtwo has, we have too, but better. We're a bit slower and have a more gradual pace as opposed to it's glass canon status, but we can survive most of what it can put out and kill it early.

If I were to rank this matchup, and take note that this is from Day 2, so I'm not saying it's definite and my opinion is likely to change, I'd say it's...

60:40