I'm not the first person to mention anything about his ethical comment. I hope you're not singling me out for such a thing when the post before mine called it out. I find that a tad unfair. And this isn't even the first time Quillion brought up the ethical argument either. We debated past that point then, too.
Troll or not, there
are people who agree with him. He just happens to be the most vocal—and most obstinate—voice for his crowd. I've actually debated this subject with people other than him. I actually enjoy talking with people who don't argue for the continued use of Falcondorf for the sake of going against the canon, but for the sheer joy of playing as that incredibly fun version of the character. It tends to be a pleasant treat from time to time, and they're usually respectful about it.
Before Sm4sh was released—before I was even a Smashboards member—I once suggested an idea to the Nintendo NSider2 Forums that the next Smash should have an "Edition Select" system for each character, inspired by same idea implemented by Ultra Street Fighter IV. (This idea is not new by any stretch of the imagination). My idea was when you selected a character you could choose what version of character you play as: N64, Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4.
I thought it'd be a fantastic idea, but many other members called it out as a generally bad idea, stating it to be so only because the work the devs would have to put into such a thing would hamper the rest of the game, delay its release for another year at minimum, or be impossible to balance properly. Though I was upset about such a negative response, it didn't make what they said untrue. I was naive to the consequences such an idea would bring. An Edition Select would be a balancing nightmare for the devs, and make the game take
that much longer to complete. And even then, it only applied to characters that have been in prior games. Newcomers would be excluded from such a thing, granting veteran characters an unfair advantage over newer characters.
Honestly, most characters don't even have enough differences between versions to justify having an entirely separate moveset dedicated to the version it came from. For example: outside of balance and attribute changes, what was different between Melee Link and Brawl Link? One thing: his boomerang. Are we going to overhaul an entire moveset because one special move had a different property to it? Not really. Can the devs instead alter just that one move instead of the entire set? Yes. In fact, they already tried that:
Altering individual Specials for each character is what Sm4sh tried to do with Custom Moves. However, the idea here is that we're not using Custom Moves, but older moves that are no longer used by said characters. Does it go beyond specials? Are we talking the normals too? That's where the topic of Ganondorf's new smashes come in and bring about this discussion.
I'm not arguing against the idea because I'm pessimistic. I'm arguing against it because it isn't practical. If we could manually adjust each character's individual moves to our liking, there'd be zero complaints towards any change made towards a character's moveset. Everyone (myself included) would be quite happy because we weren't limited by what the developers initially gave us. But is it feasible? You're better off having a custom character that is fully customizable down to the normals; the Mii Fighters didn't even have that level of customization. Honestly, that sort of depth is best left to Wrestling games from the early 2000's, where every individual move had dozens to hundreds of alternative options to choose from. Even then, certain moves were either far better than others or only visually different with the same level of potency. Imbalance is unavoidable if everything is different.
Go and look at the move lists for WWF Wrestlemania 2000 and WWF No Mercy, or at least watch some videos of people creating wrestlers. There's over 200 options for just
taunts alone. Something like that just isn't feasibly done nowadays, especially not in Smash. The reason that type of thing worked is because every character in the game, not just the custom ones, were restricted to a very strict system. Every character was essentially the same framework but were differentiated by the moves they were given. Created characters were easily better than the base characters because all you had to do was put the best moves of each type on the character. As wrestling games have progressed over the years, the depth of options and customizations both progressed and regressed. More cosmetic details available for customization, but less moveset individuality for customization.
I decided a while back I prefer seeing a character get new moves with each installment. Each new game should bring something new for each character. Be it little, like a taunt, or large, like entirely new moves. And the player should live with these changes, just as other traditional fighting game players have to do.
I'm sorry, I just went off on a flying tangent. I'm not against having old movesets because I don't want you guys to have fun playing Smash the way you want to play Smash. I'm against it because it just isn't realistically within our reach.
But what do I know? Sakurai is a madman, as we've all seen. Take a look at this
image here. You see the option for Custom Balance? It's been speculated that you can adjust rage here, but it's an "Off" or "On" type of option. We don't know what this truly means or entails.
TL;DR, I don't think it's realistic but I could be woefully wrong.
You don't need to feel sorry for going on a tangent or anything, I'm after all prob the next in line for writing/posting giant walls of text etc and thus have no right to complain about it to anyone else.
What I can and should however do, is point out or clarify, what you overlooked or when you missed something within my message/post, that being the important details and actual intend behind it.
So first off; are you actually going the "He started it first" route/approach of things?!
What are you, 8? But yeah, technically he started the argument by mentionning his "It's unethical" spiel AGAIN, so he's the one in my analogy who spilled the fuel barrel. However if you were the one to have this convo with him before (to no avail, as I'm sure) why did you feel the need to start/react to it AGAIN?! That's exactly WHY I asked YOU not to be the one to add fuel to the fire, or to be more precise, FEED THIS TROLL! ( But if you absolutely have to deal with him in some shape or form directly yourself, just Pm him about it, like you did with me!!!)
Troll or no, the fact is you're giving him undeserved attention, instead of just ignoring him, which just leads to unnecassary, tedious discussions, that most people, I would assume, want to have no part in or of.
I'm not sure if you noticed or read through the rest of this thread, but the thread-owner himself
WaLuP
respectfully asked
Quillion
to leave this thread, which is in
my mind the right thing to do, bc if you know that you don't agree or care for the general opinion of most users within a thread, you have no business being or throwing your hat into said ring there!
But if that doesn't work and he doesn't adjust his behaviour/improves his mannerisms, I propose that we all just vote to ban him (ironically enough given he had the gall to suggest the very same, with the difference being, that he just didn't want to "TOLERATE" people that he disagrees with, which funnily enough, happens to be the majority) from whatever thread he keeps pestering. I am very aware that this is a fairly drastic measure/proposal, so at the very least he deserves a couple more chances to redeem himself and a fair warning, before we resort to outright banning him, but if he keeps up his ,by now pretty old, antics/tricks, we should keep this option in mind, just in case.
I'm sorry to
everyone btw for dragging this charade out even longer. If you think I jumped the gun too early, made a montain out of a molehill so to speak, simply went too far or you actually happen to agree with my whole, or just part of my opinion, please let me know!
As far as you enjoying talking to people, who just like playing Falcondorf for better and more logical/honest reasons than Quillion, well good for you, I don't mind that in the slightest. Heck, part of myself still belongs to that camp, which is why I especially am torn on how most people are on completely opposite sides of the fence/bush/river instead of trying to compromise and meet in the middle.
But just so nobody has any exuse to interpret my postion/stance differently than what it actually is, let me clarify it, once more.
I'm currently mostly satisfied and hyped for Ganon's ultimate incarnation, as I am mostly on board or more accurately feel that all those changes/improvements were long overdue anyway. Those being a buffed grab game, more appropiate speed, jump hight, as well as overall better frame data and not to forget finally incorporating his sword, which was teased so bad, as the warlock blade custom, into his actual smash attacks! Here we also unfortunatedly have the first major example of the dark side of said coin, when it comes to Sakurai changing/updating a character, that being replacing/abolishing his phenomenal lagless U-smash, instead of his actual worst and frankly biggest thorn/weak link in his moveset, his frigging U-tilt VOLCANO KICK! (If you feel like argueing/discussing this point/matter in particular, please do so in the thread/poll I created for said express purpose, thanks in advance
)
This fact, along with a lot of discontent when it comes to balancing a lot of other low tier chars, esp the other heavies in question, just proves that Sakurai has not the slightest idea what the fans/mains of these characters want or need. (Trust me I'll go into more detail later.) In ganon's case, some more disjoint invincibility, which he had on some moves but got taken away bc reasons...., or even superarmor on a character, which deserves it the most and not to mention, Sigh......his RECOVERY, which they could so easily improve by just letting him not become helpless/be able to act ( allow him to db jump and use darkdive) after using flame choke in the air!!! No, I am not letting this go, esp when a little **** like
lil'mac and pretty much the rest of the cast can do so by now!!!
Speaking of customs, you mentionned that you proposed giving characters in other games besides Smash, the option to pick different older past versions, movesets and such and got heavily rejected, bc they argued that it was way too much effort and wasted time that could be better spent on balancing and such, while I pretty much agree 100% with that stance and opinion (though for different reasons), there's a multitude of points, why this sort of logic no longer
objectively holds up.
1) We're talking about Smash first of all, a party/fighting game whose conventions and practises can hardly be compared with most standart fighters, esp given how the roster is actually determined, as well as how game play changes/balance was handeled so far.
2) If I understand this correctly, this was many years ago, so even if the same rules and logic was applicable to Smash, you still overlooked one major factor. Change and development within Human society and industries is NOT OF A LINEAR NATURE! It occurs
exponentially. You just need to take a look at the list of changes from one Smash game to the next to confirm this fact. Did we ever expect characters like Snake and Sonic to join the Roster, while waiting for Brawl? Did we ever see or think that Cloud and Ryu would be realistic canidates for the Smash universe?Did most of us not write Ridley and K.K Rool off as pipe dream at some point?! Really after all the wonderful bountiful content, options Ultimate seems to offer, I don't put any possibility/concept past Sakurai, he pretty much redeemed himself from all the horrible jank patches/updates and unbalanced Dlc characters he put us through in the last cycle/days of Sm4sh, where I and prob a lot of other people had given up on Smash at that point.
3) Smash Ultimate bringing back every single character, be those slightly different or Semi-clones etc and also introducing additional Echo fighters (with the potential of future differences, more unique touchups and such added later) stands in direct/opposing contrast to this notion! If Sakurai has also proven one thing with Ultimate, it's that he won't let himself be stopped from achieving/attempting to bring any demand/idea/concept to fruition/make it reality, if he thinks it's a
worthwhile endeavour.
So as you can see, I don't think this subjective notion/reasoning of creating alternative movesets/characters being way too much hassle and more trouble than it's worth, holds quite as much water as it used to before. However I will still agree with you, just based on 2 simple reasons, which you pointed out already, those being that customs as a concept failed horribly in Sm4sh due to horrible execution and balance and 2, there are way too few moves and Og material to draw entire solid, believable, functionable moves from, for the majority of characters.
I completely 100% agree with you on that front. So what exactly is my Problem then?
Simple. You utterly missed my actual point in my question. You completely misunderstood what I was talking about. You mistook Quillion's opinion and stance for mine.
I never, ever asked for
every Character to get Custom-specials/ movesets or alternate designs/playstyles to be incorporated. Bc yeah as you rightly said, hardly any character have many if any feasible canon examples to go off, but what about GANON AND LINK THOUGH?!?! Have we not proven and established beyond a doubt now, that those two have way more potential and multiple excellent sources to draw from, to create multiple different character concepts/movesets/attributes/gameplay styles compared with any other member of the Smash cast? HELL DO WE NEED TO BRING UP PROJECT GANONDORF AGAIN!?!?
I mean Link even has currently 3 available alternate versions with different attributes, (slightly) different specials, frame data etc.
So do you (and everybody else for that matter) really think it's too much to ask/ expect at this point for Ganon to get at least another
seperate characterslot/represantation for another Loz title? (like my H/Ww Ganon idea in this thread right here, your (Pig) Ganon trident wizard concept on the first page of your very own thread, or even something more simple, less ambitious than these examples).
Really the only good explaination/justification for the currebt state, I've seen so far, was
@Mewtwo 's were he explained that Ganon just happens to be one of the actual unlucky last minute rushed inclusions(as opposed to Sakurai's impression) and since he was well received, he wrongfully assumed that he needed to keep him that way to please fans like you-know-who, or just really thought it was better/easier keeping him mostly the same.
Until Ultimate that is. It might just have been a small but very symbolic meaningful step for the fans, but was prob a big leap ( of faith) for Sakurai and his developers, as he was certainley proud enough to show Ganon off, even before the Smash mascot and mirror counter part, who even with these seemingly "still-not-halfway-there-faithful-portrayal" changes/updates managed to steal most of the show/attention along with Ridley upon Ultimate's reveal. That just tells/shows me, that unlike prior, Sakurai actually (tried) to listen to largely popular opinions/inputs among fans this time, which is even more evident when looking at the recently appearing long requested newcomers.
Where he took most of this feedback from, I can't tell you for sure, but the Smash ballot certainely played a big part in it, which is why I hope we can find some form of consensus what we should vote, by the next time, we get a ballot, which I'm pretty sure is gonna happen somewhere down the line of Ultimate's lifespan.
Haaaaaaaaaaaah, I'm pooped, prob my longest and one of my most passionate arguments so far. I hope I didn't come across too angry or bitter towards you
NintendoKnight
, since that was the furthest thing from my mind. Most of these emotionial responses are pretty much all directed towards the topic/points of discussion at hand, not you. Nevertheless should I happen to offend or rub you the wrong way, I'll apologize.
I took me so much time and seperate restarts, due to the sheer length of this reply, that I prob missed some posts in the meantime, which hopefully don't clash with this one as a result.
