Ganondorf de-cloningish

[Quillion]

Ok mate, from this message is clear as water to me that you are a troll. I don't think you can otherwise throw more fallacies purposely into a single message. And on top of that still being so adamant with your point of view and not aknowledging other people opinons. Have you even read my previous post? I've talked about this stuff before.

First, you are ignoring all this thread and saying that everyone wants Ganondorf to have the single sword in all his moves and saying that wouldn't set him appart from Ike. You are making up stuff again to support your point of view. I mean sure, if that's all you do and you take Ike's animations, then maybe they would be too similar. No one asked for that. Even those who want a sworded Ganondorf, most want a dual swords Ganondorf, which is something completely different. And also, you are forgetting that what many people ultimately want is to have a decloned Ganondorf. That could come in many ways: with and without a sword / dual swords, and for many or just some of his moves.

Second, Zelda light arrows as her side smash like I suggested: that's your opinion. Not the unmistakable thruth as you adamantly want us to believe in all your claims. Also, can you elaborate on what consist "the grace of her character"? It's just a vague concept based on your own thoughts. Look, you can not like my idea, and that's fine. I don't mind. But that's all you get. As I said, you can go and ask Zelda users in their boards what they think about this stuff if you want. This is a Ganondorf decloning thread, not a "Zelda light arrows" thread.

Third, is Ganondorf moveset fun to play? Well it depends, do you like not being able to recover? Could it be better? Could he have a different recovery? Could he have more options based on his own games? I'm sure he could. You know what could be fun? I know it sounds crazy, but it would be hella fun if Ganondorf had a new moveset using those tools from his games. And it would not only be fun: it would be right. It would be a good design. A design for the fans of the character, and not for the fans of an old cloned moveset.

Is it fun having a character with all that power, that can be "disrespectfull" and completely destroy opponents in a few hits? I agree, it is good. I've talked about it before. And you know what? You could keep that concept in a new moveset. Amazing right? And there are even more options. As if no one has suggested anything in this thread before right? And you can keep the concept while having the fun of a new moves that represent the character well enough.

Lastly, 1:1? What's 1:1 to you? No one asked for a 1:1 recreation. For example no one asked for Link to have heart containers. No one asked for Pokemon to only attack in turns. No one asked for Fire Emblem characters to move only in set distances of a few meters. What you said about Donkey Kong is something nobody ask for because DK is fine. If he had a clone moveset, I'm sure people would ask for changes, maybe changes like those you exposed. But he doesn't need those. That's what happens when you construct a moveset as it should be from the start -everyone likes it-. Ganondorf doesn't have that privilege.

Again, making some changes doesn't mean you need to change the concept. But even if it was needed, many would argue that it's worth it in Ganondorf's case. That's how far it goes. And there are other options, as we have talked about in this thread and in many more.

Honestly, I don't know if you deserve this long post. You completely ignored everything else I and many said, and you only repeat the same stuff in every thread from time to time. It's getting tiring.

But who's going to fill the niche of the slow, methodical puncher who demands that the player be as arrogant as he is? Who's going to fill the niche of the puncher who demands that the player approach the opponent, with just being close to the player being a practical instant-death radius?

And DON'T say Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. I want a major King of Evil filling that niche. And also DON'T say "make another Ganon slot". I'm done with different incarnations of characters shoehorned into being separate slots.

After Bowser left that niche in Smash 4, I just can't stand the idea of another character taking steps out of it. Slow, methodical brawlers CAN work; they just need further tweaking.

 

[leprechaunlink727]

Honestly, I think at this point a float like Peach's and Dead Man's Volley as his regular special would basically "fix" him. He'd have better horizontal recovery and approaching options too, so he'd play a lot better. Warlock Punch would be missed but I think it's a fair trade for making him a more viable character. Also change his up tilt into something useful, maybe that can be Warlock Punch instead.

 

[BonafideFella]

I had a concept for a projectile that could keep the semi-clone aspect whilst bring something fresh to the table.
What if you could charge Warlock Punch and at full charge, you could unleash an energy projectile reminiscent of Dead Man's Volley?

 

[Standlord]

But who's going to fill the niche of the slow, methodical puncher who demands that the player be as arrogant as he is? Who's going to fill the niche of the puncher who demands that the player approach the opponent, with just being close to the player being a practical instant-death radius?

And DON'T say Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. I want a major King of Evil filling that niche. And also DON'T say "make another Ganon slot". I'm done with different incarnations of characters shoehorned into being separate slots.

After Bowser left that niche in Smash 4, I just can't stand the idea of another character taking steps out of it. Slow, methodical brawlers CAN work; they just need further tweaking.

As I said many times, you don't necessarily have to take away that niche from Ganondorf, and still being able to declone him or at least represent him well. How many times will you make me repeat myself? Just read my first post on the thread.

Yeah, "don't say what I don't want to read". I'll say it: yes you can have Black Shadow take his place and then you can have Ganondorf completely free for a new moveset. Btw he is a villain too. Also, yes, you can have alternative movesets too in another slot. You suggested that yourself on another thread, are you going back on your own words just to argue with me? Honestly, if I was in charge of the game I wouldn't do that myself, but as a hot fix I would take it with an alternative skin and another name (akin to the different versions of Link).

The thing is, Ganondorf's moveset not working and being consistently in low tiers because his moveset was designed for someone else and you have to force Ganondorf to be the way it is to not be a complete clone is not his only problem. Only competitive players really care about that (and its an alright complaint on its own). The big problem is him being a clone. Is him not being himself. And again, you can keep the playstyle and change the moveset.

 

[leprechaunlink727]

But who's going to fill the niche of the slow, methodical puncher who demands that the player be as arrogant as he is? Who's going to fill the niche of the puncher who demands that the player approach the opponent, with just being close to the player being a practical instant-death radius?

And DON'T say Black Shadow or Blood Falcon. I want a major King of Evil filling that niche. And also DON'T say "make another Ganon slot". I'm done with different incarnations of characters shoehorned into being separate slots.

After Bowser left that niche in Smash 4, I just can't stand the idea of another character taking steps out of it. Slow, methodical brawlers CAN work; they just need further tweaking.

Hear me out... What about Mr. Sandman? Moves being really heavily telegraphed but being near instant death if you fail to dodge them would actually represent a Punch Out fighter pretty well. He's not the same caliber of villain as Ganondorf but he's still an arrogant and menacing character who's been in most of his series. And he actually does punch in his games.

 

[Louisacommie]

Magic gannondorf all the way

 

[pap64]

Looking at KKRool makes me realize just how bad Ganon's representation truly is.

Everything about KKR forms an eloquently written love letter to his fans.

Ganondorf is a "Dear John" note written on the back of a used bar napkin by comparison, the author making absolutely no effort to conceal just how little they care.

They should just echo-clone Black Shadow from Falcon to keep the slower, more powerful version of him and turn Ganondorf into an actual evil wizard instead of the evil martial arts expert he is now.

And seeing just how many amazing things Sakurai can do with the far less source material he had with KKR (who hasn't had anywhere near the number of appearances), I'm sure his Ganondorf moveset would be amazing.

Well to be fair, K. Rool was a character that had been requested for as long as the series has existed. He was a character that legit won the ballot, not Bayonetta like they lead us to believe. They KNEW the character was requested. They KNEW that fans wanted him in the games for almost TWO DECADES. So I felt Sakurai HAD to make K.Rool as amazing as he could because he couldn't afford to half ass a character that has been requested for so long.

Clone-nondorf, as we all know, is the product of a rushed development cycle that was so bad the late Satoru Iwata had to step in and help finish the game, so they artificially expanded the roster by creating the clones, with Ganon being one of the oddest choices for a Falcon clone ever. Brawl could have been the chance to de-clone him, but I have the gut feeling that too many people had mained Clone-nondorf to the point that any changes would have been a disrespect or a disappointed, so Sakurai tried to do the whole "best of both worlds' and made him a semi-clone that was heavier than Falcon.

Ultimate Ganondorf, while not THE Ganondorf that represents his series, at least looks and feels like less of a clone and more like himself. Yeah, he wasn't a martial artist but a magician that in Wind Waker wielder two katanas, but at least I feel considering the Clone-nondorf stigma is still too strong, they seem to be doing an OK job of making him less and less of a clone with each entry, Ultimate being his most Ganondorf to date.

 

[leprechaunlink727]

This debate comes up every game and while I honestly think it would be great to have a more representative moveset, his "slow but one false move and you're ****ed" playstyle does suit his personality.

I think it's also helpful not to think of him as a Captain Falcon clone, exactly. Captain Falcon has the moveset that he does because his body type was well suited to the original movesets developed for Smash when it was still the prototype "Dragon King", a free-for all fighting game without the Nintendo mascot element. This is somewhat speculative, but when you look at screenshots of the original prototype, the characters look and attack like Captain Falcon:

So it's fairly reasonable to speculate that Captain Falcon's moveset was the very first ever developed for Smash Bros, making Ganondorf a sort of "Akuma" to Falcon's "Ryu". So in the context of Smash Bros as a mascot fighter representing characters from different franchises, it may seem like a snub for one of Nintendo's most iconic villains to be treated this way, but in the context of Smash Bros as a fighting game series with its own distinct history and mechanics, being the "Akuma" of the original character is actually kind of an honor. But with the advances already being made modding other Switch games, plus the fact that this game probably carries over a lot of its file architecture from Sm4sh, you can bet this game will be cracked open like a walnut within a year of release and decloned Ganondorf movesets have consistently been one of the first things modders add since Brawl. So be patient.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf, like other clones, was starting to get decloned in Brawl which was good; but what I think pissed a lot of people off was how all changes halted in Smash 4. I'm glad Sakurai is changing him again now, and my hope is that with each subsequent installment (assuming we get more), Ganondorf slowly becomes what we all envisioned.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, so far Sakurai has never straight up completely revamped a veteran fighter so this is probably the best we can hope for. It's just a shame that some changes got delayed an entire installment (other than some cool custom moves).

 

[SmashBro99]

Just give us some swappable specials, the peach float idea was brilliant, that with deadman's volley as a projectile is perfect.

I'm glad they are trying but like this should have been done a long time ago.

 

[Boartobewild]

Hear me out... What about Mr. Sandman? Moves being really heavily telegraphed but being near instant death if you fail to dodge them would actually represent a Punch Out fighter pretty well. He's not the same caliber of villain as Ganondorf but he's still an arrogant and menacing character who's been in most of his series. And he actually does punch in his games.

This sounds actually more logical and reasonable than all people who without any second thought advocate Black Shadow to overtake his Falcondorfset. At the very least Sandman has more qualities and attributes like you stated, along with being a way more memorable and worthy addition, that would fit this role.

Let's be honest guys, how many people know anything or even care about Black Shadow to have him personally playable in the Game for the sake of being included for his "character" and "charm", rather than taking the duty or rather fall of taking over Ganon's lowtier moveset and properties?!?! Next to none I bet, but it's pretty much not gonna happen either way simply because;

1) As you quite cleary demonstrated, none of Captain's Falcon's moveset has any relevance to his own games/canon, they only needed someone to take over and make use of this model and moveset and he was the best candidate to fill said role, besides Ganon. Though if you ask me, given what we know of Ganon, his moveset makes more sense for him than Falcon, as we at least know that he'd be very well capable of using this sort of fighting style, but personally has next to no reasons for doing so. So how in the hell would it make any sense to give a semi clone fighting style, that has ever so slightly been updated to fit it's intended user, to a character that does neither share any of Cpt. Falcon's nor Ganon's characteristics and features?! Also does anybody really think, that Sakurai would either abandon Ganon's current moveset from Ultimate, which has garnered the most praise and attenion of any iteration so far, (the swordsmashes, general improvements and all) and just stick a modified past version like brawl, Sm4sh onto Black Bull, or just without any care, thought and effort in the world give the Ultimate one to Black Shadow?!?

2) Nintendo themselves don't give a **** about F-zero as a Franchise at this point, (Captain Falcon by himself has enough attention to make another F-zero title possible) but the developers simply don't have any creative spark or concept that would warrant another game, they have exhausted most if not all the potential the series had to offer.
So from a business and game developing standpoint, why would you risk alienating and enraging a portion of the Fan base, as miniscule as that part of the community actually is, if you have nothing to gain from it? Sakurai also isn't the sort of creator to just take any random char from already represented series and slaps a halfway decent semi-clone moveset on them, for the hell of it. If that were the case we would have gotten Waluigi by now, not that he wouldn't deserve his own moveset, but if he hasn't managed despite all the outcries/support from fans to become playable, how big do you think the chance of ever seeing Black shadow, who hasn't even gotten an Assist trophy so far, actually is???

So once again, I'm more leaning, in favour of the option and solution of keeping this ultimate Oot Ganon and simply adding and creating another Ganon moveset/style based on other Games, much like Link, though how to name them is another question that I don't feel like answering.
But my ideal scenario is Ww/Hw dual sword wieding Ganon and Phantom Ganon Trident Style as seperate own individual characters with entirely new moves and also different mobility, weight and other traits stats.

 

[S_B]

Just give us some swappable specials, the peach float idea was brilliant, that with deadman's volley as a projectile is perfect.

I'm glad they are trying but like this should have been done a long time ago.

It's sad because back when Melee first debuted, I remember making the exact same suggestions that would've turned Gdorf into a modern day "echo fighter" via assembling his moveset from moves that were similar to those he had in OoT, such as Peach's float ability and Samus' charge shot for a ball of darkness that he could charge up and launch at enemies (which could be hit back and forth like in OoT).

I've never mained Ganondorf, but I'm still upset on behalf of people who do because KKR's moveset is a perfect example of just how well Sakurai can capture the essence of a character, yet poor Gdorf finally got thrown a bone in the form of....the sword he had in the Spaceworld tech demo that he never actually wielded in any canon LoZ game.

I mean, Bowser's representation still isn't great (how about spitting slow-moving fireballs like in the original SMB instead of the throwaway trash move that is firebreath?) but Ganon still doesn't even have a move from any of his games (maybe his final smash, but who cares?).

Maybe the next director on SSB6 will finally declone Ganon once and for all...

 

[Idon]

Make him a warlock or make him a dark-swordsman or dual blade duelist. Hell go make him a trident-wizard or a dual greatsword monster. Or keep him as a Captain Falcon clone completely.

Enough of this half-and-half ****. If you want to change him, commit, and make an echo to take his original place. I don't care who.

 

[Deleted member]

It's sad because back when Melee first debuted, I remember making the exact same suggestions that would've turned Gdorf into a modern day "echo fighter" via assembling his moveset from moves that were similar to those he had in OoT, such as Peach's float ability and Samus' charge shot for a ball of darkness that he could charge up and launch at enemies (which could be hit back and forth like in OoT).

I've never mained Ganondorf, but I'm still upset on behalf of people who do because KKR's moveset is a perfect example of just how well Sakurai can capture the essence of a character, yet poor Gdorf finally got thrown a bone in the form of....the sword he had in the Spaceworld tech demo that he never actually wielded in any canon LoZ game.

I mean, Bowser's representation still isn't great (how about spitting slow-moving fireballs like in the original SMB instead of the throwaway trash move that is firebreath?) but Ganon still doesn't even have a move from any of his games (maybe his final smash, but who cares?).

Maybe the next director on SSB6 will finally declone Ganon once and for all...

Honestly, a LOT of the older characters have trash movesets that don't represent them well. Some have gotten better over the years, like Link and Luigi, but when you start with such a bad moveset, it takes a while to fix.

This makes me...want to start a thread.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

If the next smash game is an enhanced port of Ultimate; I could imagine them focusing their work on decloning characters/ giving Ganondorf an overhaul.