Ganondorf can Flame Choke onto the stage from a ledge-drop

[Clai]

I wanted to put this in my thread about Ganon's ledge-planking, but posting in there might have led to necro-posting issues. Anyway, this may or may not be old stuff, but as the title states, Ganondorf can Flame Choke back onto the stage from a ledge-drop. The most immediate thing coming out from this is that Ganondorf is no longer forced to ledge-hop in order to use a Flame Choke onto the stage, and since ledge-hopping is a lot more risky than ledge-dropping, I label this as a good thing. The procedure is really simple:

- From the ledge, press down and immediately jump. You should see Ganon's head go over the stage.

-At the peak of Ganon's mid-air jump, Flame Choke toward the stage.

Now how would this be more useful than ledge-hop into immediate Flame Choke? I'll list the benefits and drawbacks:

Benefits:
- You don't get punished as hard for messing up (At worst, you Flame Choke at the ledge and then re-grab the edge. You'll still get punished, but it's not as bad as having your ledge-hopped Flame Choke fly over the opponent, who's charging a Smash attack waiting for you to land)
-If you see your opponent rushing at you, you can whip out an aerial to send him away since you don't use Flame Choke until the peak of your jump.
-The Flame Choke will always have a soft landing, and I also think the landing takes care of RCO lag as well.

Drawbacks:
-Since you have to wait until you reach the peak of your jump, this is ultimately slower than the ledge-hop into immediate Flame Choke method.
-You're still vulnerable to hits that have a low hitbox, and those attacks can send you at a nasty angle.

Speaking of these ledge techniques, I have been considering writing up a guide about Ganondorf on the ledge. Most people see Ganon on the ledge as a big weakness, but with these new ideas being implemented, I think Ganondorf is a very capable ledge fighter. I think a guide would be helpful since a lot of people don't know about all of Ganon's ledge options, and those that do might not know how to use them all (I know it took me a long time to figure out how to use the Flipman). Of course, I'm not going to litter the forum with this if you think the people don't need it, so I'll ask your opinion.

 

[Z1GMA]

Daum, I gotta try this.

EDIT: It appears to be way more difficult than the Flipman.

Clai, how many times in a row can you perform it without fail?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Yeah I just tried this as well, it can be stupidly hard to perfect the timing but Isee the benefits.

Also you should put in the drawbacks that it doesn't go as far as the ledge-hop version.

 

[PK-ow!]

You still can't do it on PS1.


Of course, PS1 will find a way to kill you with the ledgejump technique still. Off the opposite blast zone.



Ganon in on the Ledge is a must-have, Clai. As it is, we're dead. Worse than Marth who is just trapped. We are, against a sufficiently good opponent with our meta right now, dead. You should just kill yourself to get to work on the next stock sooner.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon is dead on the edge?

strange.. i quite enjoy being on the ledge...

 

[Superspright]

Yeah...if someone really wants to be an ***, they can cover any option. Just stand back away from your instant uair ledgedrop and your getup attack, and make sure to intercept you if you jump up.

It just sucks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cool find, but if this is harder than a flipman, I can't do this.

And I'd rather do the airdodge getup.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon in on the Ledge is a must-have, Clai. As it is, we're dead. Worse than Marth who is just trapped. We are, against a sufficiently good opponent with our meta right now, dead. You should just kill yourself to get to work on the next stock sooner.

I know what you are saying here... but (imo) thats just not a fair assessment of Ganon's ledge game.

have all of you forgotten about DAD's double jump cancel or whatever he called it. after ledge hopping you can use your double jump right away and use an aerial immediatly after..

not to mention, ledge drop Uair/Fair..

Flipman...

Ledgehop -> Aerudo...

If they get in your face i just grab them off the edge and take them down to hell..

Ganon is a scary mofo on the edge, he obviously has his pitfalls (RCO lag, horrid landing lag on non AC aerials) but i think he is far from helpless... When im on the edge I invite people to try to fark with me, if they get close they are going to get Uair'd or Aerudo'd..


But getting back to DAD's double jump cancel from the ledge... I was messing around with that awile back and it works wonders... after jumping from the ledge if you hold the control stick away from the stage and use the second jump right after it puts you in a good position to get back on stage safely.


I <3 Ganon's ledge game, then again... i live for the spikes so that might just be my natural habitat...

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Honestly, I really did not expect that vBrawl Ganondorf could do that.

I was wondering which is more safe: Flipman or Flame Choke onto the stage from a ledge-drop ?

I <3 Ganon's ledge game, then again... i live for the spikes so that might just be my natural habitat...

Me too.

 

[Clai]

You still can't do it on PS1.

I found out that you don't have to DI toward the stage in order to do this technique, so it's perfectly possible to do it on PS1. In fact, it's highly advised that you DO NOT DI TOWARD THE STAGE, because doing that will certainly kill you on stages like PS1 and Lylat.

@Z1gma- As of now, it's very difficult to do consistantly, but that's likely due to the fact that we just don't know the timing of this yet. I'm sure once I work on it for a while, I'll be able to get this down straightforward.

@A2ZOMG- Personally, I find this technique easier than the Flipman, since you don't have to work the control stick as much as you do for the Flipman. I still can't Flipman on the left edge at all As long as you press down and the jump button almost instantaneously, Aerudo'ing to the stage is a matter of getting the timing right.

As for the guide, I'm working on a video that should cover all of Ganondorf's ledge-drop options. Having a guide isn't much if you don't have video to demonstrate what could be done.

 

[Z1GMA]

I still can't Flipman on the left edge at all

And I can't seem to get this Ledge Drop -> Aerudo down.
Sweet irony.
We should switch for a while.

 

[Dre89]

Sorry but what's a flipman?

 

[@HomE]

Sorry but what's a flipman?

Lagless Uair onto the stage from the ledge. I can't do it... but its something like press down DI up and towards the stage and do Uair asap...

its pretty sexy, Z1gma is a monster

(Z1g invented the flipman)

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Lagless Uair onto the stage from the ledge. I can't do it... but its something like press down DI up and towards the stage and do Uair asap...

its pretty sexy, Z1gma is a monster

(Z1g invented the flipman)

Yeah but it's advisable that you DI away from the ledge rather than DI down, it makes the flipman much easier.

 

[Jocky]

Wow, I thought this was common knowledge, most of the time it's a nice surprise but difficult to pull off consistently

 

[Z1GMA]

Yeah but it's advisable that you DI away from the ledge rather than DI down, it makes the flipman much easier.

imo, it's easier to perform the way HOME explained.

Hanging on the left ledge:
Drop without fastfalling by gently pressing down on the Control Stick, then emidietly press Up+A, then emidietly press and hold the Control Stick Northeast.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

imo, it's easier to perform the way HOME explained.

Hanging on the left ledge:
Drop without fastfalling by gently pressing down on the Control Stick, then emidietly press Up+A, then emidietly press and hold the Control Stick Northeast.

That's pretty cool, I didn't know Ganon could flipman that way. I just saw Ganons doing that and tried it out by pushing back instead.

 

[PK-ow!]

Lagless Uair onto the stage from the ledge. I can't do it... but its something like press down DI up and towards the stage and do Uair asap...

But it's almost never lagless, because of RCO.

If you stall on the ledge with anything other than a drop and a jump, you'll give yourself RCO from the Gerudo or Dark Dive, too.



The flipman is a UAir onto the stage that autocancels the UAir / avoids the UAir's landing lag. You're still not safe.


If you actually had no lag, Ganon would be sick on the ledge, I agree.

 

[thexsunrosered]

But it's almost never lagless, because of RCO.

If you stall on the ledge with anything other than a drop and a jump, you'll give yourself RCO from the Gerudo or Dark Dive, too.



The flipman is a UAir onto the stage that autocancels the UAir / avoids the UAir's landing lag. You're still not safe.


If you actually had no lag, Ganon would be sick on the ledge, I agree.

yeah, I think a lot of people forget that. You guys have to make sure that if you recover with a Dark Dive that ANY of our fancy **** is pretty much nulled. Air Dodge, Aerial->Stage (not just flipman, but Fair[not lagless] and Nair[not lagless] as well, Bair and Dair[both lagless] too, but if you use those you're just dumb), even a ledgehop on stages like battlefield leave you very vunlerable. Your best option is to probably cover yourself by planking once or twice(Drop back Uair->immediate gerudo) or even Dark Dive scarring. Then, if you're under 100%, get up attack. It's disjointed like the mother of snakes utilt and will clear your path, letting you get your jump in, before they can punish, to clear your lag. Alternatively, if they just won't let of the edge, you can ledgehop and wizkick down, but only if you're sure it will hit or are confident that it will poke.

ALWAYS REMEMBER TO JUMP ON STAGE AFTER RECOVERING WITH AERUDO OR DARK DIVE. THE RECOVERY CARRY OVER LAG (RCO lag) WILL **** YOUR ***, ESPECIALLY YOUR UP+B


Edit: After rereading that, I think you should put it in Gleams old guide PK. If not the most important aspect of survival with Ganon, it's definitely one of the top. I feel like a lot of Ganons still don't understand this, so if you put it somewhere near the beginning I think it would help a lot of people.

 

[Z1GMA]

I use to "Flipman -> Stage" even when the opponent is out of reach, just to get rid of my rco ASAP
Sometimes I use "Airdodge -> Stage", too, but I find it a little harder to perform than the Flipman.

@PK: If you hit the opponent with the Flipman, it doesn't matter that much if you carry RCO :]

And one other thing, if one manages to grab the ledge without beeing forced to use Sybian and/or Aerudo, Flipman -> Gerudo/iDA is ****!

One of my favourite ways to get rid of the RCO (if you haven't been able to do that already), is to:
Jump -> instant Aerudo AWAY form your opponent.
It looks nooby, but it's quite effective if you're out of other options.

@Red8: This: "ALWAYS REMEMBER TO JUMP ON STAGE AFTER RECOVERING WITH AERUDO OR DARK DIVE. THE RECOVERY CARRY OVER LAG (RCO lag) WILL **** YOUR ***, ESPECIALLY YOUR UP+B"
--- Should be the first line in all our stickies, lulz.

EDIT:
One thing that I find extremely weird is why Uair Auto Cancels via Flipman even though the animation is waaay from finished...
You can't Auto Cancel Uair that soon in the animation if you do it shorthopped on stage...
Why is this? Anyone?

 

[Kishin]

^Probably some weird ledge physics that causes you to hover a bit before you reach the stage. That's just my guess.

 

[Clai]

If you actually had no lag, Ganon would be sick on the ledge, I agree.

That's why I think that Ganondorf players should retreat to the edge if they're feeling too pressured. Limiting yourself to your ledge options is a lot safer than risking messing up and getting hit somewhere that you'd most likely get gimped.

If I have Dark Dive RCO lag, I usually like to either ledgeplank or just side-B stall for a bit. Reverse Side-B stalling, if you're playing on a stage that supports it, is awesome because your opponent is more likely to just wait for you to get back on stage than risk trying anything fancy against you.