Game and Watch Matchup Export: Snake

[Attila_]

a few things:

- this mu is definitely in snake's favour with an lgl, but probably even without one
- gw spends most of his time trying to get inside grenades, snake defends completely
- nade punishes build up over time, although gw can retain the lead from one solid juggle
- gw bair is bad in the mu, only good for poking shields. abuse it and eat snake bair
- snake's tilts aren't good in the mu; gw should remain out of range unless he is juggling
- gw bair fully spaced traded with snake sourspot utilt
- gw upB makes grenade camping a lot harder to hit with
- juggle with lots of uair. this makes landing a real pain, and makes wavebounce nades useless. keep an on wavebounced c4s though
- gw planking is a pain to deal with
- yi is probably gw's best stage, just because the ledges hinder snake's edgeguarding game
- frigate can be really good for snake if it spends most of its time on the second transformation; 50:50 chance of getting screwed here
- if rainbow/brinstar are allowed in your region (lol) then take snake to either of those. otherwise, yi/delphino/bf are good choices
- ban fd. because you have to. otherwise, halberd/ps1 can be good for snake

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think Snake can bair us if we do an ascending bair, but a falling one is unsafe for sure.
Would you guys always fair his upB or would you attempt a sideB at lower %? It's an easy, pretty much guaranteed sideB in that situation.

 

[Gardex]

I've started using dair.

One of the only characters that you can spike with ease as G&W.

 

[Attila_]

and ascending bair? all bairs give plenty of room for sdi and punish, provided youre contacting with more than a few hits. good snakes should be punishing that at least occasionally.

@gardex: only bad snakes get spiked. dair is only legit when there is a platform between you and snake.

 

[-Ominous-]

^If you're too far out, sometimes you don't really have any other option than to take a Dair.

If Bair is spaced properly you'll be safe from shield dropped nades. Fair can be safe too I think, but I think the nade has to be on the ground.

 

[UTDZac]

The URL you had for my video against razer was incorrect. I fixed it.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

The URL you had for my video against razer was incorrect. I fixed it.

Thanks. :D I probably wouldn't have noticed for a week. Too bad highways don't have wifi.

 

[Gardex]

and ascending bair? all bairs give plenty of room for sdi and punish, provided youre contacting with more than a few hits. good snakes should be punishing that at least occasionally.

@gardex: only bad snakes get spiked. dair is only legit when there is a platform between you and snake.

You got close to no options if G&W is right in front of you while you're using your cypher(which was the situation I was talking about). All of your options in avoiding the dair will result in you having to let go of the cypher and therefor not be able to recover.(Until you start duelisting it up, but that's never a good situation to be in)

 

[Attila_]

if gw is right in front of a recovering snake, then he's bad and recovering incorrectly.

 

[Gardex]

Um there are plenty of situations where that occurs. Often after a dsmash or dtilt when Snake has to gain som height offstage.

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it is something to keep in mind when situations deem it possible.

 

[Attila_]

in which case, he should back off and use c4 to recover.

 

[Gardex]

Theory crafting like this is pointless. I've played against multiple high-leveled Snakes who are way better than me, where I've been in situations where I was right in their faces. Imagine a G&W nair stringing Snake, then landing on a platform and dtilting snake off it. He is now falling diagonally downwards, and close to every Snake will up b right away. When this happens, there's always a short amount of time where Snake can't do ****. THis is the time-window where you can hit snake with whatever you feel like, wether it's fair, judgement or dair.

You're saying that the Snake should back off? We're talking about in the air here. Snake isn't the most mobile character, and c4 recovering is risky, especially when your opponent has a good enough recovery to be able to follow snake offstage and try to footstool the explosion.

 

[-LzR-]

Also that bair SDI thing is so damn theorycrafting too. It's not like you can always just SDI just like that. When you are ascending it's so much harder to SDI and even if you do you are most likely below G&W at the moment meaning you'll whiff. A landing bair is easily punished especially if badly spaced.
And don't give me that Praxis how to beat turtle bull****.
And I agree with Gardex about everything because he is awesome.

 

[Attila_]

that right there. that was theory craft.

what i'm saying is that if a snake is using cypher in your face, then he's made a mistake. somewhere along the line, he did something that he shouldn't have.

and good snakes shouldn't do that.

 

[Rizen]

We need videos. We also need more people who MAIN G&W or Snake for these talks. I'm trying to support these as much as possible but I can only give so much, which isn't a lot :/ .

 

[SFA Smiley]

that right there. that was theory craft.

what i'm saying is that if a snake is using cypher in your face, then he's made a mistake. somewhere along the line, he did something that he shouldn't have.

and good snakes shouldn't do that.

Because every GW is bad?

Consider that the other player isn't completely incompetent and forced that situation on the snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ecF4goNEBw&t=2m20s

 

[Praxis]

Also that bair SDI thing is so damn theorycrafting too. It's not like you can always just SDI just like that. When you are ascending it's so much harder to SDI and even if you do you are most likely below G&W at the moment meaning you'll whiff. A landing bair is easily punished especially if badly spaced.
And don't give me that Praxis how to beat turtle bull****.
And I agree with Gardex about everything because he is awesome.

Yes, you can. Bair is terrible.

I SDI it pretty darn consistently if hit, although I normally prefer to space it to throw attacks through the moment the head tips.

It's not theorycraft- I spent a year going around the country beating every notable G&W of the time and got tired of constantly having to explain it to people when I made the video.

 

[Attila_]

Because every GW is bad?

Consider that the other player isn't completely incompetent and forced that situation on the snake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ecF4goNEBw&t=2m20s

that situation was hardly forced...

ally made the mistake of trying to bair through uair. then he thought he landed and refreshed his jump, realising later that he didn't, cyphering low. and i don't know why he didn't cypher back after getting knocked out of the first one. it was a better option.

but yes, 3 mistakes were necessary for that to happen. none forced, all player based. and even then, it didn't end in a spike.

 

[Damittom]

that situation was hardly forced...

ally made the mistake of trying to bair through uair. then he thought he landed and refreshed his jump, realising later that he didn't, cyphering low. and i don't know why he didn't cypher back after getting knocked out of the first one. it was a better option.

but yes, 3 mistakes were necessary for that to happen. none forced, all player based. and even then, it didn't end in a spike.

If no one made a mistake, a would get a grab and continue to techchasing and reading the snake until killing the snake.

In other words, no one is perfect therefore your argument is invalid. (and rather pointless)

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I see snakes do it fairly often. It's not really a reason not to use bair, but it is something to be aware of.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, you can. Bair is terrible.

I SDI it pretty darn consistently if hit, although I normally prefer to space it to throw attacks through the moment the head tips.

It's not theorycraft- I spent a year going around the country beating every notable G&W of the time and got tired of constantly having to explain it to people when I made the video.

It's especially bad if used against a grounded opponent, but a well spaced ascending turtle is good. Also you play Peach who can perform a frame 3 bull**** nair the moment you get out so you can kinda do it more easily.
This is along the same level of theorycrafting how our smashes will never hit a competent opponent.

 

[Attila_]

smashes punish mistakes.

read an airdodge? get an fsmash. yes.

but i maintain that if snake is getting spiked, he's either bad, or playing badly.

if you can force gimps, then gw can do something that not even mk can do.

 

[-LzR-]

I guess that's why no one never ever gets gimped at high level of play, right?

 

[Rizen]

Note about summary on post 1:
"Snakes enjoy trading damage, they will hold grenades when you come to hit him. They can kill us very early with utilt, but we can kill them early (for a Snake player at least) as well with a good read."
Snake can hold a grenade and shield and not take any damage. Snake does get the better deal from trading hits but you should clarify that shielding with a nade isn't a trade.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

It is a trade because you hit him and blow up the nade. The shielding with nades would not be a trade, but we shouldn't be getting hit by that.

 

[Attila_]

I guess that's why no one never ever gets gimped at high level of play, right?

its pretty rare.

 

[Wilmenz]

in which case, he should back off and use c4 to recover.

G&W will then proceed to upair the C4 recovery, and Dair you anyway.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

G&W's are one of the few characters that can follow MK offstage, if we can gimp MK, I think we can gimp Snake.

 

[Attila_]

G&W will then proceed to upair the C4 recovery, and Dair you anyway.

what?

not sure how this could follow up the situation at all.

please reread the above posts and try again.

 

[Rizen]

Note about summary on post 1:
"Snakes enjoy trading damage, they will hold grenades when you come to hit him. They can kill us very early with utilt, but we can kill them early (for a Snake player at least) as well with a good read."
Snake can hold a grenade and shield and not take any damage. Snake does get the better deal from trading hits but you should clarify that shielding with a nade isn't a trade.

It is a trade because you hit him and blow up the nade. The shielding with nades would not be a trade, but we shouldn't be getting hit by that.

Snakes will hold nades and shield when we come to hit them. They won't trade when there's no point. If we hit them and detonate the nade Snake was holding it means that Snake doesn't know how to shield.

Speaking of pointless, these MU discussions are 95% arguing/reinventing the wheel/talking without proper experience. Only and handful of qualified G&Ws are active on the forms. We have 1 Snake player who people are arguing back and forth with.
I'm for bring traffic to the G&W forums but except for what pro G&Ws have said these are not helping.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

There's a reason I haven't put any of these arguements up. They are going technical vs. theory, and both are true, we can gimp, but it isn't as easy as it sounds.

And when I say trade, I'm saying they don't shield. The nade will explode if we hit it with our bair (very easy) and we can't avoid taking damage even if we space the bair fully. I mean that they let us hit and have the grenade blow both of us up, and because they kill so early, they find it worth doing. It happened in UTDZac's game on the videos here, and the commentators were talking about it.

 

[Wilmenz]

what?

not sure how this could follow up the situation at all.

please reread the above posts and try again.

You said that if G&W is able to Dair Snake's cypher(Or ending up in front of Snake while he isn't able to do anything) then Snake is doing something wrong if Snake tries to C4 recovery, G&W will be able to up air Snake and remove the momentum given by the explosion only leaving him with the hitstun, Snake will be forced to upb or go for a C4 recovery again. (In the following video you will be able to see what i'm talking about, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHDjMXNZ7HY)

 

[Attila_]

that video demonstrated mistake after mistake.

why do you consistently cypher towards gw? it's a really obvious error.

i said gw can only get the spike if snake makes a mistake. and you made plenty.

 

[-LzR-]

It's not like Snake has any options in that situation.

Edit: Wait, you don't mean edgeguarding, but spiking Snake out of Cypher? That I can agree won't be happening often. If this is the case, I agree with you.

 

[Wilmenz]

that video demonstrated mistake after mistake.

why do you consistently cypher towards gw? it's a really obvious error.

i said gw can only get the spike if snake makes a mistake. and you made plenty.

I only wanted you to pay attention to how G&W's upair interacts with the C4 recovery...

 

[-LzR-]

Doesn't it send Snake up anyways?

 

[Gardex]

It sends people up when they aren't already having any momentum. When they are launched by something like C4, uair will stop them dead in their tracks AND they will keep their hitstun

 

[-LzR-]

So it's exactly like Ness's Magnet in that case? Cool.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Yes.

Surprised you guys didn't know that.

It's boss as **** in doubles

 

[-LzR-]

I know how it works in doubles, but I just though it always cancels all momentum and then sends them up.