Game and Watch Matchup Export: Snake

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daniel7001
#1
Snake



Matchup: 40:60 (-1)

Basic Info:
Snake is one of those characters that become easier to fight as you get better at the game. His killing power is fast and comes out early. He destroys on the ground and can force approach very easily. He has a very gimpable recovery, but is very heavy as well. He can be easily juggled, but don't expect aa free stock just by getting him into the air. He has good range as well as a phenomenal DACUS. He has many good camping tools which all rack damage very well.
Videos:
UltimateRazer vs UTDZac (1+2): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkbDPRMmYxo
Vinnie vs Ally (1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ecF4goNEBw
Vinnie va Ally (3): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbpOhXg9r4
Vinnie vs Ally (4): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y8n46WbZD4
Vinnie vs Ally (5): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyqIRsalzMQ
Penta vs False: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVlII3mRJg&feature=plcp

Strategy:
  • We can juggle Snake quite easily, a combination of nair and uair will result in a lot of damage for an airborne Snake. The uair is used to push him up when he takes out a grenade, and nair is used to give him lots of damage.
  • Be careful with the bair, Snakes like to SDI out of it and hit you with their own bair.
  • Snakes enjoy trading damage, they will hold grenades when you come to hit him. They can kill us very early with utilt, but we can kill them early (for a Snake player at least) as well with a good read.
  • To fight a Snake well, we have to play with his zones. We don't want to be passive, but we also don't want to braveheart it in, because both of those way end badly for us. We have to stay close to him, but not so close that he can fair you, and then punish his whiffed moves and attempts at setting up c4 and mines.

Stages:
Assuming the stagelist from Unity 2.1
Strikes
1. Final Destination
2. Yoshi's Island
3. Smashville
Runner-Up - Pokemon Stadium 1


Counter Pick
1. Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar
Runner-Up - Frigate Orpheon


Ban
1. Final Destination
2. Halberd
Runner-Up - Pokemon Stadium 1

 

Rizen

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#2
My most current G&W vs Snake game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW62R58ESRA&feature=plcp

A habit I see in Snakes is they don't expect characters who normally don't rush attack to blitz at the start and you can land a quick hit as they pull a grenade.

Snake's disjointed attack reach is ridiculous; I think that's the biggest reason we lose so hard.
His only exploitable time is when he's in the air so juggle him and go for interceptions.
more later...
 
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#3
Juggling snake is pretty easy, but you have to predict all of the b-reversing when he is on his way down. We can kill Snake earlier than they may be used to. His grenades are scary, but our mobility can be used to jump around them and stay safe.
 
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#5
Good point, but it's still a good start, having an outdated video is better than no video.

I'll look at that match later, a bit lazy right now

:phone:
 

Rizen

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#6
I'd CP RC because our superior air game and a lot of Snake's traps are lost with the scrolling stage.

This sounds weird by in my experience Snake isn't great on Brin; his bad air speed makes platform hopping risky, he can't DAC or dash attack approach because the breakable stage middle and the platforms aren't positioned to cover him from above. His explosive are confined enough to work against themselves and Snake too.
Snake can KO freaky early because the low ceiling but G&W does have enough power to get Snake too. Snake's C4 is useful to him on Brin; he can drop and detonate it in the air or place it on the top platform for when the acid rises. The explosion reaches far beneath the platform it's on.
Brin gives G&W great juggling opportunities and acid combos. The breakable stage elements extend hitbubbles which should help G&W's air game more than Snake's attacks. Since Snake has not problem KOing G&W anyway, G&W's juggling and killing boosts are a better trade off.
If I'm wrong, please correct me about Brin.

more later...
 
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#8
I'll put them up, I was just trying to get a video up before I went to study for a while, and then I proctastinated hard. I'll take it off and put those on when I have the time. I'm gonna be out of town, and possibly out of internet for a week or 2.

Despite being old, I kept UTDZac's game to show the different playstyles. If there are more recent videos, post em and I'll change it out.
 

Gardex

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#11
1. Nair him
2. He pulls out nade, expecting you to hit it
3. Uair him
4. He's forced to throw it away or take it like a man
5. Nair him again
6. ??????
7. Profit
 

-Ominous-

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#12
I think you kinda treat it similar to Olimar. Get him in the air to get some damage on him. I'm not too good at this matchup, so I don't have much to say...
 
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#13
I've only played one snake main like.. once as snake, so I'm in the dark too, but I would assume it's pretty similar, only you have to be more careful due to them just pulling out a grenade and holding it when we get close.
 

Gardex

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#14
Something I did against a really good Snake in Germany, was to just play really safe and patient.

Then he ftilted my shield.
And I gave him 60%.

Basically just looking for openings. Snake's zoning and camping is tough to break, but just finding a small weakness will really pay off. Keeping him in the air with uair and nair isn't hard at all.

Rushing in also works, as long as you don't do it all the time. In game 3 against the snake, i just dashed in and dealt 70% after 4 seconds(ending it with a spike, but he survived it :()

When you're at high percentage, the snake may or may not fish for kills. If he does, just shield and punish everything with fair or bair(just don't get grabbed, up b away if you get uncomfortable).

Strike FD, then YI, then SV
You want to play on Lylat or BF.

Ban FD or Halberd.
CP Rainbow, Brinstar/Frigate
 

Rizen

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#16
1. Nair him
2. He pulls out nade, expecting you to hit it
3. Uair him
4. He's forced to throw it away or take it like a man
5. Nair him again
6. ??????
7. Profit
^It's pathos funny how on this post is. That step 6 is really hard to successfully achieve because you need a few great reads to start an offensive and Snake's reach/power/spamming all murders G&W.
Snake's Ftilt1 starts frame 4 (same frame as G&W's jab) and Utilt frame 6. Do NOT challenge Snake's tilts.
In the air you don't want to be 12:00, 3, 6 or 9:00 direction related to Snake because he has powerful disjointed Uair/Bair/Dair and Fair/Nair cover a large area in front of him too but don't reach as far out. So if Snake's in the air above you, Nair/Uair from 5:00 or 4:00 rather than 6:00. (am I explaining this okay? :/ ).
In case anyone doesn't know if Snake is grabbed out of his UpB and NOT pummeled or thrown a grab release will happen and Snake can't do anything to recover except drop a C4 and detonate it to blow up himself (literally). (G&W and Sonic have very similar properties, btw).
G&W has to walk the razor's edge until he finds an opportunity to juggle; except when being pressured in the air Snake wins pretty much everything over G&W:urg:.
Snakes like to drop C4s and detonate the (another reason not to be 6:00 under him), drop missiles and hold grenades to cover their landings. G&W has to pressure Snake hard in the air because Snake is far from helpless.
 

-LzR-

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#17
I believe thsi is a -1. It's not as bad as people with the lol 08 mentality think. Uair rapes Snake hard. You can't do **** on the ground, focus on getting him in the air, but you should not commit to anything. Wait for him to tilt stuff, fair OoS and then proceed to get your free damage. In case he tries to play smart with trying to use nades when landing, uair and he is pretty much screwed.
If you can hit a 9 against his cypher you are awesome and deserve to be awesome. Thank you.
 

Rizen

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#18
I'd say -1 or -2. Snake can force approaches, kill easy and early and still drop missiles and C4s when being Uair juggled. You can't shield tilts in the air and his DAC and explosives give him great ground control over flat surfaces. G&W has trouble finding the magic step 6 Gardex mentioned and Snake is a big threat to any bad choices during G&W's search.
Sharking & elements like platform poking are helpful for putting Snake in a bad spot. Even when juggling him, Snake has high aerial attack KO power if G&W messes up.
 

Gardex

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#19
^It's pathos funny how on this post is. That step 6 is really hard to successfully achieve because you need a few great reads to start an offensive and Snake's reach/power/spamming all murders G&W.
Snake's Ftilt1 starts frame 4 (same frame as G&W's jab) and Utilt frame 6. Do NOT challenge Snake's tilts.
In the air you don't want to be 12:00, 3, 6 or 9:00 direction related to Snake because he has powerful disjointed Uair/Bair/Dair and Fair/Nair cover a large area in front of him too but don't reach as far out. So if Snake's in the air above you, Nair/Uair from 5:00 or 4:00 rather than 6:00. (am I explaining this okay? :/ ).
In case anyone doesn't know if Snake is grabbed out of his UpB and NOT pummeled or thrown a grab release will happen and Snake can't do anything to recover except drop a C4 and detonate it to blow up himself (literally). (G&W and Sonic have very similar properties, btw).
G&W has to walk the razor's edge until he finds an opportunity to juggle; except when being pressured in the air Snake wins pretty much everything over G&W:urg:.
Snakes like to drop C4s and detonate the (another reason not to be 6:00 under him), drop missiles and hold grenades to cover their landings. G&W has to pressure Snake hard in the air because Snake is far from helpless.
Snake's aerials are hardly disjointed; not even close to G&W's disjoints. Being in front of him(while he's in the air) is a favorable position. Being above him is also not bad, because your dair beats everything he can throw at you. You shouldn't be listing Snake's dair, at all.

You just said that we shouldn't be directly below snake. What?
What is snake gonna do? Dair us while descending? Then hit the ground with massive lag and let us grab/smash him? You got ages to react if he drops a c4.

-1 or 0

EDIT: Wow rofl at the deep explanations you guys have about step 6. That is just an internet joke.
Ookok. Step 6: Repeat.(He's still in the air)
 

Rizen

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#20
Snake's aerials are hardly disjointed; not even close to G&W's disjoints. Being in front of him(while he's in the air) is a favorable position. Being above him is also not bad, because your dair beats everything he can throw at you. You shouldn't be listing Snake's dair, at all.

You just said that we shouldn't be directly below snake. What?
What is snake gonna do? Dair us while descending? Then hit the ground with massive lag and let us grab/smash him? You got ages to react if he drops a c4.

-1 or 0

EDIT: Wow rofl at the deep explanations you guys have about step 6. That is just an internet joke.
Ookok. Step 6: Repeat.(He's still in the air)
Snake's legs are always (somewhat) disjointed during attacks and his Bair is actually really good. Bair does outreach us. Most times I've seen Dair it's not descending; Snake uses it a little like Ganon's Dair.

I wrote this: "In the air you don't want to be 12:00, 3, 6 or 9:00 direction related to Snake because he has powerful disjointed Uair/Bair/Dair and Fair/Nair cover a large area in front of him too but don't reach as far out. So if Snake's in the air above you, Nair/Uair from 5:00 or 4:00 rather than 6:00."
Not that Snake has better disjoint in the air. Snake is weaker at the angles I mentioned because his air movement sucks, his hit bubbles can't attack there without him moving and G&W has great air speed so it's smarter to not wait under him but instead to jump forward at him. Why give him time to reverse grenade or FF Bair when G&W can hit Snake from an angle that Snake's attack don't cover?
You really don't want to be right above or to the side of Snake because Uair/Bair are threats with power. Like if a grenade launches both characters up, Snake will take a shot at G&W if he's positioned right.

Snake won't FF Dair or just be juggled to death lightly or other stupid things. He will try to land and cover his landing. If 6 is repeat than you've entirely overlooked Snake's spam and ground games.

The Snakes I've played were a higher skill level than my G&W so the MU probably is -1.
 

-LzR-

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#21
Snake is just the kind of a character you can juggle for ages and beat his landings and edgeguard but if you **** up you eat 40% or die. Weird character.
 
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#22
I've only played snake a couple of times, but from what I can see, playing with his zones is essential. This is an area that gnw shines in, we can use our amazing mobility to drop in and out if his zones and draw out a ftilt or an utilt, and then punish with one of our aerials. We have to be very patient in this matchup, if we just run in we will eat 2 nades and a ftilt, which is almost half a stock for us. If we can get them impatient and aggressive, we can **** them up.
 

SFA Smiley

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#23
I've only played snake a couple of times, but from what I can see, playing with his zones is essential. This is an area that gnw shines in, we can use our amazing mobility to drop in and out if his zones and draw out a ftilt or an utilt, and then punish with one of our aerials. We have to be very patient in this matchup, if we just run in we will eat 2 nades and a ftilt, which is almost half a stock for us. If we can get them impatient and aggressive, we can **** them up.
I don't agree with playing patiently. What's the point, you're just gonna get outcamped.

I say go ultra aggro, never let up, don't let him plan things, zone you, control the stage, just be relentless and aggressive but be smart... and fast at the same time

I know that's easier said than done, but it's a disadvantaged matchup for a reason. If you play too slowly he's just gonna nade roll everything you do, you have to juggle, mixup, force him into the air and do it fast

of course these are my opinions, I've been ***** before for being too agressive but I've also been ***** more by trying to out-patient snake. It just isn't gonna happen.
 
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#24
I mean more that we have to play with them and try to bait aggression, if we go too aggro we well eat a a nade, but if we try to out camp too much the same well occur.
 

Rizen

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#25
I don't agree with playing patiently. What's the point, you're just gonna get outcamped.
I agree.
Of course agro =/= reckless. Snake needs to establish explosive setups and makes himself vulnerable when he readies one. He's much more dangerous once he has nades and traps out so we should pressure him a lot before he has the chance. Pressuring doesn't mean attacking in a frenzy; don't make yourself vulnerable but don't retreat or let Snake have breathing room either.
I think this is what people meant anyway.

Snakes like to plant Dsmash mines after KOing so I use part of my returning invulnerability to detonate them. Other characters can use Snake's explosives against him but Snake has better control over the situation and probably will benefit the most.
 
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#26
Patient =/= outcamp

I mean that we can't just run up and try to hit him without thinking. If we do a braveheart charge towards him we will just get punished. We have to slowly jump around his nades to approach him, and only run up to him if he plants c4 or a mine.
 

-Ominous-

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#27
You have to be patient at times, but aggro at others. You have to wait for an opening before you go aggrieve or you'll take a lot of damage.
 

Rizen

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#29
I think this is what people meant anyway.
^ I think we're all phrasing the same thing differently but do have the same idea.

The only part I disagree with is "slowly" jump around nades. We need to approach and pressure fast because anytime we're not, Snake is camping and getting explosives into play.
 
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#30
^ I think we're all phrasing the same thing differently but do have the same idea.

The only part I disagree with is "slowly" jump around nades. We need to approach and pressure fast because anytime we're not, Snake is camping and getting explosives into play.
Yeah, I just feel like avoiding everything is helpful. It takes a while for him to put mines into the ground, and if we are aware enough, we can punish that move. C4 comes out really quickly anyways.
 

SFA Smiley

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#33
Agressive doesn't mean reckless c-stick spam. You have to mix in grabs too, and aggressively bait

I just don't see at all why you'd wait in this matchup, Ike is a character you wanna bait and punish. He's got lotso cooldown on his moves

That doesn't work on snake because he actually camps you, but is weak in the air, therefore you have to keep him there. Force him on your turf (the sky) and reduce the amount of time you're playing on his (the ground)

When you're being patient you're getting ****ed up. When he's being patient he's still technically ****ing you up because you're letting him cover himself with grenades and ****

When you're being aggressive you win, because he can't plant things, when he's being aggressive you're still winning

When you guys are neutral he's winning anyway because he's heavier and technically stronger since you'll die earlier.

Honestly, the only thing I see that makes sense here is going full on aggro, if you aren't you're losing and he can't out aggro you.
 
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#34
They'll just hold a grenade in hand and trade damage. If I had access to my desktop and stuff I'd draw out what I mean. Snake does well up close and far away, but there is an awkward place in between.
 

SFA Smiley

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#35
I just said I don't mean reckless c-stick spam. That WILL make you blow up grenades.

If you grab him you don't set off grenades though.

But you still have to pressure him aggressively. My friend Lance does this all day against me. All he does is grenade and roll back it's effective against GW but you still gotta stay on him or it just gets worse.

You can stalk him right outside is bubble agressively and make him shield so you can Grab>Uthrow, or Up-B away but NOT reset the situation (he wins in neutral situations) You do wanna stay in that mid range but you want to do it with a metaphorical finger on the trigger because you're losing when you aren't. You can't outwait him. He has 2 grenades, 2 static explosives, and huge hitboxes. When you're in his face he has grenade and grab and defensive options you should be paying attention to because you're being aggressive.

nother edit: even then I'm not saying it's easy, i'm just saying there's not really any point I see at all to playing patiently. I could be wrong, i don't consider myself a master at the matchup or anything, can someone explain the other perspective to me?
 

Rizen

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#37
If Snake's shielding with a nade, can G&W Bair his shield with the tip of Bair and avoid the explosion?

It should be noted Snake's grab has good reach and his Dthrow techchase game can let him land fatal tilts. It's safest to stand up and quickly UpB out of there but Snake will probably expect that from G&W too.
We can't trade damage with Snake because unless we get a good Smash read he survives much longer than us.
 
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