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Frame perfect CGs Guide (Adding Visual Guide to process) *in progress
- Thread starter DeLux
- Start date
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I don't think anyone broke it down enough. That's a pretty valid description and I'm sure that you'd have to be braindead to not understand it.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
[12/10/2010 2:27:06 AM] EA先生: http://www.mediafire.com/?l4c3zugo84bxp
Roller
Smash Legend
=/ uh oh
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Roller, did you put my **** in Cyrillic?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
I'm going to do a long retraction on why you SHOULDN'T use bthrow > fthrow repeated CGs if you can afford not to. I was under the impression that bthrow > fthrow did more damage and was unmashable because of buffering. After doing some math, I thought I was right. Unfortunately, I didn't do all the math correctly. So I need to fix that mistake.
Before we begin, please look at this post: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7281893#post7281893
It's all the throw frame data for the climbers on every character provided by my hero.
Now I want us to take a look at CGing Bowser:
Character - Hitbox / Total / IASA
Bowser - 22 / 57 / 48
All Characters - 24 / 54 / 50
Bowser - 45 / 69 / 60
The first set of data is the Bthrow while the other next set is the Fthrow for all characters.
Now in order to find out of a grab is able to buffered directly out of throw, one must take in the following must be true:
(IASA1 - Hitbox1) + Grab Frames < (Hitbox2 + 1)
So in the case of Bowser, in order buffer Bthrow Regrab into Fthrow the formula would read:
(Note: Bthrow is now Throw1 and Fthrow is considered throw 2)
(48-22) + 6 < (24 + 1)
32 < 25
Since 32 frames is not less than 25 frames, by math, it is impossible. You would have to allow for atleast 7 frames of mash time in order to theoretically regrab.
Now let's examine the Fthrow regrab to Bthrow:
(50 -24) + 7 < (22 + 1)
33 < 23
So when going from Fthrow to a Bthrow, it's impossible to buffer. The grab frames on this number is 7 because of pivot grab. You'd have to allow for 10 mashable frames in order to regrab successfully.
Now let's move onto the bthrow > dthrow alternating CGs-
Bthrow > Dthrow math:
(48 -22) + 6 < 46
42 < 46
Therefore with Bthrow to Dthrow, you can true buffer it. Not only that, you have a 4 frame gap with the other climber in which you can input spacing corrections.
Dthrow > Bthrow math
(60 - 45) + 7 < 23
22 < 23
Therefore dthrow > Bthrow is in theory bufferable. However the range in this case is 1 frame of spacing correction. Given that this means you would have to buffer a pivot grab and the spacing might be an issue that needs correcting in particular on bthrow transfers, I feel it is unviable to true buffer a bthrow when CGing.
(Side note: I have a feeling the 7 for the grab frames in the formula ought to be a 9 because of roll cancelling. I haven't tested it so I'm going to leave it as it stands.
TL;DR > You can't really truly buffer cgs to be unmashable.
Before we begin, please look at this post: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7281893#post7281893
It's all the throw frame data for the climbers on every character provided by my hero.
Now I want us to take a look at CGing Bowser:
Character - Hitbox / Total / IASA
Bowser - 22 / 57 / 48
All Characters - 24 / 54 / 50
Bowser - 45 / 69 / 60
The first set of data is the Bthrow while the other next set is the Fthrow for all characters.
Now in order to find out of a grab is able to buffered directly out of throw, one must take in the following must be true:
(IASA1 - Hitbox1) + Grab Frames < (Hitbox2 + 1)
So in the case of Bowser, in order buffer Bthrow Regrab into Fthrow the formula would read:
(Note: Bthrow is now Throw1 and Fthrow is considered throw 2)
(48-22) + 6 < (24 + 1)
32 < 25
Since 32 frames is not less than 25 frames, by math, it is impossible. You would have to allow for atleast 7 frames of mash time in order to theoretically regrab.
Now let's examine the Fthrow regrab to Bthrow:
(50 -24) + 7 < (22 + 1)
33 < 23
So when going from Fthrow to a Bthrow, it's impossible to buffer. The grab frames on this number is 7 because of pivot grab. You'd have to allow for 10 mashable frames in order to regrab successfully.
Now let's move onto the bthrow > dthrow alternating CGs-
Bthrow > Dthrow math:
(48 -22) + 6 < 46
42 < 46
Therefore with Bthrow to Dthrow, you can true buffer it. Not only that, you have a 4 frame gap with the other climber in which you can input spacing corrections.
Dthrow > Bthrow math
(60 - 45) + 7 < 23
22 < 23
Therefore dthrow > Bthrow is in theory bufferable. However the range in this case is 1 frame of spacing correction. Given that this means you would have to buffer a pivot grab and the spacing might be an issue that needs correcting in particular on bthrow transfers, I feel it is unviable to true buffer a bthrow when CGing.
(Side note: I have a feeling the 7 for the grab frames in the formula ought to be a 9 because of roll cancelling. I haven't tested it so I'm going to leave it as it stands.
TL;DR > You can't really truly buffer cgs to be unmashable.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Good read.
/filler.
/filler.
Roller
Smash Legend
Sieguest
Smash Master
New Years Present?
After being tangled with Christmas stuff and procrastination. I finally did some work on this. I've done Mario and Metaknight. Mario's is kind of gimpy because I tried to consolidate everything with as few fields as possible. MetaKnight's seems like it goes on forever but that's only because using formulas makes it go by faster instead of doing all the math by hand so I had to create more fields...
http://www.mediafire.com/?uc2n9599p80t2j5
(copy and paste into your address bar lol)
A lot of the beginning stuff probably won't interest you, the reason it was there was for my own convenience in making the formulas.
The spreadsheet breaks down how many frames MK (or Mario) has to mash in all the situations I could think of. Yes I covered situations that you probably wouldn't ever concern yourself with, but for people new to climbers it will show that it's probably not a good idea to start CGs with bthrow.
Note: A negative number in the field indicates that you have that many frames to correct spacing.
The spreadsheet also shows the inputs per frame the opponent needs to input in order to mash at any given percent up to 300%.
Note: A negative number in this field doesn't really mean much as they're derived from the fields that had negative answers from "Frames to mash blah blah blah". Assuming you buffered the throw no need to worry. Seeing as how the inputs per frame to mash will change per frame you wait if you didn't throw, there's no way I could put a more "useful" number in place of the negatives.
One other thing to make note of... I did account for shield buffering frames when considering Popo bthrowing to Nana after Nana dthrows or bthrows. This is accounted for only on MK since you don't need to shield buffer to use certain CGs on Mario.
Some Conclusions:
-If you grab MK at low percents, dthrow CG him to about 30% or so to be safe. Then you can use alt throws if you want to.
-(For new climbers) Please don't start CGs with bthrow, it's way too many frames to wait and any good masher is probably going to mash. Dthrow is the best throw to start CGs with.
-You can make Nana buffer a dthrow after any throw from Popo (except uthrow obviously) and be able to get a regrab.
-As kind of a complement to Lux's earlier post, you can't buffer CGs to make them truly unmashable. There just comes a point where it's highly impractical to be able to mash out of the CG (Unless you're not human or something...)
-No worries about that break method K Prime brought up in one of our biggest matchups! :D
I'm too tired to think of anything so blah.... There it is if you're interested.... I'll be updating the link as I continue adding more characters onto it. I'll also work to make it a bit more user friendly lol.
After being tangled with Christmas stuff and procrastination. I finally did some work on this. I've done Mario and Metaknight. Mario's is kind of gimpy because I tried to consolidate everything with as few fields as possible. MetaKnight's seems like it goes on forever but that's only because using formulas makes it go by faster instead of doing all the math by hand so I had to create more fields...
http://www.mediafire.com/?uc2n9599p80t2j5
(copy and paste into your address bar lol)
A lot of the beginning stuff probably won't interest you, the reason it was there was for my own convenience in making the formulas.
The spreadsheet breaks down how many frames MK (or Mario) has to mash in all the situations I could think of. Yes I covered situations that you probably wouldn't ever concern yourself with, but for people new to climbers it will show that it's probably not a good idea to start CGs with bthrow.
Note: A negative number in the field indicates that you have that many frames to correct spacing.
The spreadsheet also shows the inputs per frame the opponent needs to input in order to mash at any given percent up to 300%.
Note: A negative number in this field doesn't really mean much as they're derived from the fields that had negative answers from "Frames to mash blah blah blah". Assuming you buffered the throw no need to worry. Seeing as how the inputs per frame to mash will change per frame you wait if you didn't throw, there's no way I could put a more "useful" number in place of the negatives.
One other thing to make note of... I did account for shield buffering frames when considering Popo bthrowing to Nana after Nana dthrows or bthrows. This is accounted for only on MK since you don't need to shield buffer to use certain CGs on Mario.
Some Conclusions:
-If you grab MK at low percents, dthrow CG him to about 30% or so to be safe. Then you can use alt throws if you want to.
-(For new climbers) Please don't start CGs with bthrow, it's way too many frames to wait and any good masher is probably going to mash. Dthrow is the best throw to start CGs with.
-You can make Nana buffer a dthrow after any throw from Popo (except uthrow obviously) and be able to get a regrab.
-As kind of a complement to Lux's earlier post, you can't buffer CGs to make them truly unmashable. There just comes a point where it's highly impractical to be able to mash out of the CG (Unless you're not human or something...)
-No worries about that break method K Prime brought up in one of our biggest matchups! :D
I'm too tired to think of anything so blah.... There it is if you're interested.... I'll be updating the link as I continue adding more characters onto it. I'll also work to make it a bit more user friendly lol.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
How did you get the inputs per frame to mash data?
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
Probably Total inputs needed to mash/Frames available based on the grab formula.
And Jesus Guest, this chart is way more detailed and way more awesome than I imagined. I'll ask around to see how many input it's possible to put per frame of mashing AND if buffering mashes has an affect and then we can verify for sure about breakability.
Also, not to add more work, but you should make some sort of key for the title of columns at the top. Like label what you mean by "mashing frames for XX". So we don't have to look at the column XX lol. Lazy like that
And Jesus Guest, this chart is way more detailed and way more awesome than I imagined. I'll ask around to see how many input it's possible to put per frame of mashing AND if buffering mashes has an affect and then we can verify for sure about breakability.
Also, not to add more work, but you should make some sort of key for the title of columns at the top. Like label what you mean by "mashing frames for XX". So we don't have to look at the column XX lol. Lazy like that
Sieguest
Smash Master
Inputs needed to mash/Frames to mash before "X" action
I'll work on it. Hopefully I'll have a pretty user friendly method of navigating the chart by the time I finish the rest of the characters.Probably Total inputs needed to mash/Frames available based on the grab formula.
And Jesus Guest, this chart is way more detailed and way more awesome than I imagined. I'll ask around to see how many input it's possible to put per frame of mashing AND if buffering mashes has an affect and then we can verify for sure about breakability.
Also, not to add more work, but you should make some sort of key for the title of columns at the top. Like label what you mean by "mashing frames for XX". So we don't have to look at the column XX lol. Lazy like that
Sieguest
Smash Master
Then EA should pick up the solo dthrow CG thread again. 
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Because of stale factors, yes. CG to 75% is sexy.
