Foster J.
Smash Ace
Not to mention Ness' Nair is fast enough to get out of Utilt spam, and probably has better hitboxes than Fox Nair
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Fox's bad match ups
- Thread starter Kanzaki
- Start date
dahuterschuter
Smash Journeyman
I find heavies the worst because:
1. Fox's killpower is fairly low and relies entirely on reads on incompetent airdodging
2. Fox has little off-stage game and basically no gimping tools and since every character but Little Mac and Doc in this game can return to stage from off-screen
3. Fox is light and so he'll be blasting off again at low percents against the heavy powerhouses
1. Fox's killpower is fairly low and relies entirely on reads on incompetent airdodging
2. Fox has little off-stage game and basically no gimping tools and since every character but Little Mac and Doc in this game can return to stage from off-screen
3. Fox is light and so he'll be blasting off again at low percents against the heavy powerhouses
I.S FoxMkloud
Smash Ace
I don't think Fox's killpower is low. It's just that he has some limited options when it comes to setup. Yes, his killpower is not what it used to be, but I find killing with Fox fairly easy when you can land it. So, I'd say, landing a killmove is a bit of problem with not many setup uncovered just yet.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
It's more or less just looking for that opening, or being hungry enough to off Stage with the Nair or Bair for killing.
I mean, you trip people with you tilt starting at 70, if they don't tech you just Usmash them, or throw them up, bait the Uair and try to cover the landing.
I.S FoxMkloud
Smash Ace
Indeed. More or less fishing for it I suppose. I don't have problem with going real high percentages to kill them. My only concern would be taking more damage myself while doing that. Also, these depend on them teching or not. So, this is kind of tricky but nonetheless, mixed up, would work I suppose.
Ness should not be any problems for any Fox's. Its a very easy match up for Fox honestly. Fox is way too fast for ness. Its pretty much playing keep away from ness and not letting him get close.
Now Luigi and diddy are easily Fox's toughest match ups. Luigi is just way too good. You can't punish him with combos, moves have little to no lag. He is just overpowered in mmyt opinion
Now Luigi and diddy are easily Fox's toughest match ups. Luigi is just way too good. You can't punish him with combos, moves have little to no lag. He is just overpowered in mmyt opinion
Foster J.
Smash Ace
You're not giving Ness any credit there, considering he's got decent tools for zoning, and can effectively camp at the ledge whenever you're around 70-80 to just Bthrow you out as Fox is the lightest he's ever been.
Luigi has terrible air speed, so chasing his landings are pretty easy if you ask me, but he requires propper spacing to not get Fair'd.
And I'm not so sure about Diddy, Diddy is a tough match up for sure, but it's Nakat's go to Diddy slayer apparently, so maybe he knows something we don't
I would give credit to ness if it was about 2-3 week. I was p'd off about ness being able to kill fox at 70-80% off a throw. But after figuring out that fox is just way too fast for ness and that I just need to play keep away, punish when there is a opening and blast him with lasers I haven't lost to a ness yet and have been destroying him. Ness just relies on throws and pk fire. Don't get caught in those and know that his aireals have priority over fox avoid those and you are golden. Its honestly a easy match up and you don't let ness get you to 70-80% first if you play the right play style against him. Even than u can force him from the ledge. U should not be getting grabbed by ness the whole game he is way too slow.
Luigi is one of the toughest match ups for fox. I played several Luigi's and all have been hell. His air speed is a good thing for him his aireals are so fast that u can do about 2-4attacks before hitting the ground depending on the jump. His smash attacks start fast and have very little lag. He can spike you. Kill at a decent % with a throw. His recovery is good. Doesn't have a hard time getting the kill. He's med weight. Good sspeed. Only bad thing is his dash attack . you can't combo him like that, its one hit than run no follow ups.
Diddy only problem I have is his Uair. If that was Nerf which it should I would have no issue with him. Only solution is not to get grabbed by him because that's how he gets the Uair but that's much easier said than done since he is much faster than ness.
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moyshe
Lazer Fox
if anyone was watching Apex today, Nakat's Fox vs 6WX was a pretty huge video for the sonic vs fox match up.
Timbers
check me out
what happens in a situation where you are at 80% and Ness is at 40%, and Ness sits on the edge? He can sit here for 5 minutes if he wants, because he has the percent lead and you have to force him to change it. You can't pressure with lasers as he'll absorb. Fox has terrible spacing tools and the risk of opening up Ness isn't nearly as deadly as him correctly reacting to your rather linear approach.
It's an actual problem. It's why Fox has to camp out Diddy and Luigi, because their throws are far too punishing to Fox. You just can't force an approach against Ness, which is terrible.
Lol that's why u play around with the ness. You want him to absorb because that will let you punish him for doing that and charge at him when he is doing that. And game plan doesn't change. If you are at 40% and ness is at 80% you doing something wrong and need to change up what you are doing. But the game plan needs to be the same. Play keep away and punish than create space again. Short hop a lot in the match to stay away from pk fire. Its not a tough match up if you are playing this way against ness.
Actually, Ness doesn't just rely on grabs and PK Fire. He's got a lot more options going for him. Blasting Ness with lasers will only have him absorb them. Once they're absorbed, he can lag cancel his PSI Magnet with a jump, dodge, grab, roll, attack, or special. And depending on how far you're shooting lasers will determine whether or not Ness will use his PSI Magnet. Relatively close up, Ness can go in for an attack or grab because Fox's laser does have a bit of lag when he puts it away. Not so extreme to the point it's noticeable, however. Toon Link and Mega Man, both of which who play "keep away" with Ness, have an easier time against him, and their projectile options are much more of a threat, and these characters are not remotely as fast as Fox, so I wouldn't even put speed in as a factor unless you're Sonic, which is a character that relies on pressuring his opponents through feints. Playing keep away with Ness will not benefit Fox in any way. Realistically, neither one has to approach. But in the long run, this isn't a one-sided match up as you make it sound.
Timbers
check me out
Ness has much less endlag on downB than Fox lasers lol
"real Fox mains never take damage"
refer back to original post lol
tl;dr Fox does well in an advantageous state against Ness, but Ness' own advantageous state is much more beneficial for Ness. Fox can't force Ness into kill setups, like Ness can. Fox can't wall out Ness or break pressure, or edgeguard nearly as well as Ness can. It's probably an even spread, but you make the MU sound hella free lol
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The match up is about 60-40 or even 55-45 fox. I make it sound easy because I haven't ran into a ness player that has given me any trouble since changing up my approach to him. Since changing up I only lost once to one real good ness player at a tourney playing friendlies but I won 3-1 matches. Yes ness use to give me trouble I had the hardest time beating him but I have been beating down ness players since. I played just like how I said. U don't shoot lasers at a distance just enough that u can avoid his attacks. And u are not blasting like a mad man at ness. Its one or two than move. . The good ness player was not absorbing any of my blaster shots because they weren't predictable and I didn't give him too much space. U don't want to play toe to toe with ness because of his grab being able to kill u at such a early % so playing keep away and punishing when u get an opening is a benefit of fox. Engage and disengage in the fight. Find an opening punish than move. And yes speed is a big factor against ness. It helps in the engage and disengage tactics. Pk fire and grabs are not his only moves obviously but those are his bread and butter moves. He gets most of his kills relying on the grab. Pk fire is used a lot by ness players. One or both of those moves are going to be used a lot by ness players. They both can be punished for being used a lot. Short hop over pk fire, hitting ness right when he is about to do the move or blocking it up close are great ways to punish him. I don't have to explain how to punish the grab. Limit those two and than ness is limited to what he can do. His dash attack is punishable and the rest of his ground game is not hard to avoid. His side aireals are the only things u have to watch out for, only things I'm worried about since I know I can limit his ground game.
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luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
Pretty sure Nair and Fair are much more ness's bread and butter moves from neutral game than grab is, thats his finisher.
You would probably have a much better time convincing people g-sword if you were able to get some vids up.
You would probably have a much better time convincing people g-sword if you were able to get some vids up.
ZomBiehn
Semi-Pro
I'm a Olimar main and I've never once had issues combating any fox users, I think anyone the can predict a forward B or Upsmash can win a fight with one
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
sick troll bait.
If you play fox and you are using side B mindlessly, who cant beat you?
If you play fox and you are using side B mindlessly, who cant beat you?
Rhus
We're going top speed!
You make it sound like Fox is a highly predictable character with a linear moveset that is incapable of mixups.
That's...not true.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
God I love getting a reflect on Olimar mains! Shame it's so hard to approach Olimar if you ask me
I SO agree, in fact Ness Nair has more priority than Fox Nair doesn't it? Not to mention that even if you were to Utilt him, around the 2nd hit he'd be knocked high enough to be able to use it, since it comes out so quick.
And offstage he'll just hit you with a PK thunder in case you're going Foxfire
Yea you are rightright I would have to upload a video to show that this is not a tough match for fox. And I mean for Ness's ground game, grab and pk fire. But that's what I was saying is side and neutral airs are the only thing u have to watch out for. And those can be punished
I just played a ness with the same staregy and destroyed him. Use lasers but don't fire enough that he can absorb.
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It seems you play against strange Fox players. An Olimar is as far as I can tell easy to kill with Fox. It's not easy to land kill setups on him, but Olimar himself is helping a lot because reflecting any smash attack will be a hard punish for every Olimar player.
Olimar can make quite some damage with his pikmins on a Fox player, but his killoptions are very limited as Fox can reflect already all the smash attacks. So there's only his aerials(depending on two pikmin types in general in order to kill), his throws (with a blue pikmin) or his side tilt. (so getting rid of the blue pikmin is a good idea as he then will only have killmoves being useful at close distance)
Honestly I feel like Olimar is an easy one for Fox if you keep in mind that you can reflect smash attacks. I think you are even able to reflect pikmin toss, but I'm not 100% sure.
@ DiddyMatchup
So after all you can make some damage with up-tilt combos, especially if Diddy loses his jump. Next point: His dair is "slow", you can get your up-air started before he can make his dair. This allows you to keep him in the air or even kill him with an up-air. And you have to make sure to go for the gimp if he has only his up special to recover anymore. These are the most important weaknesses I figured out. Oh and another important thing: keep in mind as long as he has a banana in his hand, he won't get on your nerfs with up-airs as he will have to throw the banana first. You should even keep the reflector in mind.
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ArguablyTasty
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2015
- Messages
- 5
I'm switching from Greninja main to Fox, since Greninja got merged too hard, and so I've been practising vs comp on 9- no For Glory until I get combos down a bit better. The matchups I have trouble with are Rosalina, Diddy Kong, and Ganondorf. Mostly Ganon- all his attacks seem to have higher priority, he can KO at like 40%, some attacks have no startup lag, and Wizard's Foot is incredibly hard to work around. Now, it could be since I habitually go for the Usmash as a killmove and as a combo starter, which has 0 forward range compared to what I'm used to, and more endlag, and get punished for it, but I spent 45 min doing matches vs Canon and haven't won one
Use a lot of jabs to grab against ganon
Hope this helps
http://youtu.be/boBONPqihx4
Next will be some videos of me beating down different ness players showing how I handle that match up.
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Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
I main Kirby,
And To me, just like in brawl, Kirby has a slight advantage, I rarely ever run into good fox players, but the ones I do run into can apply some decent pressure to Kirby.
Kirby has low ranged attacks something fox can use to his advantage, which is made worse by how awful Kirbys approach is and his mobility overall, but Kirby has fast attacks and one of the best edge guarding games, and can combo fox to high percents because of his fast falling speed.
Utility alone, can get fox to at least like 30% and then you can either go for an up smash for more damage, or Uairs for even more combos.
Fox's only projectile is useless against Kirby because he can crouch under it safely, which basically forces fox to approach Kirby.
Kirby is decent at punishing fox as well and if you can get him offstage at low percents, you almost essentially take his stock because the way Fox recovers is VERY predictable.
Kirby is very light which gives fox the advantage for his rather low Kill power overall, and the fact fox outspends Kirby and slightly out ranges him can be a bit of trouble, but even Kirby can stand his ground against this.
Overall Kirby has a slight advantage, with more KO power, combos, edge guarding and defensive play.
And To me, just like in brawl, Kirby has a slight advantage, I rarely ever run into good fox players, but the ones I do run into can apply some decent pressure to Kirby.
Kirby has low ranged attacks something fox can use to his advantage, which is made worse by how awful Kirbys approach is and his mobility overall, but Kirby has fast attacks and one of the best edge guarding games, and can combo fox to high percents because of his fast falling speed.
Utility alone, can get fox to at least like 30% and then you can either go for an up smash for more damage, or Uairs for even more combos.
Fox's only projectile is useless against Kirby because he can crouch under it safely, which basically forces fox to approach Kirby.
Kirby is decent at punishing fox as well and if you can get him offstage at low percents, you almost essentially take his stock because the way Fox recovers is VERY predictable.
Kirby is very light which gives fox the advantage for his rather low Kill power overall, and the fact fox outspends Kirby and slightly out ranges him can be a bit of trouble, but even Kirby can stand his ground against this.
Overall Kirby has a slight advantage, with more KO power, combos, edge guarding and defensive play.
RBreadsticks
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2015
- Messages
- 152
Don't play fox at all but I was wondering what the general consensus is on his overall worst matchup. I play ROB and Link so fox is a huge MU issue for me
Foster J.
Smash Ace
These are just my experiences with those 2.
Link: You want to jab a lot, it's long deadly and neat, so try to take note of where he is, and jab. If he rolls behind you a lot your Spin attack is great for repelling him, other than that keep the bombs and boomerang going.
Rob: It's all about creating that wall, Doing aerial where he spins the booster pad around, keep the gyro out, and keep throwing lasers at him. You have the killing throw advantage against Fox, and even if he survives the Dthrow you can Uair after him generally. On any stage with a platform you can probably just Dthrow fox around 90-100 and kill him.
Your general play style needs to be around keeping Fox out, don't let him get in and juggle you, and therefore it's VERY important to not camp at the ledge.
Timbers
check me out
Likely Diddy. The boards haven't really discussed too many MUs yet. His other less than favorable MUs are probably a jumbled mess of ZSS/Sheik/Falcon/Luigi/Yoshi.
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
How about my mains
Peach, Kirby, Zelda?
Peach, Kirby, Zelda?
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Diddy atm is what we've discussed and agreed to be a hard matchup for Fox.
I don't find him bad enough to say it's his worst though. Fox can jab-trap him above 40% and that basically seals the stock if you're frame perfect with the jab lock. If not, it builds damage. Jab -> jab 2 leads into the U-smash as well.
I think that ZSS is the hardest MU for Fox in this game.
@
Dee-SmashinBoss
We're currently discussing Kirby:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...ussion-thread-week-4-sonic-ness-kirby.393061/
I still think it's even, not in Kirby's favor. Feel free to provide your reasoning and points here though.
I don't find him bad enough to say it's his worst though. Fox can jab-trap him above 40% and that basically seals the stock if you're frame perfect with the jab lock. If not, it builds damage. Jab -> jab 2 leads into the U-smash as well.
I think that ZSS is the hardest MU for Fox in this game.
@
Dee-SmashinBoss
We're currently discussing Kirby:http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...ussion-thread-week-4-sonic-ness-kirby.393061/
I still think it's even, not in Kirby's favor. Feel free to provide your reasoning and points here though.
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