Fox's bad match ups

[Soshii]

Against Falcon, you really need to watch your spacing because he has a longer reach than you do. Don't over-commit and be extra wary off-stage where Falcon totally dominates over Fox. If you're stuck in a frame trap with Falcon's up-airs, trade with nair to get out of it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Sorry, double post, delete this

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can anyone give me advice against ness and peach? Those are the two that just rock me every time. Seriously my only wins against a good ness or peach are purely lucky

I have trouble with these too. Do not challenge their N-airs at all. It's like in the matchup, they all have a move that can seriously mess you up during your jab combos.

I find more tolerable, as her threatening attacks all have significant lag that lets us go in with dash attack and keep her up. I fear her more when I go Shulk, tbh. Once you pop her up, stay on her and chase from the ground. Try to get her in the air when she doesn't have a turnip, so she'll have less options coming down. Her floatiness really works against her here, as Fox is a character that excels at not letting the opponent come back down. Do watch out for her coming down with F-airs, D-airs, and B-airs: you can get close as she's landing, shield the incoming aerial or roll away, then punish her landing. If you're fighting on stages with platforms, you can do the same by faking her out with a Short Hop (remember characters can't go through platforms if they're using and aerial) then punishing B-air or U-air.

is a whole different story though. His PK-fire is a very good tool against Fox since his fastfall speed makes it harder for him to DI out of it, and the size of Ness PK thunder got massive, you can no longer edgeguard him easily thanks to the Thunder going through in the first couple frames, all his Smashes hit much harder, and his Aerial game is death. Only try to reflect the thunder if you're onstage. For PK Fire, you can run up at him and use SH -> Down-B to do this fast. Shielding next to Ness is not generally a good idea unless you know he's going to attack you, because a throw from him puts him in a very advantage as he makes it very hard for Fox to come down onstage.

These are just general things to keep in mind though, I do well against the local Peaches in Toronto who are close to my level, but tbh I don't really have good luck in the Ness matchup either, I find that more tolerable with Shulk who can challenge Ness with better range in the air and cut through his projectiles.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Damn. My bad again. Real sorry

 

[M@v]

Well I figured out ZSS, so that's off my list of bad mus. As a side note, CP her to Lylat if they don't ban it (which I suspect most will in time when they realize how bad it is for them). Its not a good stage at all for ZSS imo.

 

[elmike]

Well I figured out ZSS, so that's off my list of bad mus. As a side note, CP her to Lylat if they don't ban it (which I suspect most will in time when they realize how bad it is for them). Its not a good stage at all for ZSS imo.

why?

 

[PinkPwnageFrenzy]

why?

Tilting stage counters most projectile shenanigans. Tip vs. ZSS though is to mix up your ledge options, she can time a shot to hit your normal get up. That's my favorite option.

 

[ep1c_marf]

so what do you guys do vs shiek? i have the hardest time dealing w her

 

[PMMikey]

I think if anything fox's worst matchup is easily sonic. Reason's being that Sonic can easily outmaneuver fox with his speed maneuvers, Ram fox over with a spin dash due to the fact that none of fox's attacks can stop spindash, can tech chase him with his down throw, and unlike little mac sonic can actually make it back to the stage no problem making this matchup even more harder for fox. If anything I can only see this matchup a living hell for fox.

You couldn't be more right, his vertical range from his upB can easily get back to the stage after he side-airs.

 

[DavemanCozy]

so what do you guys do vs shiek? i have the hardest time dealing w her

Well, here are some things I find useful against the local Sheiks in my area:

Use D-tilt to poke her and pop her in the air. A well spaced D-tilt hitting with the tip of Fox's tail will pop characters straight up, this lets you follow up with F-air or Dash Attack (at low percents).

U-tilt out of shield is really good if she tries crossing you up. At low percents, you can get another U-tilt. At moderate percents, you can follow up into F-air, B-air, U-air or N-air. Your KO moves are U-air and B-air, while your combo moves are F-air and N-air.

You can shield Sheik's F-tilt and U-tilt then go in with a grab, there's enough cooldown time in these moves for you to grab her even if she spaces them properly. Just be wary of Sheik grabbing you while you're on your shield.

At around 60%, our F-tilt can be followed up with a dash attack or running U-smash.

Shiek gets KO'd by U-smash at ~95% or higher. You can secure it by doing Jab -> Jab 2 -> U-smash, by this percentage she'll get slightly popped up off the ground by your second jab.

If you're getting juggled, you have N-air to cover your landing, Shine to stall, and Fox Illusion to escape to the other side of the stage (remember there's very little landing lag now if you use it in the air).

 

[EndlessRain]

I find Yoshi incredibly hard to fight. Same goes for Sonic and R.O.B. For Sonic I just go Ike, then I laugh at his attempts to avoid my enormous sword disjointed hitbox. R.O.B. is apparently an easy matchup, but I'm not seeing it. You can't make him approach, because he likes to squat and projectile you anyway. You can't approach him either though, because Fox has kind of a bad approach game and R.O.B. can punish approaches quite well. Advice?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Seems like most of us agree on being hard for Fox. His N-air is a pain and kills most follow ups we have available. Very hard to approach due to good range in all his ground moves and superb aerial mobility. A small amount of his attacks actually have punishable cooldown frames too, and that's barely any time to punish in the ones that do.
EDIT: oh, and eggs. Man they're scary now, they really got buffed. Avoid them at all costs, if you're going to shield them, make sure it's a power shield to avoid getting grabbed out of your shield.

The best results I've gotten against him have come from baiting out his N-air, and baiting him to shield. Lasers can help to force him to dash attack or jump, as long as you stop shooting in time to react. The other thing he could do is just throw an egg, but that can be avoided (don't waste your time reflecting them either, unless you're sure the angle will hit Yoshi). Yeah, Yoshi is not a fun matchup because you have to play a hit-and-run game, baiting out his fast moves while avoiding his barrage of eggs and dash attack.

I think this matchup is 65:35, and IMO it's Fox's worst matchup in the game. I'm thinking we should make an MU thread, with this being the first matchup we should discuss. I've seen Falcon, Pikachu, Sonic, and Lil' Mac mentioned with no general agreement whether it's bad or even, but everyone seems to agree with Yoshi being hard.

 

[moyshe]

So far I think lil' Mac is a match up that most fox's struggle with. The biggest disadvantage fox has in this match up is his falling speed and still gets combo'd easily. Mac has excellent ground and racks up damage extremely fast. I think the best way to fight Mac like a melee falco. Amazing onstage. But terrible offstage. Most Macs approach with a side b or a dash attack. If you manage to get lil Mac in the air, it's best to keep him up there so you won't get ko punch.

I don't think lil mac is an issue for fox, it's one of those match ups where you just kind of wait and you can shield out everything he does. I've never had issues with lil mac personally, but he and villager are two match ups that I play a lot slower and just wait. macs are insanely easy to read.

Seems like most of us agree on being hard for Fox.

Definitely agree with his, all of his aerials are so dangerous seem like they out prioritize fox's as well.

 

[EndlessRain]

Mac/Fox is 50:50 imo, but only because you can kill each other so easily. Your dsmash=him dying, but you don't weigh much, so one lucky hit on his part is all it takes to kill you and bring it even again. His moves are for the most part near-impossible to punish unless you shield them, but they hit pretty hard so you can't just guard all day. It can go either way, and then swing around again very quickly.

 

[M@v]

Don't try to combo Yoshi and Luigi they will just Nair you. Do one move at a time and bait out Nair. Only combos that are usually guaranteed on them are Nair into dash attack grab or upsmash because they need a couple extra frames for the jump. They can still get out though I think so be careful. A Yoshi naired me between the hits of docs down b one time and I just wanted to drop my controller looool

 

[Rhus]

Yoshi is a huge bait-and-punish matchup. Like @ M@v said, doing one move at a time and potentially baiting out his counters to our strings is likely our best bet.

I haven't played many good Yoshis at all since my friend dropped him in this game. But the ones I have played against I have been playing very safely and using a lot of shields out of my dash and mixing it up with pivot grabs/pivot Ftilts. While I think Yoshi has many advantages here, I feel like we have a greater capacity to outplay like usual due to our superior movement and more versatile kit.

We just have to play patiently and focus on never committing past what is guaranteed. Hit and run seems effective, especially because Fox is very good at dashing in and out of his range (his ground movespeed is poor so he can't chase your disengages very well at all).

It feels 60:40 due to Yoshi's silly priority and Nair that stops pretty much every follow up ever, his kill/gimping potential etc. But due to our incredibly fast kit and his slow mobility, I feel like we can take suitable advantage of this problem and use strong mixups to sway it more favourably for us.

 

[Kon]

After all there are quite some characters who can get out easily of up-tilts.

Zelda has her neutral special to get out of it.
Mario, Luigi, Dr.Mario and Yoshi all have their nair. I guess villager could save himself too with a nair.

On the other side characters who are faster than Fox are tricky too.

Btw I'm currently looking at how to beat Diddys in the most effective way. Have to make some testing, but I guess Diddy can't get out of the up-tilts that easy. Just have to look if he could get out somehow with his side b. Also in the air I feel like his dair is too slow, so it could be a thing to approach with up-airs and keep him somehow in the air.

 

[EndlessRain]

Diddy struggles with utilt setups. Nair butchers his recovery. Shine means banana doesn't touch you. Watch out for throws, you get juggled incredibly easily with your high fall speed.

 

[luke_atyeo]

also bananas can net you an usmash.
I tried testing to see if doing a jump cancelled banana toss onto diddys shield and trying to grab right away gives a sweet guaranteed grab trap, but from what I can tell it does not, probably worth someone else double checking this just to make sure.

Well I figured out ZSS, so that's off my list of bad mus. As a side note, CP her to Lylat if they don't ban it (which I suspect most will in time when they realize how bad it is for them). Its not a good stage at all for ZSS imo.

Why lylat, I played a ZSS samus at a tourney on the weekend and she counterpicked me here, I won the match but not due to stage gayness. It was the first time I had to play on lylat in tourney, and whilst I dont mind the stage so much, I can see why its a problem for fox - Fox's recovery is extremely gimpable in certain situations (having to upB to the stage from under it being one) for most characters, so you'll see that fox will sideB to the ledge pretty much whenever they can since its such a strong option, but with the thin ledge and the ledge tilting all the time, trying to sideB to the ledge on lylat is very dangerous and so can take away (or at least increase the risk of ****ing up) our best recover option. Thats what I felt playing on it as fox, what makes it bad for ZSS?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I went to a monthly in Toronto last night featuring Nakat, Ally, HollyNightmare and Zhao. I ended up in 13th place, which is my best performance yet. Along the way, I played a bunch of matchups and talked to the other more experienced players.

Don't sleep on
I'm serious. Last night I had the closest set with a very good player (Iceninja, don't think he's well known but that was his tag) who used her disjoints and throws to great effect. I couldn't trade at all with her Dash attack nor B-air either, I think it's because she attacks with her shield. Jab also leads to a grab, her U-air is so powerful, and D-tilt stays out for a very long time and clips Fox Illusion recoveries towards the ledge. Her U-smash covers a lot of space near the ledge, it hits just right above the ledge and covers all the space above. That's basically 90% of recovery angles we have.
In regards to stage selection, I took game 1 on Smashville, and was surprised when he was fine going to Battlefield game 2, as it's a great stage for Fox. I later found out that this player was using Warp and ledge cancelling it on platforms to move all over the stage. Simply amazing knowledge of the move, and very hard to catch. I cp'd him to Town and City for 3rd game: seems like Palutena doesn't enjoy flat stages much, and since he banned FD that was the other stage that is closest to it when the platforms leave.
I ended up winning the set 2-1, but honestly it was due to him getting greedy with an F-smash. I learned the MU on the fly, he was the first good Palu I had ever faced.

I don't think this is a bad MU for Fox, but since we don't have an MU thread, I'll just put it here. You all best be warned, this MU was much harder than I thought it would be. Her aerials are much safer than they seem, jab reaches pretty far and leads into grab, and her throws set us up for nasty follow ups into U-air, F-air and B-air. Her weight is also fairly heavier than she looks.

 

[Kon]

There is one even more important thing about lylatcruise and why the up special is easy to gimp: On stages like Battlefield, Smashville, FD etc, you can go with the recovery either by flying along the stage(very good to maximize the distance from where you can recover) or try to sweetspot it with the recovery. Beside that, the side special as a recovery tool is good as well. However lylat cruise strikes one option directly and makes another one more difficult to do and as luke_atyeo already said makes Fox really gimpable. However I have to say I never really had that much of an issue to get the ledge with the up secial. Especially as you can play a few tricks with the reflector in order to make it less easy to predict when you start with your recovery. It is also good as a mix-up so you can (depending on your position of course) either choose the one your enemy will be waiting for(side special) or instead use the up-special to move slower to the ledge.
So far I had no problems as a Fox player with the stage, but there are more favorable ones than Lylat Cruise. Maybe it would be a good idea to take the discussion about which stages are good/bad for fox into another topic, so people who are interested in can find some nice advices^^

@ EndlessRain
Yeah, you're right. I forgot to mention you can easily get the barrels of Diddy down. This is really great: I did it already multiple times, so it was already something natural in the MU xD

 

[EndlessRain]

Okay, so there is a lot of half info about Palutena's dash attack/bair/Reflect Barrier/Counter too I guess. So I'm going to clear it up: During these four moves, the shield is 100% invincible. This is mostly a problem with dash attack and bair, but if their timing is godlike then they can avoid being grabbed out of Counter, and Reflect Barrier's windbox pushes you back so far that fsmash will only hit the shield. So yeah they can challenge anything they like with a dash attack and usually win.

 

[elmike]

i'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but why are ZZS and Sonic considered to be better than Fox?

I honestly dont see why...

 

[DavemanCozy]

i'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but why are ZZS and Sonic considered to be better than Fox?

I honestly dont see why...

I dunno about tier placements. They both might beat Fox, but I think Fox does better against Sheik and Diddy than Sonic or ZSS do in those MUs, and those are some of the most common MUs right now.

In regards to ZSS, I think it's bad for Fox. She KO's very early with U air strings and UpB, her paralyzers stops Illusion trying to recover, and Flip Jump is always a threat she has. She can cover a lot of space too, nasty for a character of her movement speed.

About Sonic, I did go to A&C this past week and saw Nakat vs Meekspeedy friendlies. From what I saw, it could be even or slightly in Sanic's advantage, not by much if it is though. What makes him good is his ability to chase and juggle Fox during his landings back onstage, we can do the same to him though not as well since his spring can cover space he doesn't want us in. Fox's neutral game and fall speed is a tad faster than Sonic's, but Sonic's neutral game has more reach and lots of priority as well, not to mention he outruns Fox on the ground. Having a slightly faster neutral game is pretty nice if you can get hits in though

 

[jr22]

I don't think lil mac is an issue for fox, it's one of those match ups where you just kind of wait and you can shield out everything he does. I've never had issues with lil mac personally, but he and villager are two match ups that I play a lot slower and just wait. macs are insanely easy to read.
.

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. I was overreacting about little mac when the game came out and that there where alot of Little macs back then. And I was kinda impatient in this MU and I thought little just destroys fox until I saw some foxes that knew the mu and were patient too.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

We kind of need MU guide. Just in general. Because, I kind of have near 0 idea on how to play against about the quarter of the cast. Sonic, Zelda, ZSS are the worst.

 

[EndlessRain]

I find characters like Mac hard to play against because I instinctively play very aggressively. It's just hard for me to slow myself down.
And yeah we totally need a clear, concise matchup guide. I have some notes on the bad ones, but it is worlds away from being complete.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

I find characters like Mac hard to play against because I instinctively play very aggressively. It's just hard for me to slow myself down.
And yeah we totally need a clear, concise matchup guide. I have some notes on the bad ones, but it is worlds away from being complete.

I do have problem of playing very aggressively naturally as well. I find that Fox's speed is very deceptive and manipulative in that regard. He is fast, super fast, but he doesn't have that much approach options in general. But his fastness makes me wanna just rush down and get things done. I gotta remember to play defensively and more deceptively...

In regards to the matchup guide, yeah, we do need one. I do make mental notes all the time when I practice and watch videos. But, someone capable of writing them down would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Foster J.]

I think a lot of Fox players comes to the conclusion of fast characters being aggressive, but that's not the case.

In general Fox is fast, good drop speed, so you'll be able to DI yourself around, so making tomahawks and baiting up openings should be a great option. Baiting an opening is using the laser, just fire a few shots and he should respond by getting close to you, and then you just need to react.

In Lil'Mac's case you know he's going to almost always open up with a dash attack, so you want to shield that, and grab him, or pivot grab him, and throw him up into the air or off stage. You really want to use the small invincibility frames on Dsmash to read his roll since Lil mac's Jab comes out extremely fast.

I personally think that heavy characters, and especially bowser, is bad news for Fox. Considering that Bowser's Side B command grab will kill you in the 80-90s which makes the shield game pointless, plus Bowser is a ruthless edge guard.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Well, there's no denying that once Fox can get in and start damaging, there's virtually nothing that can stop him because he can be so fast, so he can be ruthless. But, that's a rarity, in my opinion. Anywho, Bowser can be quite hard because him able to knock Fox out from very early on and I find in some cases, Bowser's aerials are better than Fox's because it's fast. It's kind of another one I have near to 0 idea on how to play.

 

[EndlessRain]

I find Bowser fairly easy, personally. But that is most likely because my primary sparring partner is a Bowser main so I have a lot of MU experience. Fox can make the matchup into a game of MvC: Once Bowser pops, he ain't gonna stop. As soon as he is out of his "Immune to knockback" early-game, you can combo all you like. Landing the killing blow without getting is the tricky part though. Baiting kill moves from him and punishing with smashes is normally how I do it. It's really the only time I'm able to stay patient, when either of us could die at any second.

 

[moyshe]

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. I was overreacting about little mac when the game came out and that there where alot of Little macs back then. And I was kinda impatient in this MU and I thought little just destroys fox until I saw some foxes that knew the mu and were patient too.

Yeah, when I see a mac on for glory or something I just sit there and wait. Macs play so aggressive and I just shield, grab, shield grab, shield, grab, and everytime I grab him I rack up damage every time. They have to approach you, and you don't. If Fox's laser wasn't completely awful this matchup would be even easier but I do see how you can have trouble with it. Sometimes when I'm feeling aggressive I try to be aggressive against mac and it doesn't work. Mac out prioritizes everything fox can throw at him. And even if you approach then shield, you'll still get punished, and when you get punished by mac, that's like 40-50%.

I feel like Fox has 3-4 match ups in this game that I kinda apply Toph's earth bending style, (ATLA reference).
"Just wait and listen."

I do have problem of playing very aggressively naturally as well. I find that Fox's speed is very deceptive and manipulative in that regard. He is fast, super fast, but he doesn't have that much approach options in general. But his fastness makes me wanna just rush down and get things done. I gotta remember to play defensively and more deceptively...

Its really hard to play aggressively and play well in general. You have to be a lot better at the game to play aggressive than defensive. You have to have spacing down perfectly and really know the character and match ups. I've been playing really aggressive and I've been losing a lot, so I think Im gonna go back to my campy ways.

 

[luke_atyeo]

If your local meta allows custom moves, use fox laser 2, the smash 64/falco one against little mac, lets you pop off lasers here and there to poke him and break up his approaches, make sure you only use them at max range though

 

[EndlessRain]

If your meta has customs the Mac MU becomes a joke. B2 is 10000000x better then default (in most other MUs too, but especially this one) and downB2 lets you gimp Mac with zero effort at almost any percent. And best of all, the only thing of note Mac gains is Dash Counter, which doesn't quite cover enough distance to let him approach through your lasers (and a slightly better Straight Lunge).

 

[moyshe]

If your local meta allows custom moves, use fox laser 2, the smash 64/falco one against little mac, lets you pop off lasers here and there to poke him and break up his approaches, make sure you only use them at max range though

I really hope no local metas will ever allow custom moves... might as well turn items on and do pools with free for alls.

 

[knuckles213]

currently these people seem to be my bad match ups that I'm having trouble with:

Falcon, Ness, Viliager, sonic, and palutena

I feel like they give fox a hard time when he trying to get in on them. any tips on these guys

 

[elmike]

I really hope no local metas will ever allow custom moves... might as well turn items on and do pools with free for alls.

I think you are confusing custom moves with equipment... If not, then probably you should learn/revisit what all the custom moves on all (or many) characters do, and see if you still think the same way after that.

 

[moyshe]

currently these people seem to be my bad match ups that I'm having trouble with:

Falcon, Ness, Viliager, sonic, and palutena

Yeah I dont know much about Falcon because I haven't really played a good one yet, so I wouldn't be able to adequately judge the MU, but Ness is definitely an uneven match up for Fox unless someone discovers something in the future. So Villager, your reflector is kinda key in this since he has so many projectiles. And the fact that villager is kinda heavy, you can uptilt him to 40% easy. But Villager is similar to what I was saying earlier about mac, just wait and listen, bait the approach and be really patient. Also you can reflect his dash attack and his bowling ball. Which has been really fun.

Sonic is pretty tough, I'd say its a pretty uneven match up, He's faster than us so being aggressive doesn't work at all. So once again, being patient really pays off and just grabbing out of shield when he approaches you. Also you don't want to try him in the air. I think theres a theme in hard Fox MU's on this thread, all the characters you have play really defensively against are hard when you just want to be super aggressive and run around and combo peoeple. Its tough being a Fox main.

I dont know anything about Palutena yet, haven't played a good one.

I think you are confusing custom moves with equipment... If not, then probably you should learn/revisit what all the custom moves on all (or many) characters do, and see if you still think the same way after that.

I know what he meant, I just don't think custom movesets are at all viable in tournament play. It means that you don't have to just learn a character MU you have to also learn all the different possibilities that character might have. I would seriously reconsider Smash 4 if tournaments began allowing that.

 

[luke_atyeo]

well you have your opinion and thats great, but this thread isn't the place to argue that so lets just drop it and focus on matchups.

falcon is tough, make sure you dont go for DJC stuff too early or he can jab you out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRauF_Lrv0Q - heres DEHF fighting a captain falcon, see what you can glean from watching that.

Also I havent had a chance to go up against the good ness in my area yet, but if the ness you are playing loves using full and short hop Fair (and why wouldnt they its really good) in the neutral game, a well timed full hop airdodge from fox gets you through it and ready to punish him, its a decent trick that can get you in, just dont over use it.

 

[moyshe]

well you have your opinion and thats great, but this thread isn't the place to argue that so lets just drop it and focus on matchups.

falcon is tough, make sure you dont go for DJC stuff too early or he can jab you out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRauF_Lrv0Q - heres DEHF fighting a captain falcon, see what you can glean from watching that.

Also I havent had a chance to go up against the good ness in my area yet, but if the ness you are playing loves using full and short hop Fair (and why wouldnt they its really good) in the neutral game, a well timed full hop airdodge from fox gets you through it and ready to punish him, its a decent trick that can get you in, just dont over use it.

Thanks for the advice :D

Also I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing or anything, we're all entitled to our own opinion. You're right, back to MU's.