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Fox wavelanding question (well w/ any character really)

Siglemic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
425
Location
Vancouver, WA
If you double jump to waveland on a platform above you is it faster than just fullhopping for it? Are there certain characters who shouldn't double jump to waveland on platforms faster?

Also, do you do more damage if you don't fast fall fox's dair? I usually fast fall it out of habit lol, too lazy to test this out
 

Zyzyx77

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
29
Location
Bored out of my mind! XD
With Fox, double jump to waveland is quicker, but also riskier, because if your opponent hits you at high enough %,and you're knocked off of the stage, all you'll have left is your Up+B to recover. But with most chars, I think its faster to double jump. You just got to think about how good (or bad) your recovery is and where your opponent is when you do.

As for Fox's D-air, it does more damage if you don't fastfall, but you have more combo opportunities if you fastfall the D-air.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
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16,256
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Northern IL
rarely is someone in range to punish movement like that, so i almost always double jump waveland with every character. Its good.
 

Zyzyx77

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
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Bored out of my mind! XD
Double jump waveland is good on most occasions, I'm saying its not good to use when the opponent can close in before you can get a chance to touch the ground first.
 

nyc_tag$

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Messages
473
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Tagburg
Yes, it is faster.

Obviously you do more damage if you don't fast fall because you get more hits in.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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Aug 14, 2005
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Corneria, Lylat System
As for Fox's D-air, it does more damage if you don't fastfall, but you have more combo opportunities if you fastfall the D-air.
Fast falling the dair does not give you any more combo opportunities. Non-FFed there are 6 hits, FFed there are 3 hits. It doesn't matter how many hits are in between; the last hit is always going to have the same properties. No change in each individual hit (beyond sheer amount) will produce no change in overall combo potential. There are really only two key things all Fox players should know and remember about dair.

1.

Not fast-falling your dair can sometimes be a terrible idea. More hits on the dair means more general air time. More air time means more time for your opponent to react to a hit and d.i. Going back to what we know about non-FFed dairs - 6 hits is plenty of time to attempt to d.i. out of the aerial and force the shine to whiff. If this happens, you might be eating a dsmash and losing a stock (via edgeguard/knockdown follow-ups).

Fastfalling the dair almost always guarantees your opponent will not randomly slide out of the last hit and be too far for the shine to hit. This happens alot with Sheik, Marth and Falcon, among others. My advice would be to always fastfall it so random d.i. doesn't thwart your combo attempts.

2.

More air time can sometimes be a good thing as well. You've all seen that dair -> d.i. backwards (bait shield grab) -> fsmash thing Falcos do, right? Well, with a SH non-FFed dair, you can get relatively similar results. Using the huge active hitbox of a single dair in combination with backwards d.i. - non-FFed dairs can sometimes net you grab or usmash ops that would otherwise be extremely difficult to obtain. This works well vs. shield loafters (Peach, Jiggs etc). Just don't overuse it because its extremely susceptible to SH aerials oos by alot of the cast.

Either neutral SH and perform the dair on a shield and d.i. backwards, or SH backwards and perform the dair. If you hit the lcancel, you have more than enough time to punish the grab your opponent thought they had on you.


Extra information:

-Dair is great when attempting an edge-guard you think you might otherwise flub. Ledge-hop dair pushes your opponent below the stage and right into shine spike territory. WDing back onto the ledge immediately after gets you a free edge-guard.

-Dair ***** crouch cancelling. No knockback on any of the hits means no knockback for the "CC" to cancel. If your opponent is holding down and beating your nairs and bairs, pull out your laser and start looking for dairs to start combos instead.

-Dair -> grab combos on any character that isn't Fox/Falco, Bowser, Jiggs. It will still combo on these four mentioned characters, but shine, Up+b, and rest are all fast enough to come out in between the dair and the grab. (Jiggs don't spam rest like that though, so don't worry) If you're feeling shaky on the dair->waveshine->grab, or simply do not have enough room (on a platform or near an edge)...this is what you should go for.
 

nyc_tag$

Smash Journeyman
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473
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Tagburg
Generally it's a good idea to not fast fall your dair only when you're facing a scrub that likes to spot dodge :laugh:
 

Zyzyx77

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
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Bored out of my mind! XD
As for Fox's D-air, it does more damage if you don't fastfall, but you have more combo opportunities if you fastfall the D-air.
This is what I meant by "combo opportunities":

When u hit them with a Full Hop D-air, you should, for the most part, not always, FF the D-air, because if u don't, they won't be in hitstun when u touch the ground. Hitting someone with a Full Hop D-air and being able to follow-up is situational tho.
 

Slashtap

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
45
Location
Rice University
Rayn, I know what you're referring to about ledgehop dair to shine, but how do you know when to ledgehop dair edgeguard? I'm afraid of getting hit by Up Bs and such, thereby letting my opponent back on stage.
 
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