Fox vs Marth

[Animal]

I recently realized i have no idea what to do in this match up. Can anyone give some advice on what i should be doing, or trying to make them do?

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Eggz has some really good stuff to say about it so I'll just paraphrase from what he said. A lot of marths like to wavedash back when you approach so you have to overshoot your aerials when you think he's gonna wavedash back. You also to wait for them to be in some type of lag. He also said to time L cancels really late. NEVER commit yourself in front of Marth's shield.

The quicker you can get marth above you the better. I find it really easy to string together several nairs once I prop him into the air. I know a lot of this is really general stuff but since I've also struggled with this match up I figured I'd offer some input.

 

[Animal]

thxx any input is greatly appreciated and ya that makes sense, what do you mean by timing l cancels late? what does that do?

 

[Eggz]

If you L cancel late, it decreases the amount of time between them initiating shield stun and your shine coming out, leaving a smaller window to shield grab

 

[Cosmo!]

L cancel late? you mean do a late aerial?

 

[Makr]

L cancel late? you mean do a late aerial?

i think so. a late l-cancel just means you WILL get shield-grabbed. a late aerial will make the difference in time between aerial -> shine less (like he said).

 

[Jimbo Slice]

I've also found that Shine oos works as a great edgeguard if the Marth gets sloppy with their recovery and doesn't sweetspot. PC Chris used to do this a lot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ihtsowGIxo#t=00m28s Perfect example.

 

[Niko45]

Its a little more than just sloppy recovery. It's a mindgame, because the marth thinks fox is going to do the shield edgehog trick (you can do it with regular shield, not sure why lightshield edgehog is the standard for that). So Marth sees fox shielding on the ledge and up B's high on stage thinking he'll die if he goes low. Fox doesn't shield DI himself on to the ledge, however, and then shines out of shield for the gimp.

 

[unknown522]

DD -> grab marth if he's not camping properly.

CC -> u-smash on mis-spaced aerials (besides d-air)

Try to hit him out of his DD if you are close to him.

 

[Jimbo Slice]

Wow, I'm dumb. Niko is absolutely right. Either way, shine oos ***** and needs to be used more often by the community as a whole and not just against Falco.

 

[Animal]

Its a little more than just sloppy recovery. It's a mindgame, because the marth thinks fox is going to do the shield edgehog trick (you can do it with regular shield, not sure why lightshield edgehog is the standard for that). So Marth sees fox shielding on the ledge and up B's high on stage thinking he'll die if he goes low. Fox doesn't shield DI himself on to the ledge, however, and then shines out of shield for the gimp.

like how i made a thread based on our set? hahah

and unknown good stuff

thanks guys really appreicate thiss. i like using dtilit against marth, well i like it in general, but marth especially because his shield doesnt protect his feet, and i feel people dont expect it.

 

[EWC]

Shine oos is a good safe "panic" edgeguard against marth. What I mean by this is that it's really good as a last resort if you can't get there fast enough to set up a more certain edge guard. But it won't work if they sweetspot properly, so don't rely on it too much.

Other general tips:

Laser a lot, but not too much. If marth tries to ledge camp, which is really common, then use lasers to make them stop. But once you get him to give chase, stop. The purpose of lasering is not to build damage. It's to give you a way to stop marth from holding positions where he is hard to approach.

Move around a lot. Dash dance. Jump from platform to platform. Waveland off stuff. Just don't stop moving. One of foxes biggest advantages in this matchup is his ability to out-manuever marth. While he can control a lot of space with his giant gay sword, he has to commit himself to a laggy action to do it. You on the other hand can provide a constant threat just by virtue of the fact that you can get to anywhere on the stage very quickly.

If marth tries to camp with a lot of retreating shffl fairs, use some aggresive crouch canceling to get at him. If he hits you with an aerial (except dair) anywhere but the very end of his short hop, then you can CC and (dash to) grab or upsmash before he lands, if you are at a low enough percent.

If marth tries to dash dance camp you, over shoot some aerials. When he sees you jump at him, he's going to try to dash back and then pivot grab. So instead of aiming where he is, aim behind him, where he is going to be.

 

[ReturnEra]

can anyone tell me what % you can shine marth out of uthrow?

 

[Jimbo Slice]

I think it's around 21% with upward DI that you can shine out. Not certain though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

24% - fox
28% - falco

 

[joeplicate]

helllllll no it's way earlier than that

like 15% at least
the trick is to DI on top of him (and maybe wiggle out?) so the only way he can hit you is with a pivot grab

 

[JPOBS]

i think sveet has it right

 

[Niko45]

like how i made a thread based on our set? hahah

and unknown good stuff

thanks guys really appreicate thiss. i like using dtilit against marth, well i like it in general, but marth especially because his shield doesnt protect his feet, and i feel people dont expect it.

Lol yes. Honestly you aren't that bad at it you have a good edgeguard. I'd work in some lasering to bait marth's approach and then intercept approach.

24% - fox
28% - falco

Are these numbers before or after the throw? I'm assuming they are after the throw, because they seem a bit high.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

all numbers should be after the throw because thats what the knockback is based on. you can have a fox at 21% and stale it will send him to 24% but a fresh one might send him to 26% thus having different distances off the throw.

 

[4 Aces]

Do you really have to pull out late aerials to ensure not getting shield grabbed/etc? I've always heard that Fox's aerial --> shine can't be interrupted.

 

[PK Webb]

like how i made a thread based on our set? hahah

and unknown good stuff

thanks guys really appreicate thiss. i like using dtilit against marth, well i like it in general, but marth especially because his shield doesnt protect his feet, and i feel people dont expect it.

Well niko is to good vs spacies.....I can't stop this beast lol

 

[takieddine]

Marth Vs. Fox comes down to grabs, and doing a burst of sffl drill/nair when you predict their rolls/techs.

Dash attack is actually really reliable in the match-up. I use dash attack to mainly punish Aerial baits, since it starts real fast and you can do it out of a run, as opposed to shffl dair or nair to punish. Dash attack also combos into uptilt, upsmash, upair, so you can combo/kill from it at almost any percent, and even if they DI it away you can always get an edgeguard opportunity.

Upair, is your combo move and kill move. You should abuse upthrow upair as much as you can, at certain percents its nearly impossible (unless the player has godly smash DI) for marth to get out of chain upairs. I'd suggest practicing the timing for fullhop upair, and double jump upair out of a throw. At certain percents, i go for the second hit so they dont have a chance to even smash DI the upair.

As far as playing defensive....dash dance wait for their fair, or grab attempts. Some marths like to approach with Nair or dtilt/jab rather than fair, to counteract your approach with nair. just run up shieldgrab. Sweetspot ledge, learn angles and such on the firefox and what you can do to stall or throw their timing off when they are edge guarding you. If my illusion is starting to get punished i start using firefox to recover both to throw off their timing and give me more options and room to react if they fail an edgeguard because they were expecting Illusion.

Dont listen to what anyone says about lasering, its strictly used when you are getting dashdance camped too hard. you make them come to you.

 

[Winston]

Dash attack is also great because it screws up basic dashdance spacing.

It's also fairly safe on shield, usually they can do like a dair oos or something but not shieldgrab.

 

[unknown522]

all numbers should be after the throw because thats what the knockback is based on. you can have a fox at 21% and stale it will send him to 24% but a fresh one might send him to 26% thus having different distances off the throw.

that is correct.