First Person SSBB

[thebouncyblob]

The post below is rather long, I know, but please look at it; it might interest you.

This is an idea I've heard about--making a mod of brawl that is split-screen, first person. You would see the stage from the view of your character, and only see what is in front of you. (The field of vision would probably need to be somewhat large). This would put a whole new spin on brawl. There would be a whole new element of stealth. You could sneak up on someone by dropping in on them from a floor above them or jumping up through the floor that they are on and attacking. When you'd attack, you'd see your fists (or sword, or gun, etc.) come out from the bottom of your field of vision. You'd see the game from your character's eyes. (There might be a need for a radar of some sort so you can keep track of the fighters in your immediate area.) This is just an idea that struck me as interesting.

What do you think?

I have no expertise in making mods, but if someone here does, and is interested, please contact me.

I apologize if I have posted this on the wrong board, or even on the wrong website. Please redirect me to the right place if I have. Thanks.

 

[Zef]

i dont even think this is possible lol

 

[thebouncyblob]

I don't know if it's possible either, Zef. But what do you think of the concept?

 

[Zef]

id probably enjoy it since it's something completely new nd whatnot

maybe someday

 

[ryuu seika]

It's been suggested before and the same issue has come up time and again:

Link, Mario and DK's spin attacks.
Kirby's dash attack.
MK and Zelda's teleportation (they're not technically in existance when not visible).
ETC.
There are too many weird motions in Smash that could make the player seasick.


I like the idea and don't mind getting a little dizzy, so long as I can have a small stage map with dots for players (racing game style) in the bottom right corner.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Yeah. I'd like to talk to someone with expertise about it. It seems like the main part of this hack would be moving the camera so that it is positioned at the character's face. Is there anyone you know of that I could contact about this?

 

[ryuu seika]

Sorry but I have no idea, all the past threads have ended up with was "I wonder if it's possible", "How would you do this?", "Wouldn't you get dizzy?".

None of them were in the coding section though.

 

[TCRhade]

I dunno, personally... it would kinda take away the feel of Smash (you're talking about making it completely 3D, right?

And I think the camera could be tinkered with to show that angle, but I'm not sure the splitscreen thing would be possible.

 

[ryuu seika]

I dunno, personally... it would kinda take away the feel of Smash (you're talking about making it completely 3D, right?

It would look more 3D due to the camera angle but this is a Brawl mod we are talking about. There would be no actual gameplay change.

 

[GeminiCrossFade]

This may be my opinion, but I think I would enjoy it if brawl had a battle playstyle similar to the game Dragonball Z Tenkaichi 3 .

 

[thebouncyblob]

It would look more 3D due to the camera angle but this is a Brawl mod we are talking about. There would be no actual gameplay change.

Exactly. Your character would still only be able to face right and left. The difference would be that you would see what they see.

 

[thebouncyblob]

In response to some of the problems that have been brought up:

1. Dizziness/spin moves:
This is a good point that I had not yet considered. The solution seems to be simply taking the camera off of the characters face temporarily, and just leaving it pointing wherever it was originally pointing (and pointing it the direction the character is moving.)
Ex. Meta-knight uses his tornado (neutral B): If he was originally facing left, the camera continues to point that direction unless he starts moving right, so that he can see where he is going. I know this represents an inconsistency in the "see the game through your character's eyes" idea, but this seems to be the best practical solution.
The same would go for rolling moves like Jigglypuff's rollout (neutral B)--the camera just point whichever direction the character is moving, and is temporarily not located at the character's eyes (instead it is in front of the character).

2. Teleportation:
There are two solutions to this:
A) Black the screen out for the split second that the character is invisible.
B) Leave the camera at the invisible characters eyes, and do not black out the screen.
I have noticed that while Meta-knight is using his dimensional cape (teleport move) (down B), the camera still follows him, and he can be hit by things (but not damaged) such as pikmin. This is especially noticeable when you use the infinite dimensional cape glitch. (You can learn about this on the SmashWiki if you're interested.) Thus, he is still on the screen and moving. The difference is that he is invisible and invulnerable. I assume this is also the case with Zelda.

I think either solution would work, but I favor the second one, since you would then still be able to see where you're going while using the infinite dimensional cape.

I REALLY appreciate this feedback, guys. Please keep it coming.
I would be really excited to see this idea become a reality (although I realize that it will take significant time and work).

 

[Vinylic.]

I don't like that style. it's like that dragon ball game. almost like it.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Ignoring the likely impossibility of making this, I think the majority of Smash things would not work in this style from a practical standpoint.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Hey TokyoGamer. I understand that not everyone likes it, and that makes sense. I'm just interested in constructive criticism and ideas that people are able to provide.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Ignoring the likely impossibility of making this, I think the majority of Smash things would not work in this style from a practical standpoint.

Thanks for the input. What items did you have in mind? (Could you give some examples?)

 

[hotdogturtle]

Um... Like all the jumps and moves that inolve flips or spins.We take them for granted because we view the game in third person, but pretty much every character moves in ways that are unnatural in real life. Keeping them in would make the camera look crazy all the time and make it hard to actually see things, but keeping the camera always facing forward would sort of "dumb it down" and remove one of the interesting elements of Smash.

The game is just not meant to be played in ways other than how it was made.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Um... Like all the jumps and moves that inolve flips or spins.We take them for granted because we view the game in third person, but pretty much every character moves in ways that are unnatural in real life. Keeping them in would make the camera look crazy all the time and make it hard to actually see things, but keeping the camera always facing forward would sort of "dumb it down" and remove one of the interesting elements of Smash.

The game is just not meant to be played in ways other than how it was made.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dumb it down" since the camera is already always facing the same direction as it is. Like I said, constructive criticism and ideas are what I'm after. It seems like some people actually are interested in this idea.

You said the game is only meant to be played the way it was made--Does that mean you don't think mods should ever be made?

 

[hotdogturtle]

No, you're misinterpreting a lot of what I said. For the camera thing, think about other first person games (shooters for example). The camera pretty much stays steady and always facing forwards. But think about real life, you move your head around all the time and look in different directions than the way you're facing. Those sort of movements usually aren't included in first person games for the purpose of clarity. And if simple movements like that are missing, imagine how much more would be missing from Smash, where the characters are all very mobile and move in impossibly acrobatic ways.

As for mods, I didn't means mods in general. I meant that the gameplay of SSB is specifically created to be viewed as it is: third person camera, zoomed out view, 2D movement. It simply would not be possible to play in first person.

Again, this is all hypothetical, since your idea is very impossible to code anyway.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Thanks for the input, Hotdogturtle. I agree that it is very unlikely to happen, but I really don't know anything about modding.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes, it takes away a little of the fun of the spins and such but I think the "camera faces where you're going during extreme moves" solution would work fine. As for teleports, I prefer the idea of not in existance = can't see but, in the case of Meta Knight, it may not be a real teleport anyway.

In ways Smash is not really the right game for such a mod, what with the exagerated actions and such. In other ways, however, it is better than most as no other fighting game has the level of movement involved in Smash. It is certainly a concept worth exploring, even if it turns out not to be feesable.

Oh and new problem: What would you do with Mr.Game&Watch?

 

[thebouncyblob]

Thanks, Ryuu, I agree. Another thing that could be done (which my friend suggested) is just to have the camera BEHIND the character, and face whatever direction they face, but not necessarily be at their eyes. My friend says that this is the case in many recent Zelda games, as well as Mario Galaxy. This is not an unusual perspective in games, and it would fit Brawl well. (In fact, most games that have a camera like this often seem to offer the option of viewing the game from the character's perspective, although I do not know if my examples do.)

This would be another possible solution.

In terms of feasibility, I definitely think that it is possible. This exact thing is already done in racing games like Mario Cart. The question is whether or not there are modders with the skills necessary to manage this. Based on what I've been seeing around here, (like the Mewtwo Project) I wouldn't be surprised if there were.

As far as Game&Watch goes, the camera could be placed at where his eyes would probably be (somewhere near the the bottom of the upper third of his face).
If the camera was placed behind characters (like I mentioned above) this would not be much of an issue.

If you are worried about his two-dimensional-ness, (i.e. he would look like a line from a side view), this could be avoided if the camera did not provide a perfect side view, but was slightly off at an angle.
Another solution would be tinkering with his image to rotate it slightly and make it visible.

Once again thanks for the feedback and ideas. If anyone here knows (or is) an experienced programmer, please tell me.

 

[highfive]

My head hurts from just the idea of all the crazy notions. However; I do believe that someone had made something like this prior to it. They just moved the position of the stage or something like that. I remember it was on KC:MM but the whole post was rather vague. I also believe that the split screen would be impossible. Something to do with the way the cameras limits.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You can't play a 2D game from a first person perspective, it just doesn't work like that. Dragon Ball Z works because its a 3D fighting game.

I've tried doing a similar first person view using the Debug Menu in Melee to position the camera to make it that it's always in front of my characters face, and let me tell you it was not easy at all.

 

[Mic_128]

Um... Like all the jumps and moves that inolve flips or spins.We take them for granted because we view the game in third person, but pretty much every character moves in ways that are unnatural in real life. Keeping them in would make the camera look crazy all the time and make it hard to actually see things

This. My first thought was choosing Luigi, doing his down B, then throwing up form motion sickness..

 

[thebouncyblob]

You can't play a 2D game from a first person perspective, it just doesn't work like that. Dragon Ball Z works because its a 3D fighting game.

I've tried doing a similar first person view using the Debug Menu in Melee to position the camera to make it that it's always in front of my characters face, and let me tell you it was not easy at all.

Hey Jigglymaster. Yeah, I agree that it would not be simple. There would have to be other tweaks, like maybe a simple radar or something.

Another idea that would probably need to be implemented would be the ability to look up and down (and for that matter, all angles from yourself.)

I have Melee, but I do not play it often. So could you tell me--is the debug menu something you can use while playing Melee on your Wii (or GameCube), or is it something that you can only use while emulating it or using a hacked version?

 

[thebouncyblob]

This. My first thought was choosing Luigi, doing his down B, then throwing up form motion sickness..

Yeah that's one reason for putting the camera behind the character.

 

[cuckoos]

I completely understand that you're new to the Brawl modding community. However, what you are requesting is impossible in every perspective of the matter. Brawl is not an open source game, and has much too many limits to be transmogrified into a genre of which it's origins do not stem from. I understand that Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess utilize such mechanics, but those games were coded from the start to conform into that genre.

Now, of course, if Brawl was in fact an open sourced game, this would be feasible. But, as unfortunate as it may seem, it is not.

 

[thebouncyblob]

I completely understand that you're new to the Brawl modding community. However, what you are requesting is impossible in every perspective of the matter. Brawl is not an open source game, and has much too many limits to be transmogrified into a genre of which it's origins do not stem from. I understand that Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess utilize such mechanics, but those games were coded from the start to conform into that genre.

Now, of course, if Brawl was in fact an open sourced game, this would be feasible. But, as unfortunate as it may seem, it is not.

Hey Cuckoos,
Thanks for adding to the discussion. You've said that Brawl is not open-sourced. I was not aware of this. Could you give me a better picture of how people *do* go about modding the game?

 

[cuckoos]

The file replacement code created by Phantom Wings during Brawl modding's peak. Before the code was concocted, users would have to manually hack the contents of the Brawl ISO in order to replace base texture files with new, custom texture files. The file replacement code allows for people to load textures from a USB key/SD card in order to have them appear in-game.

Codes can also be created that alter Brawl's physics and mechanics, but it is nearly impossible to create a code that changes the intended genre.

 

[Gatlin]

To be honest, it is an... interesting idea... but it is not possible for a mod. A mod can't drastically change the game that much and still be called the same game. That would most likely be classified as a whole new game seeing as SSB has always followed a 3rd person view point. It is a cool idea, but a mod that large would simply not be possible.

 

[thebouncyblob]

Alright. Thanks for explaining that, Cuckoos. I really had no idea.

I still hope that this will one day be a reality. Maybe we could convince Nintendo... Who knows?

Thanks everybody. Also, thanks to Bionic for moving this thread to a more suitable board.

 

[ryuu seika]

I prefer the idea of a first person perspective to an over shoulder view but the over shoulder would likely be easier (still nigh impossible from a modding standpoint though). A static side view of the stage on the other hand would likely be a relatively easy mod but that camera mode has so many problems that it's hardly worth discussing.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Something like this would need a complete overhaul in the game engine. Also, depending on how the radar works, tracking your opponent would be difficult if they're airborne, and using the first-person aspect to look around the stage for your opponent would make the game very slow and tedious, especially with how Smash Bros. is supposed to be played.

If the game is running off of an engine that utilizes virtual reality technology, then it may work, but I put stress on the word "may". Overall, the game is meant to be a 2-D sidescrolling fighter. The only fighting game I've played that has a first-person option is Bushido Blade, and it didn't really work that well (though better than I initially thought it would). If Bushido Blade's engine made a first-person experience mediocre - especially since it was made to work with a first-person perspective - then I can imagine Smash Bros. becoming a hectic mess with such a mechanic, unless extreme changes have been made to the gameplay to accomodate such a thing. In that event, it wouldn't be a Smash game anymore. I could be wrong though, but that's how I feel.

 

[ryuu seika]

0 0_
0_ 0 _ 0000*
______

Map of battlefield. * shows a possible player location. 0's are for spacing.

I don't see how it could be any more issue than in a racing game where players can be shown as off the track (usually for shortcuts).

 

[M-Wolf]

This caught my attention so I felt like reading it. Umm... lets see, where to begin...
First off, this is Super Smash Bros. not Halo. It would be a completely different game in first person view. I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea, but it's just extremely impractical. It would require a whole new fighting style. And what would happen if you were, say... getting cg'd by Falco? You'd be facing so you'd only see Falco and then the sky, over and over until break out of the cg or most likely fall off the stage. Since you probably wouldn't get a chance to even see the ground you'd be a bit disorientated and probably die. And what about Sonic after he uses his spring? If you haven't noticed, he spins as he falls... good luck doing anything in that position.
All I can really say is this seems too unrealistic to catch on as a real form of gameplay.

 

[\/aarsivius]

Even though it would be almost impossible, I think it would be fun to see what your character sees. If this concept was combined with a (theoretical) technology that allows you to teleport in the game...it makes my mouth water. Imagine playing as Kirby, and swallowing someone, or playing as Sonic and feeling what it is like to run at high speeds, or hacking the game and playing as Tabuu...I've took it too far, haven't I?

 

[TurnOneWrath]

I personally don't like first person shooter games, so a first person fighting game wouldn't really be all that interesting to me.
Also, for a game like Brawl, one needs to see a lot more than what the characters are doing, so really only stages like Battlefield would really work, as players would get rather annoyed at being blindsided by Norfair's lava (even moreso than they already are).

 

[4nace]

Ughhh... This idea makes my head hurt as well.

The game would unplayable.

You say the gameplay would not change, just the camera would be infront of your face.

So that means the controls are still the same. Well, that means that left always moves you the same direction or turns you around and right does the same thing. How would you be able to control your character? Your instinct would be to push forward on the joystick to go forward and left and right to turn. But that wouldn't work, because Smash has 2D gameplay with 2d controls.

This is a good game. Good games are designed to control and play with their limitations. Just because Smash has 3D graphics does not mean it can be played as a 3D game.

 

[ryuu seika]

Left would take you left and right would take you right. You would always appear to be moving the same way (forward) but the mini map would show your actual movement.