It is common for fighting game communities to create a tier list for their game as a source of reference and debate regarding the tournament viability of the cast. The Smash scene is no exception to this, and all games in the series have had a tier list posted to SmashBoards. More often than not, the website itself was instrumental to the creation of these lists, mainly through projects organized by the so-called Smash Back Room for each respective game.

Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS finds itself in the unique position of receiving patches, DLC characters and stages for more than a year after release, with two more characters still forthcoming. As a result of this, it made sense to hold off on tier list discussion until a period of relative stability came along. The current patch (1.1.3) left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and had Genesis 3 as a major showcase, so we chose this build as a foundation. With the recent launch of the 4BR, we were in a good position for the official tier list project to finally get underway.

The 4BR acknowledges that tier lists are often controversial and won't be perfect at the first iteration, if ever. We do, however, strive to study the game to the best of our ability and give a sincere opinion on the current state of affairs. As such, a tier list can be an important benchmark to look back on as the game progresses.

To illustrate this, compare the first and last tier lists for Brawl. Over the nearly 5 years separating the two, we saw the fall of top tier threats like King Dedede, R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, the rise of supposed mid tiers like Captain Olimar and Zero Suit Samus and the blatant early misjudgment of Zelda's potential. Despite these major shifts, the majority of the cast did not end up that far from where they initially started.

Our community has pushed Smash 4 hard from day one, and we have more resources at our disposal than ever before, be it complete frame data, tutorials, or tournament footage. It will be interesting to see how this affects our accuracy in rating the cast, something only time will tell. All that being said, we are proud to present you the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U!

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group. They had to assume play under the 1.1.3 patch with no custom moves allowed, while Miis had to be considered with their 1111 moveset only, in accordance with tournament reality at the biggest events. The 4BR at this moment has no official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters.

We agreed to let voting run until after Genesis 3, which would hopefully provide us with insights into especially the more recent additions to the cast, most notably Cloud. During the voting process, there was a separate topic for reasoning and discussion. We also asked a small group of non-members to submit a vote, in order to involve more people at the forefront of the metagame. We ended up with 53 votes, of which 34 were American and 19 were international.

These are the people who submitted a vote:

USA
Atlantic North: 12
Midwest: 8
Pacific West: 7
Southwest: 4
Atlantic South: 3

International
Europe: 8
Japan: 6
Canada: 3
Australia: 2

Note that we will not release individual votes, but any voter is free to share his own vote with the public. The most notable abstainee was @TSM ZeRo, who felt it was still too early for a tier list.

Results

@Shaya processed the votes and found these average placements, standard deviations and gaps between average placements for the cast:

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the mean, while a higher standard deviation means that the character had a larger range of placements. Most standard deviations are over 1, indicating that we are far from a consensus.

We considered all gaps over .50 as tier separation points and those above .75 for a change in label (Top, High, etc.). However, we decided against single character tiers and the C tier occupying a "High Mid" label with just two characters. Finally, we split F tier into two based on the largest difference within that group of 14 characters.

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:

Middle
C:

Low
F:

Bottom
H:

Text version:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

Graphic version:

Conclusion

The first year of Smash 4 has been an absolute rollercoaster, with players flocking from Bowser to Diddy Kong to Sheik to Luigi to Donkey Kong to Sheik again. With the completion of the cast on the horizon and the nerfs and buffs slowing to a halt, the game can be expected to come to full fruition in 2016. We can't wait to see the Smash 4 tier list evolve over the years as Smashers all over the world rise to the challenge -- and with them, their respective characters.

What do you think of the tier list? Would you have placed any characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will also include a more in-depth analysis of the results with statements by 4BR members.

Major thanks go out to @Shaya for processing the votes, @Zigsta and @Liberation for helping with the release and @Xiivi, @Shaya, and @Camalange for collecting outside votes and various odds and ends. Finally, a shoutout to all the voters for their time and input. I was proud to spearhead this project and receive help from so many dedicated people.

Marc

SmashEurope Writer & Editor

Hailing from the Netherlands, Marc is a veteran of the Smash scene and has competed in all titles to date. These days he is mostly focused on TO'ing and various projects to further the growth of the competitive community. When he is not too busy traveling the world, he is an avid gamer, movie buff and a walking encyclopedia on DragonBall.

Avalon Tournament Series | SmashEurope

Comments

#641

I swear, so much of this tier list is wrong... Marth and Shulk at G? Mewtwo at F? Pfft...
This is why Smash doesn't need a tier list. Each player can suit a character really well and is able to hold his/her own ground no matter what.
#NoTiersOnlyDreams

#642

How is jigglypuff in front of Zelda?See this is not gonna work cause Jiglypuff is the worst player in the game

#643

C. Karnage said:
there's no way Roy is this low

thank you. He should be in mid high!

#644

LancerStaff said:
Yeah, he should be lower.

hey again. Roy should definitely be in mid high. Same with the other FE characters.

#645

Pookum Gamer said:
hey again. Roy should definitely be in mid high. Same with the other FE characters.

Uh, no? The characters even in low mid have way more significant results then Roy. The other FE characters besides Marth and Lucina are about where they should be.

Roy is realistically going to drop ten spots next tier list just short of an explosion of results or gigantic buffs. Probably the biggest complaint with this list is that Roy was massively overrated... Especially now that he's clearly worse then Marth and Lucina and we know what actual viable swordsmen are like people don't see the value in him. Why pick Roy when his design is so poor and contradictory and any other swordsman has an actual, functional gameplan?

Roy has a mediocre neutral, meh advantage, and one of the worst disadvantages in the game. Roy has the frame data of a swordsman but the effective range of a fistfighter with his backwards hitboxes. Roy's aerials aren't even that powerful compared to a "weak" swordfighter like Pit, even assuming you get the strong hit every time. He has high top speed stats, but generally poor acceleration so he can't even make full use of it. To add insult to injury, in Smash acceleration is a flat +X every tick instead of a percent of top speed, meaning somebody clunky and slow like Samus outspeeds Roy in the short term.

Like... What does Roy have that's worth playing him for? A powerful Fsmash that nobody gets hit by? Kill combos that don't work against simple DI? An average punish game? Really, what's so special?

#646

LancerStaff said:
Uh, no? The characters even in low mid have way more significant results then Roy. The other FE characters besides Marth and Lucina are about where they should be.

Roy is realistically going to drop ten spots next tier list just short of an explosion of results or gigantic buffs. Probably the biggest complaint with this list is that Roy was massively overrated... Especially now that he's clearly worse then Marth and Lucina and we know what actual viable swordsmen are like people don't see the value in him. Why pick Roy when his design is so poor and contradictory and any other swordsman has an actual, functional gameplan?

Roy has a mediocre neutral, meh advantage, and one of the worst disadvantages in the game. Roy has the frame data of a swordsman but the effective range of a fistfighter with his backwards hitboxes. Roy's aerials aren't even that powerful compared to a "weak" swordfighter like Pit, even assuming you get the strong hit every time. He has high top speed stats, but generally poor acceleration so he can't even make full use of it. To add insult to injury, in Smash acceleration is a flat +X every tick instead of a percent of top speed, meaning somebody clunky and slow like Samus outspeeds Roy in the short term.

Like... What does Roy have that's worth playing him for? A powerful Fsmash that nobody gets hit by? Kill combos that don't work against simple DI? An average punish game? Really, what's so special?

Roy has extreme power, obviously. Almost all of Roy's moves kill early and are either easy to set up, or are just fast in general. His smashes can be set up with falling bairs, throw reads, and edgeguarding. His tilts are fast and kill, and he has a kill throw.

Roy is very fast. People need to start thinking of him as a rushdown character instead of a swordsman. He has a very fast run speed, he just got frame data buffs for aerials and his side b, and has a fast air speed. His neutral is average because of the fact that he can defend himself easily by throwing out a constant barrage of attacks. He has a clear objective to get close, which he can now accomplish with his speed buffs. If his opponent shields his nair, he can just grab them now because he has that kind of speed. Kind of sounds like CAPTAIN FALCON, a high tier character.

By the way, there are equal complaints about roy on this list. Many people say he's too low, and many people say he's too high.

Also, he is getting good results. Marth has 2 really good players representing him (Pugwest and Mr. E), and Roy is the same (Neo and StaticManny). Also, M2K and Ryo both use Roy sometimes in tournaments, and they all place very well. If you look up roy results, you'll even get some evidence from YouTube.

And when he does get in at his opponent, he can kill them easily. Roy has insane damaging combos off of his Dthrow, Jab, and Fthrow, and even some combos from his Dtilt. Also, all of these moves can easily set up tech chases and reads, which he can optimize with his insane speed and power. Roy can easily combo every single character in the game, with each combo damaging them up to 40% or more.

Uh, could we keep this short? Sorry, but I don't really want another long argument like we had with Corrin...

#647

Pookum Gamer said:
Roy has extreme power, obviously. Almost all of Roy's moves kill early and are either easy to set up, or are just fast in general. His smashes can be set up with falling bairs, throw reads, and edgeguarding. His tilts are fast and kill, and he has a kill throw.

Roy is very fast. People need to start thinking of him as a rushdown character instead of a swordsman. He has a very fast run speed, he just got frame data buffs for aerials and his side b, and has a fast air speed. His neutral is average because of the fact that he can defend himself easily by throwing out a constant barrage of attacks. He has a clear objective to get close, which he can now accomplish with his speed buffs. If his opponent shields his nair, he can just grab them now because he has that kind of speed. Kind of sounds like CAPTAIN FALCON, a high tier character.

By the way, there are equal complaints about roy on this list. Many people say he's too low, and many people say he's too high.

Also, he is getting good results. Marth has 2 really good players representing him (Pugwest and Mr. E), and Roy is the same (Neo and StaticManny). Also, M2K and Ryo both use Roy sometimes in tournaments, and they all place very well. If you look up roy results, you'll even get some evidence from YouTube.

And when he does get in at his opponent, he can kill them easily. Roy has insane damaging combos off of his Dthrow, Jab, and Fthrow, and even some combos from his Dtilt. Also, all of these moves can easily set up tech chases and reads, which he can optimize with his insane speed and power. Roy can easily combo every single character in the game, with each combo damaging them up to 40% or more.

Uh, could we keep this short? Sorry, but I don't really want another long argument like we had with Corrin...

They're not fast or easy to land at all. Even Sethlon doesn't land them consistently. His kill throw isn't impressive either. The best Roys bring the match to last hit, last stock situations on a regular basis... His killing ability objectively sucks.

High top speed, low acceleration. It's like how Marth's walk is doo doo even though it has the highest top speed, accelerating as fast as Robin does and all. Roy is not a rushdown character and any decent Roy will tell you that. Captain Falcon works much as a rush down character because he has a safe dash attack, a crazy dash grab, other (read: more then one) safe and effective moves, and significantly better acceleration stats to fake out people with. Roy is Captain Falcon if Falcon sucked.

Everybody has amazing 40-50% training mode combos that are destroyed by DI. That's not anything special, mostly because they're not going to be landed enough to matter.

Even Reddit gave up on Roy now. There are no good players that would rate him higher then where he currently is on this list, and not many who would rate him higher then bottom 15. Marth actually has good solo results as of last patch, and I never said otherwise. Being useful in one or two matchups isn't a big deal... Remember Nairo's Doc?

You need to get off of the Roy boards... They're an echo chamber. Go to the character competitive impressions thread and ask what people think. Heck, just ask what people think on the other FE boards if you're concerned with bias. Didn't M2K call Roy trash and use him as a joke? That should of been your first indication Roy's not as good as you think he is.

#648

LancerStaff said:
They're not fast or easy to land at all. Even Sethlon doesn't land them consistently. His kill throw isn't impressive either. The best Roys bring the match to last hit, last stock situations on a regular basis... His killing ability objectively sucks.

High top speed, low acceleration. It's like how Marth's walk is doo doo even though it has the highest top speed, accelerating as fast as Robin does and all. Roy is not a rushdown character and any decent Roy will tell you that. Captain Falcon works much as a rush down character because he has a safe dash attack, a crazy dash grab, other (read: more then one) safe and effective moves, and significantly better acceleration stats to fake out people with. Roy is Captain Falcon if Falcon sucked.

Everybody has amazing 40-50% training mode combos that are destroyed by DI. That's not anything special, mostly because they're not going to be landed enough to matter.

Even Reddit gave up on Roy now. There are no good players that would rate him higher then where he currently is on this list, and not many who would rate him higher then bottom 15. Marth actually has good solo results as of last patch, and I never said otherwise. Being useful in one or two matchups isn't a big deal... Remember Nairo's Doc?

You need to get off of the Roy boards... They're an echo chamber. Go to the character competitive impressions thread and ask what people think. Heck, just ask what people think on the other FE boards if you're concerned with bias. Didn't M2K call Roy trash and use him as a joke? That should of been your first indication Roy's not as good as you think he is.

You clearly just...haven't used roy. That's all I'm gonna say about that.
And most people rate him in mid or mid-low results wise, and mid-high potential wise (but that doesn't matter as much).

Roy's combos aren't destroyed by DI...

Sethlon is definitely not the best roy player in smash 4 anyway. Good roy mains finish stocks quickly and easily.

I don't get how Roy has "low acceleration." He's very fast and can fake people out, like falcon. Sure, falcon has an amazing dash attack. But they both are fast, they both have combos, they both can set up kills easily, they both have average recoveries, and they both get comboed easily because they're fastfallers.

All his kill moves are really easily set up. Any decent roy will tell you that. Only m2k thinks he's kinda bad of the people who use him, while other mains think he's at least mid-low.

We're never gonna get through to each other. We learned that from our corrin argument a while ago. I'm just gonna end this now without continuing. Whether or not you respond to me is up to you.

#649

Pookum Gamer said:
You clearly just...haven't used roy. That's all I'm gonna say about that.
And most people rate him in mid or mid-low results wise, and mid-high potential wise (but that doesn't matter as much).

Roy's combos aren't destroyed by DI...

Sethlon is definitely not the best roy player in smash 4 anyway. Good roy mains finish stocks quickly and easily.

I don't get how Roy has "low acceleration." He's very fast and can fake people out, like falcon. Sure, falcon has an amazing dash attack. But they both are fast, they both have combos, they both can set up kills easily, they both have average recoveries, and they both get comboed easily because they're fastfallers.

All his kill moves are really easily set up. Any decent roy will tell you that. Only m2k thinks he's kinda bad of the people who use him, while other mains think he's at least mid-low.

We're never gonna get through to each other. We learned that from our corrin argument a while ago. I'm just gonna end this now without continuing. Whether or not you respond to me is up to you.

I have. Roy's combos are destroyed by DI. Get off of for Glory and play some decent players and you'll see...

Then no good Roys exist. Nobody finishes stocks quickly even half the time, unless you think you can prove otherwise.

Ask the competitive impressions thread what they think about Roy. http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/
Not a soul there believes in Roy. If you think you can prove otherwise I suggest you do so, because more more people are losing faith in Roy by the day.

Roy objectively has bad acceleration. Listed here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirAcceleration
This is data pulled straight from the game... If you want to argue it, ask one Kuroganehammer. He's typo'd before, but I can just feel how bad Roy's air acceleration is by comparing to the characters he's tied with, so it can't be that far off.

Most of the good Roy mains think he's high low, and that's still a stretch for the rest of us. M2K is a better Smasher overall then anybody who's sunk a decent amount of time into Roy, and I'd sooner listen to his opinion then yours or the other "top Roy mains'" opinions.

You either need to start proving your facts or just accept that Roy's not half as good as you think he is. Likewise, you weren't even half right about what Corrin can do. Definitely can't pin somebody to the ground long enough to time them out, hehe.

#650

Lucas is WAY TOO LOW. man, hes slow on some moves but his grab and nair game is out of this world. mid tier at least

#651

I wonder where mewtwo will be after winning pound?

#652

LancerStaff said:
I have. Roy's combos are destroyed by DI. Get off of for Glory and play some decent players and you'll see...

Then no good Roys exist. Nobody finishes stocks quickly even half the time, unless you think you can prove otherwise.

Ask the competitive impressions thread what they think about Roy. http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/
Not a soul there believes in Roy. If you think you can prove otherwise I suggest you do so, because more more people are losing faith in Roy by the day.

Roy objectively has bad acceleration. Listed here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/AirAcceleration
This is data pulled straight from the game... If you want to argue it, ask one Kuroganehammer. He's typo'd before, but I can just feel how bad Roy's air acceleration is by comparing to the characters he's tied with, so it can't be that far off.

Most of the good Roy mains think he's high low, and that's still a stretch for the rest of us. M2K is a better Smasher overall then anybody who's sunk a decent amount of time into Roy, and I'd sooner listen to his opinion then yours or the other "top Roy mains'" opinions.

You either need to start proving your facts or just accept that Roy's not half as good as you think he is. Likewise, you weren't even half right about what Corrin can do. Definitely can't pin somebody to the ground long enough to time them out, hehe.

I just wanna say one thing. I was about 90% right about corrin. I was wrong about only his/her side b time out and d throw comboing.

#653

Pookum Gamer said:
I just wanna say one thing. I was about 90% right about corrin. I was wrong about only his/her side b time out and d throw comboing.

And about Corrin being fast, having amazing frame data on the counter, and DFS is usually very hard to get follow-ups at a range, and a ton of other things you were also wrong about.

#654

LancerStaff said:
And about Corrin being fast, having amazing frame data on the counter, and DFS is usually very hard to get follow-ups at a range, and a ton of other things you were also wrong about.

nope. dats just wrong

#655

Pookum Gamer said:
nope. dats just wrong

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Counters
Corrin's counter starts on f7 and the FAF is 64. Little Mac's starts on f5 and has a FAF of 63. Marth's starts on f6 and has a FAF of 60. Literally the only reason Corrin's counter is notable is because it launches straight up, but this also strips it of any edgeguarding potential.

I've seen all the good Corrins either miss entirely or just pass up potential follow-ups on DFS all the time. Corrin's too slow to do anything about it at a range.

#656

LancerStaff said:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Counters
Corrin's counter starts on f7 and the FAF is 64. Little Mac's starts on f5 and has a FAF of 63. Marth's starts on f6 and has a FAF of 60. Literally the only reason Corrin's counter is notable is because it launches straight up, but this also strips it of any edgeguarding potential.

I've seen all the good Corrins either miss entirely or just pass up potential follow-ups on DFS all the time. Corrin's too slow to do anything about it at a range.

Okay, but her (i use female so i refer to corrin as her) counter is the most powerful. And if Roy's can break combos, hers can too.

Corrin can really easily follow up with an Up smash, F smash with a pivot (which is easy to pull off with corrin), Uair with following the knockback, and dash attack.

#657

Pookum Gamer said:
Okay, but her (i use female so i refer to corrin as her) counter is the most powerful. And if Roy's can break combos, hers can too.

Corrin can really easily follow up with an Up smash, F smash with a pivot (which is easy to pull off with corrin), Uair with following the knockback, and dash attack.

It's not even the most powerful. His is 1.2x strength, and there's six of them that are stronger. Again, the only reason it's notable at all is that it launches upwards and thus kills consistently.

It's pretty terrible at breaking combos, and so is Roy's. Simply getting baited out is bad enough between the near-complete stall setting yourself up for a charged Usmash, but then there's the fact that it's not hard to just fastfall the Uair and have the counterattack miss entirely and then get punished for using it.

Why are you using DFS up close? It's incredibly risky, being that even the fully charged projectile and bite have no priority over attacks and it has high endlag no matter what. At a more sensible range, where actual good Corrins use it, they still don't get many follow-ups.

#658

LancerStaff said:
It's not even the most powerful. His is 1.2x strength, and there's six of them that are stronger. Again, the only reason it's notable at all is that it launches upwards and thus kills consistently.

It's pretty terrible at breaking combos, and so is Roy's. Simply getting baited out is bad enough between the near-complete stall setting yourself up for a charged Usmash, but then there's the fact that it's not hard to just fastfall the Uair and have the counterattack miss entirely and then get punished for using it.

Why are you using DFS up close? It's incredibly risky, being that even the fully charged projectile and bite have no priority over attacks and it has high endlag no matter what. At a more sensible range, where actual good Corrins use it, they still don't get many follow-ups.

Exactly it kills more consistently than the others.

Nope its pretty fine at it. And her Uair is more powerful than you think.

I'm not talking about using it up close... you can get those follow-ups really easily from a range

#659

Pookum Gamer said:
Exactly it kills more consistently than the others.

Nope its pretty fine at it. And her Uair is more powerful than you think.

I'm not talking about using it up close... you can get those follow-ups really easily from a range

More consistently, and later, then others while having average frame data for a counter and no use for edguarding. Corrin's counter isn't even worth talking about.

Wasn't talking about Corrin's Uair. I was talking about his counter and how terrible an option it is for breaking combos.

Usmash? Not without full charge, that anybody can react to and easily deal with. Get off of for Glory and try combos on somebody who knows what they're doing. They won't let it happen.

#660

I find it hard to believe that Lucas is F tier when he has excellent combo ability, an up smash that can grab characters off the ledge and has ridiculous sending power, and can under certain circumstances grab characters at the top of his Bair and carry them into a meteor smash

#661

liets said:
I find it hard to believe that Lucas is F tier when he has excellent combo ability, an up smash that can grab characters off the ledge and has ridiculous sending power, and can under certain circumstances grab characters at the top of his Bair and carry them into a meteor smash

For starters his Usmash will never kill somebody on the ledge. Regardless of what a tip might say only the weak scooping hit gets people hanging, but it doesn't link into the main hit.

#662

LancerStaff said:
More consistently, and later, then others while having average frame data for a counter and no use for edguarding. Corrin's counter isn't even worth talking about.

Wasn't talking about Corrin's Uair. I was talking about his counter and how terrible an option it is for breaking combos.

Usmash? Not without full charge, that anybody can react to and easily deal with. Get off of for Glory and try combos on somebody who knows what they're doing. They won't let it happen.

I find it hard to believe that Corrin's counter is soooo bad as you say, because tons of other smashers from Gods to rookies complained about how bull****ly powerful it is. Countering DK's fully charged neutral b will be a one hit KO no matter where on the stage. It's like Pit and Dark Pit's side b BEFORE dark pit's buff. People all believed that Pit's was a lot better because of its consistent killing power.

It's the least reliable, but if corrin manages to counter really vertical combos, the comboer will not survive.

I'm talking about tournaments I go to. FYI I don't play on For Glory unless I just wanna screw around and go ganondorf or something, because it's my worst resource for training. And not only am I talking about MY corrin, but also matches I see with her on Twitch and YouTube's recorded tournaments.

#663

LancerStaff said:
For starters his Usmash will never kill somebody on the ledge. Regardless of what a tip might say only the weak scooping hit gets people hanging, but it doesn't link into the main hit.

Oh I didn't know it couldn't link into the kill hit, but I'm still not a big fan of attacks that snip your ledge connection

#664

Pookum Gamer said:
I find it hard to believe that Corrin's counter is soooo bad as you say, because tons of other smashers from Gods to rookies complained about how bull****ly powerful it is. Countering DK's fully charged neutral b will be a one hit KO no matter where on the stage. It's like Pit and Dark Pit's side b BEFORE dark pit's buff. People all believed that Pit's was a lot better because of its consistent killing power.

It's the least reliable, but if corrin manages to counter really vertical combos, the comboer will not survive.

I'm talking about tournaments I go to. FYI I don't play on For Glory unless I just wanna screw around and go ganondorf or something, because it's my worst resource for training. And not only am I talking about MY corrin, but also matches I see with her on Twitch and YouTube's recorded tournaments.

People were complaining, yeah. Before it was gutted. Now, not so much. Ask the CCI again what they think of counters, and they're only going to note the offstage use. Anything else is ridiculously risky (unless you're Little Mac and it's your only option anyway). Attempting to hard read anything that hits hard enough to make the counter OHKO is a good way to get nailed by it anyway during the endlag because the opponent was patient or get killed from a grab.

Pit's was better because the zone for the two to even kill at the same time was practically on the ledge anyway... Electroshock was one of those poorly thought out clone moves that was different but equal in concept but just worse in practice, like 99% of Roy's moveset.

Not as much as you'd think. Most relevant characters are going to be attacking with weaker, combo oriented Uairs or even multihit Uairs and Uspecials, and the counter only accounts for one hit. A lot of them can simply outspace the counter + fastfall the attack anyway... Meanwhile the risk for attempting it almost always outweighs the potential reward because the whole move is more then a second of commitment. Even high in the sky you're probably risking a stock.

Corrin's counter is irrelevant unless you're reading people who spam Stone or Bowser Bomb on for Glory.

And I've seen people lose to other people worse then for Glory scrubs at locals, so what's your point? None of the good Corrins use it any more then another character would use theirs.

Last edited: May 16, 2016

#665

LancerStaff said:
People were complaining, yeah. Before it was gutted. Now, not so much. Ask the CCI again what they think of counters, and they're only going to note the offstage use. Anything else is ridiculously risky (unless you're Little Mac and it's your only option anyway). Attempting to hard read anything that hits hard enough to make the counter OHKO is a good way to get nailed by it anyway during the endlag because the opponent was patient or get killed from a grab.

Pit's was better because the zone for the two to even kill at the same time was practically on the ledge anyway... Electroshock was one of those poorly thought out clone moves that was different but equal in concept but just worse in practice, like 99% of Roy's moveset.

Not as much as you'd think. Most relevant characters are going to be attacking with weaker, combo oriented Uairs or even multihit Uairs and Uspecials, and the counter only accounts for one hit. A lot of them can simply outspace the counter + fastfall the attack anyway... Meanwhile the risk for attempting it almost always outweighs the potential reward because the whole move is more then a second of commitment. Even high in the sky you're probably risking a stock.

Corrin's counter is irrelevant unless you're reading people who spam Stone or Bowser Bomb on for Glory.

And I've seen people lose to other people worse then for Glory scrubs at locals, so what's your point? None of the good Corrins use it any more then another character would use theirs.

I would say it's more like 99% of Marth and Lucina's moveset, but we've already talked about Roy.

I'm done. There isn't much left to argue or stuff I would personally like to argue anyway. See ya.

#666

How do I see the latest tier list?...

#667

I feel DHD should be in bottom tier, that's just me. I say this because He doesn't have very good damage and frame data on most of his moves, also he does not have a quick way of closing out stocks. He also doesn't have much play on him in casual and professional play.

Bark~

#668

TheHappyPickle ! said:
I feel DHD should be in bottom tier, that's just me. I say this because He doesn't have very good damage and frame data on most of his moves, also he does not have a quick way of closing out stocks. He also doesn't have much play on him in casual and professional play.
Bark~

Doesn't he have good results in Japan?

#669

mousethephoenix said:
Lucas is WAY TOO LOW. man, hes slow on some moves but his grab and nair game is out of this world. mid tier at least

thank you! Same with Roy.

#670

Pookum Gamer said:
thank you! Same with Roy.

We've been over this... Roy isn't mid tier. He's realistically bottom tier.

#671

Pookum Gamer said:
I find it hard to believe that Corrin's counter is soooo bad as you say, because tons of other smashers from Gods to rookies complained about how bull****ly powerful it is. Countering DK's fully charged neutral b will be a one hit KO no matter where on the stage. It's like Pit and Dark Pit's side b BEFORE dark pit's buff. People all believed that Pit's was a lot better because of its consistent killing power.

It's the least reliable, but if corrin manages to counter really vertical combos, the comboer will not survive.

I'm talking about tournaments I go to. FYI I don't play on For Glory unless I just wanna screw around and go ganondorf or something, because it's my worst resource for training. And not only am I talking about MY corrin, but also matches I see with her on Twitch and YouTube's recorded tournaments.

Corrin sends opponents upward with a 1.25 multiplier. Roys sends opponents to the left or right with a multiplier of 1.35. Just pointing that out. Corrins is just easier to kill with because it sends them upward instead of the traditional left or right angle.

*i just realized Corrin autocorrected to "Coffins" and Corrine" lol.

Last edited: May 23, 2016

#672

Green Zelda said:
Doesn't he have good results in Japan?

Last time I have checked 2 or 3 people have been having decent results in Japan

#673

LancerStaff said:
We've been over this... Roy isn't mid tier. He's realistically bottom tier.

we've been over this. He's low at worst.

WHATEVER I'M DONE

#674

Pookum Gamer said:
we've been over this. He's low at worst.

WHATEVER I'M DONE

Saying he's low at worst just kinda shows you don't know a lot about competitive Smash, honestly.

#675

TeddyBearYoshi said:
Saying he's low at worst just kinda shows you don't know a lot about competitive Smash, honestly.

I know quite a bit about competitive smash, I just disagree with most people about Roy specifically, because most people don't know a thing about Roy, honestly.

#676

Pookum Gamer said:
I know quite a bit about competitive smash, I just disagree with most people about Roy specifically, because most people don't know a thing about Roy, honestly.

Oh yes, an awful neutral that punishes you for good spacing, being in a constant disadvantaged state and the inability to kill well mixed with a bad recovery while being super easy to combo sure makes for a great character. The only thing he has to make up for this are his speed and punish game but that doesn't help when he himself can be punished so easily because of his weight, making it easier to string hits on him.

A lot of people describe him as a "worse Falcon with a sword" for good reason.

Tier lists are based on high level play, Roy just doesn't work as well that far. Most high level and even advanced players agree with the sentiment he is a very poor character in his current state.

#677

TeddyBearYoshi said:
Oh yes, an awful neutral that punishes you for good spacing, being in a constant disadvantaged state and the inability to kill well mixed with a bad recovery while being super easy to combo sure makes for a great character. The only thing he has to make up for this are his speed and punish game but that doesn't help when he himself can be punished so easily because of his weight, making it easier to string hits on him.

A lot of people describe him as a "worse Falcon with a sword" for good reason.

Tier lists are based on high level play, Roy just doesn't work as well that far. Most high level and even advanced players agree with the sentiment he is a very poor character in his current state.

He has setups on Uair and canceled Nair (first hit only) on every character to set up Utilt and Ftilt kills, along with his general power with the rest of his moves.

He can now approach with Nair and not be punished by most chars because of his now decreased lag, so he can grab immediately afterwards before his opponent.

His Uair and Up B break him out of combos, but yes. That is his biggest weakness that cripples him to the mid-low area.

His recovery is average, he has one of the fastest air speeds in the game and his Up B really is a lot better than most people think in terms of recovery.

Ryo, StaticManny, Sethlon and Neo all place very well in tournaments using roy...

#678

Pookum Gamer said:
He has setups on Uair and canceled Nair (first hit only) on every character to set up Utilt and Ftilt kills, along with his general power with the rest of his moves.

He can now approach with Nair and not be punished by most chars because of his now decreased lag, so he can grab immediately afterwards before his opponent.

His Uair and Up B break him out of combos, but yes. That is his biggest weakness that cripples him to the mid-low area.

His recovery is average, he has one of the fastest air speeds in the game and his Up B really is a lot better than most people think in terms of recovery.

Ryo, StaticManny, Sethlon and Neo all place very well in tournaments using roy...

Those aren't really safe though, and don't kill particularly early. Almost everybody has unsafe and overly particular kill confirms.

His poor air acceleration keeps his Nair from being exceptionally useful. When Roy jumps at you, he's jumping straight at you with his only options being a double jump or an easily punished counter.

Similarly his poor air acceleration keeps him from reaching his top air speed after being launched, on top of his problematic fall speed and gravity, poor double jump, slow Fair, and easily challenged Uspecial. His recovery is not okay, it's objectively terrible.

They don't place well in larger tournaments, and ultimately that's what matters when placing characters on a tier list. People won't just take their word on how good Roy is, they have to prove it.

#679

LancerStaff said:
Those aren't really safe though, and don't kill particularly early. Almost everybody has unsafe and overly particular kill confirms.

His poor air acceleration keeps his Nair from being exceptionally useful. When Roy jumps at you, he's jumping straight at you with his only options being a double jump or an easily punished counter.

Similarly his poor air acceleration keeps him from reaching his top air speed after being launched, on top of his problematic fall speed and gravity, poor double jump, slow Fair, and easily challenged Uspecial. His recovery is not okay, it's objectively terrible.

They don't place well in larger tournaments, and ultimately that's what matters when placing characters on a tier list. People won't just take their word on how good Roy is, they have to prove it.

they ARE safe tho.

his air speed has nothing to do with his approach at that time. After he fast falls and finishes his nair, if the opponent has shielded the nair, roy can just grab them.

his fair is not slow at all. His is faster than most other ones.

His acceleration really isn't as bad as you think. He reaches his top speed about 1 second after his knockback has stopped. His double jump is great for horizontal recovery, but below average for verticals uses. And, like marth and lucina, he has mix ups as to when to use is Uspecial, making it less predictable than most people think. Roy's recovery is above average for horizontal recovery, but slightly below average for vertical. Honestly, you really don't know the character as much as you think you do. I bet you know a lot more than me about some other chars, but Roy has actually received hours and hours of my time to figure out setups, neutral and recovery tactics, combos, and speed optimization.

Ryo and StaticManny do. And if they all do well in general, that does mean that Roy can do well in general as well...

I guess I can't truly be done when it comes to Roy.

#680

Pookum Gamer said:
they ARE safe tho.

his air speed has nothing to do with his approach at that time. After he fast falls and finishes his nair, if the opponent has shielded the nair, roy can just grab them.

his fair is not slow at all. His is faster than most other ones.

His acceleration really isn't as bad as you think. He reaches his top speed about 1 second after his knockback has stopped. His double jump is great for horizontal recovery, but below average for verticals uses. And, like marth and lucina, he has mix ups as to when to use is Uspecial, making it less predictable than most people think. Roy's recovery is above average for horizontal recovery, but slightly below average for vertical. Honestly, you really don't know the character as much as you think you do. I bet you know a lot more than me about some other chars, but Roy has actually received hours and hours of my time to figure out setups, neutral and recovery tactics, combos, and speed optimization.

Ryo and StaticManny do. And if they all do well in general, that does mean that Roy can do well in general as well...

I guess I can't truly be done when it comes to Roy.

Except they're not? You can't space properly for both the combo and for safety.

You can dodge before Roy can grab, but that also requires Roy to space absurdly close. Roy's poor dash attack and dash grab make it difficult to punish or pressure somebody who simply rolls away, before or after Nair hits the shield, never mind the fact that Roy's grab game isn't that damaging either. Nair > grab is way more effective on Pit because it's just as safe (maybe I'm a frame off but it still forces people to dodge or get grabbed) and he has better chasing options plus a better grab game.

Marth's much harder to challenge because his is f5 or so and he can afford to whiff an aerial offstage, while Roy's is f12 and he can't due to his physics.

Marth can with his floatiness and Dancing Blade, but Roy really can't enough to matter. Both of their Uspecials have rather poor hitbox placement that doesn't protect their heads at all and as such are easily gimped from above, so they're both, but especially Roy, Dair bait.

To me it seems more like you're ignoring what every other character can do... I'm sure Roy struggles to gimp another Roy but he still has a bad recovery.

They do well, at rinky-dink tournaments where they're often the only decent players there. Their results beyond a local level is underwhelming... Even Palutena and Link have better regional and national results. Pretty sure Shulk does too.

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