Final Fantasy VII: Mafia [GAME OVER]

[Ronike]

I love how you keep pussying out of answering these essentially yes or no questions with big long, politician esque paragraphs. My question does have a point, as Cloud cannot have a town beneficial role at this point IMO, or the game is town sided broken, nor do any roles make sense for his character at this point. This is what I was trying to get at with that question. I do love that you have turned it against me though.

And in addition, you have once again told us that going into further conversation about riddle is pointless. It's not. Riddle is really scummy, his claim is sketchy, and he has scummy people defending him in scummy ways. More will come tomorrow after I've thought a bit more abou this.

 

[mentosman8]

I didn't say discussion about riddle was pointless, I said discussion about potential roles is, as always, a dead end discussion. If you want to ask me about riddle go ahead, if it dives into role speculation, don't bother.

 

[Ronike]

Now, do I think Riddle is 100% cleared? No. However, I'm not about to go lynching an un counter-claimed Cloud Strife based off of a couple of mistakes he made earlier in the game. We're getting far enough we need to play it smart, and focusing on Riddle is NOT playing it smart. I'll hopefully have my thoughts on who we should look at together by tomorrow, but I'm leaving this here for now.

Let's stop focusing on hypotheticals and stuff that can NOT be fully responded to with the information we have, and start working with that same information.

Not strictly Cloud here, but at this point we have to use hypotheticals to get most of the points across, so its pretty much the same.

As I said, I don't know his role so I don't know if that would change things, but it's a strong enough line of logic to not want to focus on him.

4/6 of your last posts, in which you say focusing on Cloud is pointless. So yeah, you have said discussion about Riddle is pointless, and in a way that you are trying to make go unnoticed. Which is scummy.

 

[mentosman8]

Correction Ronike, those posts all said that I don't think discussion should revolve around riddle, not that discussion about him is pointless. in fact, if he ends up being lynched this discussion about him is everything BUT pointless, as it will help me find scum. Do I think it's the right person to focus on? No. Did I ever say discussing anything about riddle was pointless except potential roles? No. Don't change my opinion that he isn't the play today into me saying discussing him is pointless, as the two are vastly different.

 

[Ronike]

Ooooh, so I got one word wrong, sorry. Point I was trying to make is, either word you choose to use, you are still trying to discourage talk of Riddle, and now you are trying to deny it. Which is scummy.

 

[Chaco]

If anything, this is only stengthening another connection to him.

 

[Omis]

I dont see why Mentos wont answer the question simply. It really is scummy. If neither Omni nor Riddle claimed they would have been lynched plain and simple. They both were under extreme pressure and when everyone was decided on them they backed away with a claim. Why Mentos wont acknowledge this is baffling me and is scum like.

 

[Chaco]

Right now, here are my thoughts. I would prefer to lynch Riddle as he currently has two strong connections to him, this will either semi clear or nail scum for us. Town doesn't have much to go on right now, although I do want to hear Frozen's response to Chill's accusation and more from Xsyven.

 

[mentosman8]

Omis, what do you want me to say? Everyone here knows I'm cautious about lynching PR claims, so my point stands that without a role-claim from Riddle I couldn't successfully answer if I would have wanted him lynched. I can't speak for the rest of the town, only myself. Now, since you asked me about Omni, yes I would have lynched him on D1 without the name attached to the role. The role is a one-shot, useful but not a major role. Riddle, who is who I have been asked about, I can not say if I would have held my vote had he only had a role-claim, not a name.

And Ronike, there is a HUGE difference in the "One word" you got wrong. Me saying discussing Riddle is pointless is scummy. It is ALWAYS useful to discuss players. Me saying I don't feel our discussion should revolve around him solely means that in my opinion, there is not strong enough reason to lynch him, and I Personally think there are better avenues of discussion. The earlier implies that telling the town not to discuss him, the latter means my thoughts are to look elsewhere, although the discussion of Riddle may prove fruitful in the long run. If you don't see the difference there, and it is a BIG difference, well I don't believe you.

Now, this little back and forth with Ronike has got me thinking. If town thinks it's best choice is to lynch Riddle, so be it. When he flips town(which I heavily assume he will), it will pinpoint Ronike and possibly Chaco as scum. If by some chance he flips maf? I'll gladly defend myself tomorrow. However, I still do not feel Riddle is the play, or should be the one being pressured so much. If town disagrees, so be it, but I personally am going to

Vote: Ronike

There's a huge difference between how you're portraying my posts and the actual meaning in them, and it makes me look scummy. This points me toward scum, because I know you're smart enough to realize saying discussion on someone is pointless, and saying you don't feel they are the best avenue of discussion are two entirely different things, yet you use them interchangeably which makes me looks scummy, and makes it appear that there's a strong bond between me and Riddle. If you're town, think about what I've said and you'll realize the ONLY thing that I have refused my thoughts on are possible roles Riddle could have, which is also the only discussion that I have said is pointless/completely useless.

 

[Ronike]

Yes, the only thing you have completely and utterly not given an answer to is the role question, which was more of a hypothetical question anyways, merely to get you to actually think, which apparently it has yet to do. However, you gave long, round about answers to my other simple questions, which, if one reads carefully, you realize in the long run would allow you to defend yourself by saying you were arguing in either direction.

Then there's this whole manner of "pointless vs. rather look elsewhere". Either one is just your opinion, just one is more strongly committed to it than the other. No matter which word you use, you are portraying to us that you think that the town is wasting their time doing something when other things could be done. The ONLY difference in the two words is that with the former is that you are telling us that you strongly disagree with that track of thought. Obviously, you couldn't go that route as scum defending scum, because then there would be too strong a connection, and with the other wording you can weasel your way out of it when your scum buddy turns up scum by saying "Oh, well see, I said I wasn't sure, and I guess I was wrong, sorry!" So no, there is no real difference in your wording.

And then you go and OMGUS me, with a post that feels incredibly like one of Tom's from BI mafia. Oh, and my favorite thing about that third paragraph is that if Riddle flips town, I'm auto scum and if he flips scum, you are not necessarily scum, even though I have yet to really attack Riddle full force, and you've gone and changed that to "Ronike is pushing too hard for a riddle lynch!" Classic scum!

 

[mentosman8]

Ronike, the key difference I am trying to get made clear, is that I'm saying that I don't think Riddle is the play. My preference would be for town to look elsewhere due to this. If I had said "Don't discuss Riddle it's pointless" that implies that I am telling the town there is no benefit to the discussion, which I have most definitely not said.

To your first paragraph(don't know why I did this out of order) I answered in long responses because I honestly(saying this once again) do NOT know if I would have lynched Riddle had he not claimed Cloud. Omis was the first to ask me about Omni, and I gave him the type of answer you seem to be intent on getting because I knew my thoughts on the situation. Do you want my answer to your question of if I would be defending Riddle had he not claimed Cloud based solely off of my guesses about his role? Yes, yes I would be. However, the point I have been trying to make is that that answer means nothing, because I don't know his role claim. If he claimed vanilla townie it's a whole different story than if he claimed cop(an ambiguous example, I know the cop is already dead) and I feel like giving strong opinions without all the information required to make said opinions available.

tl;dr of that: If Riddle claimed a role like I assume he has, yes I would be defending him. If he claimed something less useful or something one-shot like Omni, no I wouldn't. Without the information of his role, my decision is not fully informed, and I don't like to say yes or no to things that I don't have a solid backing for.

Your final point, I didn't OMGUS you. The way things have looked to me it seems like you're subtly pushing a Riddle lynch, despite not putting your vote there, by asking questions directed at me that make it seem stupid to not want to lynch him. Along the same lines, you seem to be tearing into me for defending him, which does imply a conviction toward him being scum. Not all attacks on someone need to be aimed directly at them to get your point across. More importantly, and I guess I should have quoted this last time, but there was one quote that really irked me.

You still didn't answer my question mentos. Take away the fact that he is Cloud, and would you lynch him? I don't care about the role-claim, I don't care about lacking flavor, just answer the question.

The key point here is I don't care about the role-claim. Let me put you in a hypothetical situation like you put me into. Assume Riddle IS Cloud. Do you agree that would imply he has a key town role? If you agree, this is the situation I'm in. I do believe Riddle's claim. I do think he is likely to have a strong role. At that point, a role-claim makes all the difference in whether I would defend him or not. You can't ignore the factor of a role-claim when thinking about situations like you asked me to, especially when if the player in question IS town and not lying, it could be a major claim. Ignoring the role-claim entirely is like playing Spam-Master's gut, it's simply a feeling and ignores information pertinent to making a decision.

Regardless, I will admit I've lost my cool a little bit and possibly overstated things. The fact that it has pretty much been you and me going back and forth on the same arguments over and over, and that has made me get way too distracted from other players. My vote stands for now, but I would really like to hear from some of the rest of the town. I know me and Ronike aren't the only ones capable of multiple paragraph arguments and thought processes. In the past four days(IRL days in case somebody doesn't pick up on that), discounting me and Ronike, there has been a grand total of TWO posts over 3 lines long. One of them was a vote count.

 

[Ronike]

I am assuming Riddle is Cloud. The fact that he hasn't been CC'd tells me that he most likely is Cloud. However, this in NO way, shape, or form dictates that his role MUST be a powerful town pr. As I have previously stated, there is a distinct possibility at this point, through looking at flavor and eliminated PRs and implied lack of other PRs, that Cloud in our game is under the control of Sephiroth and is mafia, if only to unbreak name claims. This is a the point you are overlooking. Just because Riddle is Cloud, does not mean he is a powerful town power role, let alone town role at all.

And now you are trying to buddy buddy me with your last paragraph. Awesome.

 

[Chaco]

I still feel Riddle can die, these arguments ae messes of WIFOM that I would like to avoid in endgame. Keeping him around his merely going to hinder our abilities to win because we have a half believed claim with two strong connections to that player. That smart town play would to be to kill that person.

Also, stop relying heavily on flavor (i.e his name to role) because that is hindering our scum hunting. If you don't think it is, think again. He is a pivotal point in this game for town. His lynch answers many questions, and can put us in a position to win in end game. Otherwise, we lynch a player today, or no lynch, with hardly any connections and end up in end game with a load of ambiguity.

The best play we can do right now is lynch Riddle. I stand by that.

 

[mentosman8]

Not so much buddy-buddy Ronike, just point out that us being the only ones posting makes a lot of things different. Now, just a quick response to your point about me overlooking that Cloud could be under control of Sephiroth and therefore mafia, two points stand against that.

1.) The daykill was performed by Sephiroth. As I said yesterday, mafia with any kind of daykill added to their night kills would be ridiculously unbalanced, so I believe Sephiroth is our indie and we are facing a different grouping for mafia. Obviously speculation/personal opinion, but we can all agree daykill and nightkill for mafia is unbalanced, and it's highly unlikely Tom would include something like that.

2.) I have specifically stated that I do not consider Riddle cleared by his name-claim for the simple fact that I do still hold the possibility open that he is scum or has been recruited by scum and/or a cult or something of the sort. I'm not saying consider him cleared, I'm saying that one more mislynch puts us at mylo. lylo if the daykiller has multiple kills. So, should we focus on someone who claimed the main character, or the scummy people who haven't done so? While I can sort of see the reason to lynch Riddle today while we have the ml, I can also see a strong point to go after other people.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Mentos then who do you think we should be looking at?

Also, I agree with Chaco that leaving Riddle here today opens a big 40 oz of WIFOM for the next day.

Vote: riddle

 

[Xsyven]

This is me posting to say that I'm gonna continue reading. Last week of work, so I'm stressing a bit...

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Mostly in response to what Chill had to say regarding me, since I feel it segues nicely into the topics I'd like to eventually cover anyway.

Ok so first off, yeah I agree that I haven't been very active. Never once did I attempt to justify my behavior by comparing it to yours however, so I feel your attack on me in that regard is unwarranted. Fact of the matter is, I've simply been busy with school and traveling on weekends which has caused me to be belligerently V/LA. =/ I know, johns, johns, and more johns. No one wants to hear 'em and I understand, but really that's all I have to bring to the table on that subject.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from when you accuse me of being nothing but agreeable except when I "changed my tune" regarding Omni when "others took note of him." Not only do I not understand what exactly you're accusing me of, but I'd also contend that your view is misguided. Bring me some specifics of your argument and I'll certainly answer to any questions you might have. I certainly disagree with your synopsis of my play. Though I haven't been a major driving force, I fail to see how what I've brought to the table is scummy. It is my opinion that what few posts I have been able to contribute actually contained legitimate commentary and analysis of the current on-goings. If you disagree, feel free to show me my failures to do so. It seems to me that you're simply translating your dissatisfaction with my contributions to anti-town and scummy play, which is simply outlandish considering the broad approach you've taken.

Concerning Hando's analysis, that's still in the works. Believe it or not I've been digging into his play to try and figure some things out from a new angle. The results of that are soon forthcoming. I'm sorry to ask for everyone's patience once again.

Feel free to ask for clarification on any of my past posts though. I'll be sure to incorporate any needed clarification into my next post.

 

[Chill]

I know you didn't attempt to justify your behavior by comparing it to mine. You couldn't have,as I hadn't posted yet. I said that from the beginning so that you wouldn't use that as a counter argument. I was just nipping that in the bud.

I'm saying that you've been nothing but agreeable because you've well, been nothing but agreeable. It's in the best interest of the mafia to avoid ruffling the towns feathers. The more people you can get on your side the better.

It's day 3 and that you haven't gone after any yet sets off alarms in my mind. The only time you really had much to say was when I was going after Omni but when more people started to vote for him you did as well. It shouldn't be too difficult to see what I'm talking about.

You're not scumhunting, you're not voting and you're being careful not to upset anyone. Your playstyle is mimicking one that I've seen from mafia more than once before.

 

[Riddle]

The attacks right now are all based on the drawing of connections between people, so there is nothing to defend myself against, however I will tell you that I think you guys are going about it very wrong. Town is in a huge hole right now and needs to scum hunt not connection hunt. I agree drawing connections between people is useful but only after someone with a connection to someone else flips. Connections should not, imo, be the primary reason to lynch someone.

 

[Chaco]

No, they aren't, and I don't see why you suggest that. When a new point arises, it does not make the other points null. However, we do need to at least kill one person from that connection. It gives us too much valuable information not to do so. It can semi clear two players and then set us up for consecutive lynches to win. Do you not see this? Keeping you alive is merely a detriment to the town.

 

[Chaco]

This was a phone post btw, so ignore errors and whatnot.

 

[Riddle]

No killing me nearly guarantees a scum win. We are to far in the whole to lynch people to gain information. We need to lynch scum. I am not a detriment to town unless you make me one by using dumb WIFOM connections.

 

[Chaco]

I am not a detriment to town unless you make me one by using dumb WIFOM connections.

Connections aren't WIFOM, your argument is WIFOM.

We need to lynch scum.

Why else would I be voting for you? You are by far the scummiest player in this game.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

chaco i don't find your case convincing and a lot of is reaching hard. i haven't been posting much because your constant shoving of your favorite lynch down everyone's throat

905: first off you've wrongly pinned omni to the kevin kill. kevin wasn't "grilling omni the entire game" if anyone was it's me and no one supported his lynch. kevin was even reluctant to lynch omni and most of the "grilling" kevin did to omni was telling him that his play was poor. plus trying to outguess daykill/nightkill motives is grasping at straws

second you're holding the aeris/cloud nameclaims AGAINST them instead of treating it as null solely because they're major characters. why? tifa is a major character and even though you said most of the people to flip are minor characters that doesn't point one way or another as to omni's and riddle's claims. you bring up disney mafia which isn't similar because that's several different disney movies while this is just ff7

then you slap on "remember what he did earlier" and a big part of that is situational (asking for votecount after omni claimed) while i personally don't find "i know i am not town" that scummy because i've said similar things as town

911: covered the first quote. i agree the second one is scummy though

918: my initial reaction was to still barely fault omni/riddle for pushing the hando lynch considering how totally worthless he was. i'll go back and look at the wagons

1) who cares? you seemed to have no problem with omni earlier when i was pushing his lynch and the only reason i can see is because of his claim

i don't see how the other questions here lead anywhere

you want him lynched we get the point. consider relenting getting more opinions on it and looking elsewhere because you're making yourself easy to manipulate like this

His lynch answers many questions, and can put us in a position to win in end game. Otherwise, we lynch a player today, or no lynch, with hardly any connections and end up in end game with a load of ambiguity.

what are these many questions that will be answered? right now i'm in complete agreement with riddle that looking at connections will be much more useful after we net a scumbag

 

[Chaco]

Don't pass of your inactivity by my posting. That's in bad taste, and a cover up for active lurking.

As far as Disney mafia the reference was not made to the size of the player pool, but rather to Tom's style of modding with safeclaims.

Also, it hard to get opinions when no one is posting.


And no, I backed off of Omni at the time for his claim yes. When it happened again, don't you think that it raises eyebrows? Sure did to me.

And as far as questions, I've said them many times throughout the course of posting on him. The point for a Riddle lynch is clearly there. I'll back off of it for now, but mislynching today is not an option. And the:

right now i'm in complete agreement with riddle that looking at connections will be much more useful after we net a scumbag

That is a huuuuuge if statement. Because you don't know if you're going to net scum to see, and honestly, I feel even if we did there still would be the Riddle issue tomorrow with the overall ambiguity. Riddle is the best play, and it seems like only a few realize this. Whether you do or not, that's your deal.

Also, who are your stop suspects Marshy? And who would you like to pursue a lynch on today?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

i'm aware that cloud and aeris might be safeclaims but the point was that you're using those claims against riddle/omni when both characters are likely to be in the game. it's just null because there's no reason to assume that tom wouldn't give scum safeclaims that could still be minor characters or some combination

And no, I backed off of Omni at the time for his claim yes. When it happened again, don't you think that it raises eyebrows? Sure did to me.

vague. do you mean that this makes a riddle/xsyven team likelier for you? if so how?

as for suspects that largely depends on frozen's response to chill. my scumlist is fluctuating a lot right now and more posts from both of them and xsyven will ease that. also

@ everyone: what are your thoughts on riddle now that there's a for/against when it comes to his lynch?

 

[Chaco]

No, it doesn't make that team more likely, it just raised more awareness to the matter that two large names were outed and those lynches were abandoned. Where as when Hando claimed it pretty much tightened the rope around his neck, as well as Gheb. It just kinda raised my edge to them. The reason they were paired is because of the actions towards one another, not their claims.

 

[Chill]

Less talking more voting frozenflame.

10 points to whomever gets the reference.

 

[Chaco]

Another day will no posts. We have like three and a half days to get our lynch across guys, and an early deadline would be nice, so we can move targets if needed and are not flailing around in crunch time.

 

[Riddle]

Okay, at this point I am comfortable with (in this order) A Xsyven lynch and then A chill lynch.

Reasons have been explained why countless times, However, at this point I feel I should vote with the deadline approaching.

Vote: Xsyven

 

[Chaco]

If you would, please specify why Xsyven. Also, that would work on clearing whatever I said, so if that's the case. I would indeed go for a Xsyven lynch.

Also, I've seen nothing scummy come from Chill, he actually makes fairly good points. Why him?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

ughgh. i wanted frozen to finally respond so i could take his side but since he's taking forever i'll just say that chill is my favorite lynch by far fos chill for barely scumhunting the entire game. i don't think people would take his "case" on frozen as seriously if he wasn't inactive

 

[Ronike]

Vote: Frozen

Chill makes a good point I guess, though it is coming from the scums mouth. Regardless, both of you (and everyone else) needs to get the f active.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

23rd Vote Count:
Riddle (2): Chaco, jungle
frozen (2): Chill, Ronike
Ronike (1): mentos
Xsyven (1): Riddle

Not voting (8): Omis, Frozenflame, Marshy, Xsyven

Deadline: 10/18 Noon EST

omis, frozen, xsyven who are you leaning towards?

frozen can you hurry up and post the hando wagon analysis already? do you like a chill lynch?

mentos since ronike wagon doesn't seem to be going anywhere do you have some other suspects you want to push?

riddle why the xsyven vote? are you just going for an inactive lynch at this point in the game?

if the voteblocker is town then don't voteblock me again. this votecount definitely shows some bad judgment from chaco jungle chill and ronike. riddle too

i like a jungle lynch and would support that. chill is probably my favorite but frozen needs to respond

also this town needs to step it up big time. pretty sure we're approaching lylo/mylo

 

[Chaco]

How is it showing bad judgement? I have seen very little actually counter what I've stated about Riddle.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Why would you like a jungle lynch marshy

Anyway, I would also be okay with a Chill lynch. He hasn't done anything other than vaguely point out what others have said well after they had already been said.

 

[Riddle]

Not only is Xsyven inactive, but Omni was really scummy and he claimed a protective role which is usually a good maf safe-claim.

If you need me to elaborate on why he was scummy here's the reasons:

1) Major buddying
2) Driving the Hando bandwagon without voting
3) Xsyven is now Active-lurking seemingly.

 

[Chaco]

Heh, I've heard those points before! Anyways, yeah, except a protective role is generally not a good safeclaim, and would not be one I'd want to claim with Marshy around. They have one of the higher CC rates.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

1) how was omni buddying? he was arguing with a lot of people
2) he was voteblocked
3) OK

posts like that have me reconsidering your alignment

 

[Xsyven]

Not only is Xsyven inactive, but Omni was really scummy and he claimed a protective role which is usually a good maf safe-claim.

If you need me to elaborate on why he was scummy here's the reasons:

1) Major buddying
2) Driving the Hando bandwagon without voting
3) Xsyven is now Active-lurking seemingly.

I'm not active lurking! I'm just being inactive, and popping in whenever my name is mentioned!

I know, I know, I suck. Really bad timing for me. I work backstage at a theater, and we're closing three shows this week. I'll have alllll the time in the world next when I'm unemployed.

I still have no suspects, since I'm still not caught up. But if you guys want any questions about my role, I'll give you everything I've got. I've only read up into day 1. First of all, I have no idea why Omni lied about it. I am a doctor, but I'm just your average one-target-a-night doctor. No idea where the hell his 'party doctor' thing came from. If he's already revealed this... well, ****.

Any questions about my role PM that won't get me modkilled?