Data Figuring out Stale Move Negation; can anyone help me out?

[Jaxas]

All right, here's what I've figured out so far:

Spoiler

Questions needing answered​

• How many moves are in the Stale Move Queue?
  • Looks like 9, making absolutely certain. Cannot test at the moment, will tomorrow
• What are the reductions in Damage/Knockback for each position and instance in the Stale Move Queue?
  • Will test further tomorrow, appears to be the same as in Melee and Brawl
• How (and when) are multi-hit attacks affected by Stale Move Negation?

Answered Questions​

• Is there Stale Move Negation in Smash 4?
  • Yes, Stale Move Negation is in Smash 4.
• Does Staling only affect Damage or does it also affect Knockback?
  • Stale Move Negation affects Knockback as well as damage.
• Are Stale Moves tracked by the attacking player or the player hit?
  • No surprise, it's tracked by attacking player.
• How does hitting multiple opponents affect Stale Move Negation?
  • When hitting multiple opponents with a single move, the move appears not to degrade before hitting the second opponent, even if one opponent is hit before the 2nd.
  • Hitting two opponents with a single move only adds the move into the Stale Move Queue a single time.

• Are whiffed attacks added to the Stale Move Queue?
  • No, attacks that do not land are not added to the Stale Move Queue.
  • Whiffing attacks does not unstale moves in the Stale Move Queue.
• Are Stale Moves tracked by the attacking player or the player hit?
  • No surprises, it's tracked by attacking player.

Partially Answered Questions​

• Are there moves that are not subject to Stale Move Decay?
  • Marked as Partially Answered due to lacking the full cast. (Testing with the US Demo Version)
  • Yes, it appears that items are not affected by Stale Move Negation. As such, moves such as Link's Bombs and MegaMan's Metal Blade, as well as the leftover Tree Branch at the end of Villager's Down Special, all deal a set amount of damage every time.
  • Unlike in the previous games, it appears that Zairs are affected by Stale Move Negation in Smash 4. I am not completely positive about this however, as I was unable to test as thoroughly as I would have liked. I'll update this tomorrow, when I can play against a human opponent.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mind sending me the info?


--- EDIT ---
Also, I saw your post here and figured I'd ask, how did you figure out the exact damage of the middle hits of Usmash down to 4 decimal places?

Training mode

Zelda's up smash does 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% then it does 0%, 1%, 1% then 5% on the damage counter. I used up smash 3 times in a row and noticed that it did 46% and not 45%, so I figured that there had to be a decimal integer somewhere.

The values go like this:

15
30
46
61
77
92
107
123
138
154
169
184
200
215
231
246
261
277

Following this pattern, the only number that fits in is 15.41

So I divided 2.41 by 3 and got my answer.

 

[Jaxas]

Training mode

Zelda's up smash does 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% then it does 0%, 1%, 1% then 5% on the damage counter. I used up smash 3 times in a row and noticed that it did 46% and not 45%, so I figured that there had to be a decimal integer somewhere.

The values go like this:

15
30
46
61
77
92
107
123
138
154
169
184
200
215
231
246
261
277

Following this pattern, the only number that fits in is 15.41

So I divided 2.41 by 3 and got my answer.

All right, I figured it was something like that but I have to admit I hoped you had found some much easier way; that works, though. I'll be doing something similar to double check stale move stuff tomorrow, since there will be human opponents who can help me test things, but for now I'm heading to bed. Thanks for the assistance!

 

[Boss N]

Sooooooooo noob question incoming,
what the funkin waggle is stale move negotiation?

 

[Jaxas]

Sooooooooo noob question incoming,
what the funkin waggle is stale move negotiation?

Stale Move Negation is a mechanic present in all the Smash games that punishes the player for using the same moves too many times. Knockback and Damage are diminished for each instance of a move in the Stale Move Queue, or the list of the last 9 attacks used (In Brawl at least, which Smash 4 seems to be following). Damage and Knockback are also reduced by a set amount depending on where in the queue the move resides.

More info:
SmashWiki's Stale Move Negation Page
Smash Information Database's Stale Move Negation Page (under construction)

 

[SmashWolf]

What about Brawl's 1.05x damage boost when doing a fresh attack? Does that seem to be in, or is it 1.0x again?

 

[Jaxas]

What about Brawl's 1.05x damage boost when doing a fresh attack? Does that seem to be in, or is it 1.0x again?

It seems likely, as Stale Move Negation seems to work almost the same way here as in Brawl. I haven't fully tested it yet, though, nor will I be able to tonight. I should be meeting up with another member of the Smash Information Database team tomorrow to train for a tournament coming up, as well as figure out more information about Smash 4.

Sorry everyone, it looks like there won't be anything new from me tonight regarding SMN; hopefully @Ruben and I will have a bunch of new info tomorrow, though.

I'll do my best to get all the damage percentages for each attack from all of the Demo characters; I already have Link and Villager, so I'll be adding data on Mario, Mega Man, and Pikachu by this evening. If I have time after that, I'll start transcribing any interesting portions of the Tips section.

 

[Jaxas]

Training mode

Zelda's up smash does 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% then it does 0%, 1%, 1% then 5% on the damage counter. I used up smash 3 times in a row and noticed that it did 46% and not 45%, so I figured that there had to be a decimal integer somewhere.

The values go like this:

15
30
46
61
77
92
107
123
138
154
169
184
200
215
231
246
261
277

Following this pattern, the only number that fits in is 15.41

So I divided 2.41 by 3 and got my answer.

Would you (or anyone who has the actual game) mind checking something for me?
Either:

• Test if those damage values are exactly the same if you test them in the Waiting Room for the Group option in Smash, or
• Tell me what the percentage list is for Mario's Utilt or Jab 1, so I can check it with the data I'm getting.

Your math certainly adds up, and it can only work if the percentages simply have the decimals cut off, like in other Smash games.
The numbers I'm getting don't add up, though; they work just fine if the percents display the rounded integer versions of the decimals, but there's no way to make them work by simply dropping the decimal on display.

It seems like a very odd thing to have changed just for the demo or for the Waiting Room, but there's no way that the numbers it's giving me can be the true damage rounded down to the nearest integer. Either I'm doing something extremely wrong, or something's weird...


Also, sorry everyone but the data likely won't be up for all the demo characters tonight; I'm trying to calculate exact damage amounts, decimals included, for each of the moves they have and it's taking quite a while. I'm going to keep testing tonight operating under the assumption that it does just round as it appears to, however please note that if that ends up not being the case somehow then I will wait to do specific damage percentages until I have an actual copy of the game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

6
12
18
25

Mario's utilt does 6.25% base damage it seems

Mario's jab 1 does 2.5% base damage

 

[Jaxas]

I thought so!
I'm getting different numbers when I test (by hitting the sandbag in the waiting room; it's the only place I have access to without Stale Move Negation in effect). Also, 6.25% doesn't work for the numbers I'm getting, but there doesn't seem to be any numbers that do; all the other moves I've made work (maybe I didn't test them enough? I gathered the percentages after the first 30 consecutive hits, though...), but Mario's Utilt has been the exception.

My numbers are:

Spoiler

• 7 (the first hit also appears to have the freshness bonus, but none of the rest do... I'll test this more later. EDIT: Yeah, I'm almost positive it affects the first hit now; it's either that or it's not actually rounding the numbers, which is unlikely at this point)
• 13
• 19
• 26
• 32
• 38
• 45
• 51
• 57
• 63
• 70
• 76
• 82
• 89
• 95
• 101

Also, I got the same thing for Mario's Jab 1: anywhere from 2.5% to 2.5257%. Can you quickly test to make sure that a few others are correct? They're whole numbers: Ftilt (7%), Dtilt (5%), and Dash Attack (8%).

 

[skstylez]

Well that sucks.



Is it safe to assume this multiplier applies in the same way to knockback?

Absolutely not.
I've noticed how hard it is to notice stale move knockback so I did some testing. I used a lvl 1 pikachu, and controlled Mega Man. All damage values are before the killing strike.

Up-smash (uncharged)
Fully Stale: Kills 125%~+
Fresh: Kills 105-110%+

Shoryuken
Fully stale: Kills upper 90%+, always 100%+
Fresh: Lowest I got was 74%

As you can see, this is a huge balance change. In Brawl a stale falcon knee wouldn't even kill at like 200%. It still helps to keep some moves fresh, especially things like the shoryuken which have little purpose besides killing. But i wouldn't worry about staling your bread&butter moves. percent is more important than stale factor

 

[Meru.]

Absolutely not.
I've noticed how hard it is to notice stale move knockback so I did some testing. I used a lvl 1 pikachu, and controlled Mega Man. All damage values are before the killing strike.

Up-smash (uncharged)
Fully Stale: Kills 125%~+
Fresh: Kills 105-110%+

Shoryuken
Fully stale: Kills upper 90%+, always 100%+
Fresh: Lowest I got was 74%

As you can see, this is a huge balance change. In Brawl a stale falcon knee wouldn't even kill at like 200%. It still helps to keep some moves fresh, especially things like the shoryuken which have little purpose besides killing. But i wouldn't worry about staling your bread&butter moves. percent is more important than stale factor

Thank you! From what I'm understanding knockback staling seems to have significantly weakened from Brawl... That's great news to hear, thanks again!

 

[Jaxas]

Absolutely not.
I've noticed how hard it is to notice stale move knockback so I did some testing. I used a lvl 1 pikachu, and controlled Mega Man. All damage values are before the killing strike.

Up-smash (uncharged)
Fully Stale: Kills 125%~+
Fresh: Kills 105-110%+

Shoryuken
Fully stale: Kills upper 90%+, always 100%+
Fresh: Lowest I got was 74%

As you can see, this is a huge balance change. In Brawl a stale falcon knee wouldn't even kill at like 200%. It still helps to keep some moves fresh, especially things like the shoryuken which have little purpose besides killing. But i wouldn't worry about staling your bread&butter moves. percent is more important than stale factor

I just double-checked, and what skstylez said is completely correct. I'll be adding it to the wiki (with credit to you) once I figure out the specifics; thanks for that!

Also, we now have (almost) complete information on Mario's damage percentages. My friend with a second copy of the demo is over tonight as well, so the Stale Move Negation page will be updated within the next 24 hours maximum.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Do you plan to do any research on Rosalina and Luma? It occurred to me recently that since the pair have their own set of moves, they may count separately for stale moves. In other words, Rosalina's utilt and Luma's utilt may each take up a slot. Or Luma may be completely ignored for stale move purposes, IDK.

 

[Jaxas]

Do you plan to do any research on Rosalina and Luma? It occurred to me recently that since the pair have their own set of moves, they may count separately for stale moves. In other words, Rosalina's utilt and Luma's utilt may each take up a slot. Or Luma may be completely ignored for stale move purposes, IDK.

I would love to, but unfortunately until next Friday I only have the demo; No Rosalina/Luma yet. In the future we'll be working towards figuring out all the specifics such as that as well, though!

Also, I do still need assistance from someone who does have a full copy of the game; if you would, please go into Training mode and repeatedly hit the opponent with Mario's Utilt. Write down the percentage displayed on their counter after every hit until around the 100% mark, then either post it here or send it to me in a message.

Thanks everyone!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Soz I've been busy with my own projects. I thought I did utilt for you though already?

 

[Jaxas]

Soz I've been busy with my own projects. I thought I did utilt for you though already?

I'd like more than the first 4, as the numbers I'm getting are very different and I want to try to figure out why; also, 6.25% works for the first 3 damage percentages I got (assuming it is just rounding for some weird reason), but not the 4th one. After the 4th hit, the damage counter displays 26%; if it were 6.25% then it would be 25.

--- EDIT ---
Oh dangit I overlooked something stupid again; for some reason not only does it round in the waiting room unlike everywhere else, Stale Move Negation also doesn't kick in - except on the first hit, which still gets the freshness bonus.
With that added in, it makes sense.

Sorry for the waste of time, but at least I understand what's happening now...
I'm going to go finish calculating the specific damages dealt by Mario's remaining attacks now.

(Also, just as a heads up, it looks like Mario's Utilt actually does 6.32%)

 

[EverAlert]

where did you get that image from (did you make it yourself?)

Since you asked, I made it back when the Smash Lab was still a thing. I'm actually kind of honoured someone thought this worth saving, I completely forgot it existed lol.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread, carry on.

 

[Jaxas]

Hey, I finally managed to get a hold of a 2nd 3DS for testing!

Anyways, here's an update on what I've figured out so far with that:

Spoiler

Questions needing answered​

• What are the reductions in Damage/Knockback for each position and instance in the Stale Move Queue?
  • Damage reductions currently appear to carry over from Melee and Brawl.
    • I will test further in the future, however this will be a huge project assuming it does not carry over.
• How (and when) are multi-hit attacks affected by Stale Move Negation?

Answered Questions​

• Is there Stale Move Negation in Smash 4?
  • Yes, Stale Move Negation is in Smash 4.
• How many moves are in the Stale Move Queue?
  • There are exactly 9 moves in the Stale Move Queue.
• Does Staling only affect Damage or does it also affect Knockback?
  • Stale Move Negation affects Knockback as well as damage.
• Are Stale Moves tracked by the attacking player or the player hit?
  • No surprise, it's tracked by attacking player.
• How does hitting multiple opponents affect Stale Move Negation?
  • When hitting multiple opponents with a single move, the move appears not to degrade before hitting the second opponent, even if one opponent is hit before the 2nd.
  • Hitting two opponents with a single move only adds the move into the Stale Move Queue a single time.
• When are projectiles affected by Stale Move Negation?
  • Projectiles damage percentages appear to be set upon creation, similarly to how it works in Melee and Brawl. If a second projectile is created before the first one hits, it still deals the same amount of damage as it would if the first projectile was never added into the Stale Move Queue. If a third projectile was then used, it would be staled twice (assuming both example projectiles 1 and 2 hit an opponent).

• Are whiffed attacks added to the Stale Move Queue?
  • No, attacks that do not land are not added to the Stale Move Queue.
  • Whiffing attacks does not unstale moves in the Stale Move Queue.
• Are shielded attacks entered into the Stale Move Queue?
  • Yes, attacks that hit an opponent's shield are still placed in the Stale Move Queue.
• Are moves blocked in specific ways entered into the Stale Move Queue?
  • Attacks which hit an invulnerable opponent are not added to the Stale Move Queue.
  • Projectiles which hit Link's Hylian Shield are not added into the Stale Move Queue.
  • Pocketed Projectiles are not added to the Stale Move Queue.
• Are Stale Moves tracked by the attacking player or the player hit?
  • No surprises, it's tracked by attacking player.
• Are there moves that are not subject to Stale Move Decay?
  • Marked as Partially Answered due to lacking the full cast. (Testing with the US Demo Version)
  • Yes, it appears that items are not affected by Stale Move Negation. As such, moves such as Link's 'Bombs' and MegaMan's 'Metal Blade' all deal a set amount of damage every time.
  • Unlike in the previous games, Stale Move Negation applies to Zairs in Smash 4.
• Are attacks that hit non-player hurtboxes entered into the Stale Move Queue?
  • If an attack hits an item with a hurtbox, such as a Crate or Bomb-Omb, it will be added to the Stale Move Queue.
  • If an attack hits an object such as Villager's 'Balloon Trip' Balloons, it will not be added to the Stale Move Queue.
    • I am unaware of any other objects in the game which share this property with Villager's Balloons, however.

Partially Answered Questions​

• What are the requirements for a move to not be entered into the Stale Move Queue, or which moves are not affected by Stale Move Negation?
  • Marked as Partially Answered due to lacking the full cast. (Testing with the US Demo Version)
  • Item-based Attacks
    • Link's 'Bombs'
    • MegaMan's 'Metal Blade'
    • Tree branch left over after Villager's 'Timber'
• Are Reflected or Countered attacks subject to Stale Move Decay?
  • Marked as Partially Answered due to lacking the full cast. (Testing with the US Demo Version)
    
  • Projectiles caught by Villager's 'Pocket' or reflected with Mario's 'Cape' are subject to Stale Move Decay. They appear to deal damage based off of the staleness of the original move, which likely means that the reflectors themselves don't stale, but simply set the reflected damage dealt to a set amount of the original damage dealt.
    
  • No characters in the demo have a counter, and as such I am unable to test this.
• Is there still a Freshness Bonus for moves not in the Stale Move Queue, and if so what is it?
  • Marked as Partially Answered due to lacking exact percentage of Freshness Bonus.
    
  • There is indeed a Freshness Bonus, and it appears to be 1.05% again. I haven't fully tested that yet, but it appears to at least be within the range of (1.04 < X < 1.12).

 

[bc1910]

That's great information, very interesting. Seems to work the same as Brawl in most cases. Are projectiles the only moves that aren't affected by SMN? I saw a thread on reddit which basically suggested most of Link's moveset (aside from some tilts) was not affected by SMN.

Also, slightly off topic but since you have a 2nd 3DS is there any chance you'd be willing to test out vectoring and its effect on low percent combos? The thread with all the information is here: (http://smashboards.com/threads/vectoring-the-replacement-to-directional-influence-in-smash-4.368780/)

 

[Jaxas]

That's great information, very interesting. Seems to work the same as Brawl in most cases. Are projectiles the only moves that aren't affected by SMN? I saw a thread on reddit which basically suggested most of Link's moveset (aside from some tilts) was not affected by SMN.

Projectiles are actually still affected by Stale Move Negation; I've just done a bunch of work with Link, and at least his Arrows and Boomerang (I'll double check this one) are affected by it.
Bombs aren't, specifically because it's an Item rather than a basic projectile.

Also, slightly off topic but since you have a 2nd 3DS is there any chance you'd be willing to test out vectoring and its effect on low percent combos? The thread with all the information is here: (http://smashboards.com/threads/vectoring-the-replacement-to-directional-influence-in-smash-4.368780/)

Holy crap no one has done that yet? I actually offered to last night, but couldn't find my roommate's 3DS...
I figured someone would have beaten me to it by now.

Anyways, yeah I'll go do that.

 

[cFive]

Hey there,

we made a video about staling and your thread helped us out a bit, thx!

There is also some information in it that is not mentioned in this thread.

 

[Pikabunz]

stale multiplier = 1-Σ(sn/100)
s1=8.000, s2=7.605, s3=6.776, s4=6.033, s5=5.271, s6=4.437, s7=3.788, s8=2.943, s9=2.208
n is the position in the queue occupied by the move being used.
If you haven't any decay, stale multiplier is 1.05 instead of 1.

example:
If the move being used occupies the 3, 5, 6 and 8 positions in the queue, then stale multiplier is 1-(6.776+5.271+4.437+2.943)/100=0.8057

Stale move formula.