HoN3Y64
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2010
- Messages
- 111
Many options? =/
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Fighting Marth is hard but for some reason we do it anyhow
- Thread starter Wobbles
- Start date
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
"I suck at this matchup!" - M2K @ SMYM9
I heard it in person because I was playing him, IC's vs. Marth
Just continually shoot ice blocks over the edge and they will fall and hit him. If he tries to sweetspot he will keep getting hit. If he doesn't sweetspot, you should know what to do.
I'm not saying to do this every time, but if you can't get to the ledge fast enough, try it, it's pretty funny when it works.
Air stalling with forward b, fairs to protect himself...It certainly isn't easy to me...
Lixi, M2K wasn't at SMYM9 (ur talking about 10 =P) So if I don't iceblock every time, what are the other options?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
It isn't, but a lot of Marths are stupid and fall for things like repeated ledgehopped nairs through his up-B. You could also jump our and nair him between his side-Bs.
You risk your climbers like that? Doesn't seem like the "Fly" way.
There has got to be a more surefire method than repeated nairs through upb.
Can IC's do the lightshield edgehog or are they too light...Lightshield edgehog with one climber and Fsmash with the other would be raep.
There has got to be a more surefire method than repeated nairs through upb.
Can IC's do the lightshield edgehog or are they too light...Lightshield edgehog with one climber and Fsmash with the other would be raep.
Rich; the forward+b has extremely punishable lag when he's recovering, and almost nobody expects the ICs to come off the level at them. I love being aggressive with n-airs. You can actually do a full-jump n-air, double jump n-air, and then a THIRD n-air while off the level and still make it back with forward+b.
So you can definitely go crazy on people. It makes them more inclined to wait farther out to avoid the n-air and then you can just start edgehogging for free. My favorite KOs are the ones where I edgehog early.
Also, I forgot about this thread almost entirely. I could write something else for it I guess, if anybody is interested.
So you can definitely go crazy on people. It makes them more inclined to wait farther out to avoid the n-air and then you can just start edgehogging for free. My favorite KOs are the ones where I edgehog early.
Also, I forgot about this thread almost entirely. I could write something else for it I guess, if anybody is interested.
I am certainly interested, and i think I could speak for everyone else by saying the climber boards could use some more insight into this match.
Hm, I'll be trying all this out...Any word on lightshield edgehog? I guess it isn't good with IC's because nobody's recommended it.
Hm, I'll be trying all this out...Any word on lightshield edgehog? I guess it isn't good with IC's because nobody's recommended it.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
You don't need the approval of anybody here to try things...I've never tried it myself but I suspect 1) it doesn't work or 2) Nana will fall to her doom
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
ic is too floaty methinks
Well, if you roll and use Z Nana will just stand there grabbing repeatedly. This DOES mean that there is a little hitstun added to Marth's up+b when it comes into contact with her, which might give you the extra time you need to get the edge. If you're ready for him to air dodge, you can also just b-air him out of your shield.
Don't forget to fastfall to the edge as well. I'm pretty sure it will work most of the time, unless he sweetspots totally perfectly.
Don't forget to fastfall to the edge as well. I'm pretty sure it will work most of the time, unless he sweetspots totally perfectly.
Binx
Smash Master
I've lightshield edgehogged marth before, never thought about doing it with Nana around though, gonna have to try that soon. LOL force him to the stage with light shield edgehog and handoff, too good.
Which reminds me, where is bipolar rob? XD
Which reminds me, where is bipolar rob? XD
::shrugs::
cloudz
Smash Journeyman
can you ice block camp against a marth? and make it effective? lol
Binx
Smash Master
No you cant, he can fair through them and a combination of his range and speed makes its very unsafe. If you desynch you might be able to hit him out of a fair but its unlikely
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Does anyone else find that playing marth on fd is completely different than playing marth on any other stage?
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
Because platforms are stupid.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Nah ice blocks are pretty safe, even if you don't desynch them. I find ice blocks create openings, causing Marth to shield, full jump, or simply become impatient in general, which is always a good thing.
Marth can't rely on shffled fair to swat away the ice blocks because they hug the ground in such a way that they tend to "slip under".
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Desynched ice blocks are good against Marths that really don't want to approach you.
Binx
Smash Master
Ice blocks are slow and if Marth is very close at all he can just hope over it and hit you, most desynchs are too slow to pull off in that range also, if he is far enough away to throw an iceblock at him you should be getting closer to him so that he runs out of space to dodge and you can actually hit him with something that matters. Ice Blocks are useless vs Marth (except maybe in rare edgeguard situations to force him to recover high or early, although I feel like there are better options here also)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Dunno. I find ice blocks useful. Maybe I just suck.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Ice blocks are definitely not useless against Marth.
Even if you rarely hit with them, they can be used to manipulate his movement to a certain extent and apply pressure in situations in which you otherwise could not.
Blizzard is definitely the more useful projectile against him, though.
Even if you rarely hit with them, they can be used to manipulate his movement to a certain extent and apply pressure in situations in which you otherwise could not.
Blizzard is definitely the more useful projectile against him, though.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
But platforms shouldn't matter in this match-up; at least not more than in other match-ups, against characters who rely on them more. Against Marth I feel like it's 70-30 on final destination and 30-70 on any other stage (for me at least). Space to move around is the most important part imo.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
How can platforms not matter in this matchup. Any situation where your above Marth is bad, and in this case it's incredibly hard to come down since he can just force you to DI onto a platform. There is nothing Ice Climbers can do on a platform in this matchup other than get off the platform.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
And when marth is on a platform, we get a u-air which leads into just as much damage. I didn't say Marth can't use the platforms, but that's just a generic fact about how platforms work and it's true in any match-up.
I don't see why it would be harder to come down on a platform level than on FD. Top platforms are actually useful against Marth, Dreamland platforms are useful, Pokemon Stadium platforms hardly get in the way. On FD, what's to stop him from following you and outprioritizing you from below?
I don't see why it would be harder to come down on a platform level than on FD. Top platforms are actually useful against Marth, Dreamland platforms are useful, Pokemon Stadium platforms hardly get in the way. On FD, what's to stop him from following you and outprioritizing you from below?
Finch
Smash Lord
What the hell are you talking about? Platforms give marth like 30 more pressuring options in every situation. Uairs are a terrible pressuring tool because they are easy for him to cc and hit you if your spacing is bad, and easy for him to shield and then get away because they have so much lag, and his dair beats them anyway so him being above you on a platform isn't really that bad a situation for him, while you being above him on a platform can work out very badly for you.
If I had a lot of time I would make a demonstration of how to edgeguard marth in paint, but I don't so I'll try to explain it.
First of all, the most important tool you will ever use for edgeguarding marth is patience under pressure. 90% of good marths will go for the sweetspot every time. This is because dolphin slash is scary. It's really fast and if you get hit with it while you're still on the ledge you could get stagespiked or at least put into a bad situation off the stage. Marths know that when you're hanging on the edge, you really just want to get the hell off of it as soon as possible so you don't get hit, so they fall down there very slowly, go really low so that you think there's no way they're getting back now and roll back on the stage, then they use their second jump that they saved and up B straight to the edge. You have to grow balls of steel and hang on that **** edge until after you've seen them use their second jump. This will kill that ******* 90% of the time.
He might start catching on if he dies a lot from this, but you should know what to do if he goes for the stage instead of the ledge.
The rest of your options are for when he's kind of near the stage and you think he might just double jump near you and try to fair you. If he used his double jump early and you're hanging on the ledge, a ledgehopped nair can surprise him and kill him pretty easily. This also works with bair with certain spacing. If you're on the ledge and he's already below the stage but hasn't used his double jump yet, you can quickly do a desynched ice block and then fastfastfast get on the ledge with popo. If spaced correctly the iceblock should hit him while he double jumps and then he'll probably up B immediately while you're on the ledge with invincibility. I've gotten lots of marths with this. It also works on samus when she uses the grapple.
There are other things too like chu's dtilt > fsmash when he doesn't quite sweetspot. You just have to know what's appropriate for the situation and not get pressured into doing nothing. Marth has relatively little options for recovery, he's just really good at pressuring you into not doing anything. Don't get pressured and kill that douche.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
What the hell are you talking about? He can't punish sh u-air at all; if he ccs it you just u-air again, if he shields and jump you can follow him while he's in the air. The only stage this isn't true on is dreamland, and his platform pressuring game isn't as good their either. Having marth above you is good in essentially any situation.
And ffs,
Compare the role of platforms in this match-up to their role in any other match-up. Sheik and Fox use them to run away until they get a safe hit; landing grabs becomes much more of a task. Platforms reduce your combo game significantly against fastfallers. Even though small stages are clearly better against Falcon, FD is one of the best stages because the lack of platforms significantly boosts your capitalization on each hit.
This isn't true against Marth. He's not going to platform camp you because he doesn't have many good options for attacking you from above, and the platforms aren't going to hinder your combo game. Yes he pressures platforms well, and you might get separated if you get stuck on a platform, but that's not what makes or breaks the match-up.
On smaller levels -- YS, BF, FoD -- you're forced onto platforms far more often because he controls space better than you. On Pokemon Stadium, the match-up is better because you have more space to move around, and Dreamland is even better for the same reason. So yes, FD might be better slightly due to its simplicity, but my point was that space is by far the most important factor in this match-up.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I need to start doing that. It should be patented the "new Marth-killer".
Niko45
Smash Master
As a Marth, I love platform camping ICs. Getting hit by up air is never a big deal, and if the ICs chase and miss you get under them and now ur ******. There's also a chance nana gets snagged on a platform and in general they are just easier to hit and separate when they are in the air as opposed to WDing in and out of shield on the ground. Marth can also space dair on IC shield safely coming down from platforms, and if that connects it leads to 1/2 stock or more (probably more).
ICs are most threatening to Marth when they are both on the ground and the ICs are synced. It's very hard for Marth to seperate them from this position and he basically just tries to keep them out. This can slowly wear them down but since there are two of them they can find ways inside on Marth (and once they do, the punish is good enough to make up for whatever they were getting poked away with). Marth platform camping kind of reverses this dynamic. Where he is going to be eating non threatening hits often (up airs) but eventually he will get an opening with an opportunity to punish massively.
And if the ICs don't chase Marth up there then whatever, it just gives Marth a safe place to go since ICs are top tier when synced on the ground. Outspaced near the ledge? Platforms give Marth an escape.
ICs are most threatening to Marth when they are both on the ground and the ICs are synced. It's very hard for Marth to seperate them from this position and he basically just tries to keep them out. This can slowly wear them down but since there are two of them they can find ways inside on Marth (and once they do, the punish is good enough to make up for whatever they were getting poked away with). Marth platform camping kind of reverses this dynamic. Where he is going to be eating non threatening hits often (up airs) but eventually he will get an opening with an opportunity to punish massively.
And if the ICs don't chase Marth up there then whatever, it just gives Marth a safe place to go since ICs are top tier when synced on the ground. Outspaced near the ledge? Platforms give Marth an escape.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yup, IC's' strength is on the ground. Getting uaired a couple times isn't that bad for him, plus uairs are telegraphed badly.
You have to be super careful when dismounting from a platform though. The eskimos are always hungry for a wavedash d-smash or grab.
You have to be super careful when dismounting from a platform though. The eskimos are always hungry for a wavedash d-smash or grab.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea...just drop through and immediately DJ waveland back up to bait that. **** dair on shield what am I talking about.
Binx
Smash Master
I am of the opinion that Marth is our worst matchup followed by Peach then Fox.
There is a lot of useful stuff in the matchup thread about him and of course on this thread so i'm not gonna try and reiterate everything, but you definitely don't want to be above him ever, on any stage unless he is off the ledge.
Marth can keep us on platforms so well and because we fall so slowly he can **** us terribly on our way off of them, they also allow Marth to use them to move around the same way fox or sheik would, not quite as well but yeah its trouble. VS Marth I think CPing Mute City is pretty viable (unless he has a peach or jiggs secondary) because we can actually edgeguard him there and we don't get any chain throws on him so it doesnt really hurt that either, also he cant edgeguard us much harder there than on any other stage which is helpful. As far as neutrals go we get destroyed on all of them, but least to most bad would be FD, Poke (low ceilings, low platforms, can't ride the ledge), FoD (platforms will eventually lower for you so you can get off, they can also throw off his fair spacing when he is cornered and force jumps so we can get some uairs in, the blast zones are close which is a double edged sword, but I don't mind it too much cause its so hard to make it back on stage anyways, next up is battlefield which is similar to FoD except he can keep you on platforms more reliably and we can't pressure him as well there, of course Marth's Story its my favorite stage but against Marth its ********, at least we can get some cloud luck with Nana though.
There is a lot of useful stuff in the matchup thread about him and of course on this thread so i'm not gonna try and reiterate everything, but you definitely don't want to be above him ever, on any stage unless he is off the ledge.
Marth can keep us on platforms so well and because we fall so slowly he can **** us terribly on our way off of them, they also allow Marth to use them to move around the same way fox or sheik would, not quite as well but yeah its trouble. VS Marth I think CPing Mute City is pretty viable (unless he has a peach or jiggs secondary) because we can actually edgeguard him there and we don't get any chain throws on him so it doesnt really hurt that either, also he cant edgeguard us much harder there than on any other stage which is helpful. As far as neutrals go we get destroyed on all of them, but least to most bad would be FD, Poke (low ceilings, low platforms, can't ride the ledge), FoD (platforms will eventually lower for you so you can get off, they can also throw off his fair spacing when he is cornered and force jumps so we can get some uairs in, the blast zones are close which is a double edged sword, but I don't mind it too much cause its so hard to make it back on stage anyways, next up is battlefield which is similar to FoD except he can keep you on platforms more reliably and we can't pressure him as well there, of course Marth's Story its my favorite stage but against Marth its ********, at least we can get some cloud luck with Nana though.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Ganon's harder than Fox imo.
Binx
Smash Master
Eh i can go either way vs Ganon, I think the match up is pretty even, prolly cause Oregon doesn't have a lot of Ganon's like one and he doesn't even play anymore, I can see where it would be hard to get inside of him but once you do its done like dinner, and he isnt fast like Marth so its possible to way him out, if he ever baits you into rolling wrong though Ouch, also if your offstage your dead, but hes so fat and easy to combo and we have so many grab options on him its sillyness.
If Fox gets in on you quickly and pressures correctly with shines they **** us, if we grab him though we can do a ton of damage or stock them right off which is good but its SOOO hard to grab a good fox.
If Fox gets in on you quickly and pressures correctly with shines they **** us, if we grab him though we can do a ton of damage or stock them right off which is good but its SOOO hard to grab a good fox.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Fox is pretty much even, and Marth isn't as bad as Peach or Samus. Ganon (this match-up doesn't seem bad until you play Kage or Linguini) and Marth are pretty similar imo. Dreamland is better than Pokemon Stadium against Marth.
You guys clearly don't know how to use u-air. Niko, I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but IC players tend to have very different playstyles and I'm under the impression you mostly only play with one (the one in your crew). You're overlooking the fact that a synched u-air does around 20%, and easily leads into another u-air or b-air (another 20%). Sh u-air leads into just as much and is impossible for Marth to punish from above because it lasts forever and has no lag. The only viable way I see for Marth to come down is escaping to the top platform/other side and using a falling f-air.
You're right though that ICs definitely need to use their ground game in this match-up. The point I've been trying to make is exactly that -- you need to move around a lot to win this match-up. I wasn't trying to say that platforms are good in this match-up. Final Destination is particularly good because ICs have a lot of room to move around, but also partly because there's nothing that might bring you -off- the ground (on small platform stages you are more likely to be forced up onto platforms). Dreamland isn't as bad because you have plenty of room to move, and although there are platforms you're never really forced onto them and it's harder for both characters to pressure them.
You guys clearly don't know how to use u-air. Niko, I'm not trying to discredit your experience, but IC players tend to have very different playstyles and I'm under the impression you mostly only play with one (the one in your crew). You're overlooking the fact that a synched u-air does around 20%, and easily leads into another u-air or b-air (another 20%). Sh u-air leads into just as much and is impossible for Marth to punish from above because it lasts forever and has no lag. The only viable way I see for Marth to come down is escaping to the top platform/other side and using a falling f-air.
You're right though that ICs definitely need to use their ground game in this match-up. The point I've been trying to make is exactly that -- you need to move around a lot to win this match-up. I wasn't trying to say that platforms are good in this match-up. Final Destination is particularly good because ICs have a lot of room to move around, but also partly because there's nothing that might bring you -off- the ground (on small platform stages you are more likely to be forced up onto platforms). Dreamland isn't as bad because you have plenty of room to move, and although there are platforms you're never really forced onto them and it's harder for both characters to pressure them.
Finch
Smash Lord
My favorite stage against marth is yoshi's. He dies so early there, and if he's above you on a platform you can use a much better pressuring move--fair. If you space it right it should hit his feet with the tip and put him in an awful position even if he ccs.