Fighting against this character

[Wigglerman]

This doesn't explain Lucas. Even then, my point wasn't to complain about it, but to bring up that critical hits aren't magically unique to Dragon Quest.

Lucas suffered 'semi clone' syndrome and wouldn't get many if any new mechanics Ness didn't already possess. Otherwise it'd be a bit odd that Lucas had crits but Ness didn't considering they came from the same franchise.

And I understand your intent. Crits aren't unique to DQ. Heck, Pokémon are notorious for the mechanic as well yet PT doesn't have crits either. Just because one character from one type of game gets a mechanic that might be shared among them doesn't mean it should inherently belong to everyone of the same game type.

 

[MaddaD]

This doesn't explain Lucas. Even then, my point wasn't to complain about it, but to bring up that critical hits aren't magically unique to Dragon Quest.

Lucas has more or less the same argument as Ness. He's been in since Brawl and is so similar to Ness in terms of specials and kit that he doesn't need critical hits added to him.

It's likely that the devs either didn't know how to implement critical hits in previous Smash games or didn't want to, and simply included them with Hero just to say they did or since DQ is the grandpa of most jRPGs in the East.

 

[Misty Venn]

This doesn't explain Lucas. Even then, my point wasn't to complain about it, but to bring up that critical hits aren't magically unique to Dragon Quest.

MY point in this was that EG claimed there is no rhyme or reason for crits to be included in Hero's character... when it derives from an aspect of his game, pep. The way the Ness/Lucas get critical hits in their games doesn't even compare to Hero's pep mode crit potential, so you can take your issue with Lucas/Ness in the Lucas/Ness thread. I'm not saying they shouldn't have crits, but I am saying that argument in itself is irrelevant to Hero. Nobody said they were "magically unique" to Hero... I said there's a reason for it to be included (and not without purpose). Nothing to do with your telekinetic lover boy. Why is Charizard hydrophobic but not Incineroar? Because the game developers chose it that way and one has nothing to do with the other. My point is, your argument is invalid.

 

[suetake]

Does the fact that its the dq licence is the oldest rpg of the cast may play . I mean dq is the j rpg par excellence so put crit (which is an iconic part of rpg) in is gameplay isnt irrevelant right?

 

[JCaesar]

Does the fact that its the dq licence is the oldest rpg of the cast may play . I mean dq is the j rpg par excellence so put crit (which is an iconic part of rpg) in is gameplay isnt irrevelant right?

To take this one step further, maybe Hero has crits because Dragon Quest was the first game to ever have such a mechanic (which is certainly true for console, but I'm not sure if Wizardry or Ultima also had crits). Regardless Dragon Quest definitely popularized the concept of critical hits long before any other RPG franchise represented in Smash.

 

[TriforceBun]

Yeah, I figure Hero's crits are included because DQ pretty much "invented" critical hits in video games, at least in the JRPG sense. That's why it makes more sense for him than, say, the Pokemon or EarthBound characters.

 

[1FC0]

Otherwise it'd be a bit odd that Lucas had crits but Ness didn't considering they came from the same franchise.

You mean like how Robin has the Fire Emblem weapon break system while other Fire Emblem characters do not?

 

[Wigglerman]

You mean like how Robin has the Fire Emblem weapon break system while other Fire Emblem characters do not?

Yeah, pretty much. However Robin is designed around it while the others would need a total overhaul to make that mechanic work with them. (Though I'm unfamiliar with FE in general, did weapon breaking even exist in Marth and Roy's respective games or is that a more recent feature? if it's recent, then it'd make sense the OG swordies wouldn't be subjected to it)

 

[1FC0]

did weapon breaking even exist in Marth and Roy's respective games or is that a more recent feature?

Almost every FE game has it. E.g. Marth uses the Rapier and that weapon has durability as well. It would require some rebalancing but they could make Marth fall back on the Bronze Sword like Robin does. Though admittedly that would be pretty stupid since there would be no strategy involved. Marth uses his sword for almost all his attacks, so there is almost no falling back on other moves while his sword is gone and neither does it make sense to save the sword for certain parts of the fight because that would invalidate almost his entire moveset. Marth would just be a character that switches between being a powerful spacing based character to a weak fleeing based character and back.


But Critical hits are easier to fit in since the moveset is not based around it. If I can hit a FSmash with Hero then I'm probably going to do it whether it can CH or not. CH's are just an added bonus.

Now that I think about it, Marth actually does have Critical Hits: his tippers. They're not random, but that makes sense since normally it's only random because Marth uses the attack so his skill determines the CH rate, not the player's skill. But in Smash the player controls Marth more directly and thus the player's skill determines the CH rate. Same goes for Roy but he gets a "critical hit" when he hits with the base. I wonder if this was what they were going for originally, though it may be a bit redundant now with Marth's FS.

It's a bit comparable to how Pokemon moves with low accuracy like Thunder and Sing are hard to hit. They're not random since the player now plays the Pokemon directly but the low accuracy is still referenced. Luckily Aura Sphere is an exception to this rule.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

But Critical hits are easier to fit in since the moveset is not based around it. If I can hit a FSmash with Hero then I'm probably going to do it whether it can CH or not. CH's are just an added bonus.

I think this is the main problem with Hero. There's no negative RNG, only positive. I think if we added a critical fail to smash attacks, or added spells that were detrimental, less people would complain about Hero. And before anyone says it, yes, Hocus Pocus can be be negative, but you can just straight up avoid it or pray it gives you something godly like invincibility. Either way this is the only instance of possible negative RNG, and it's very easy to work around.

 

[1FC0]

I think this is the main problem with Hero. There's no negative RNG, only positive. I think if we added a critical fail to smash attacks, or added spells that were detrimental, less people would complain about Hero. And before anyone says it, yes, Hocus Pocus can be be negative, but you can just straight up avoid it or pray it gives you something godly like invincibility. Either way this is the only instance of possible negative RNG, and it's very easy to work around.

I do not think that it's a good idea to give Hero negative RNG. It's his moves, so they should normally benefit him. The negative RNG is when Hero does not get anything good and wasted his time.

I also do not think that CH on his smashes is broken. Hero's smashes are bad. His FSmash is very slow, his USmash has almost no range, and his DSmash is a slow move with limited range.

I'm not a huge fan of the CH mechanic but I'm not really bothered by it either. I play R.O.B. and he has random tripping on his DTilt which allows him stronger combo's. That's like a CH too, but no one complains about that.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I do not think that it's a good idea to give Hero negative RNG. It's his moves, so they should normally benefit him. The negative RNG is when Hero does not get anything good and wasted his time.

I also do not think that CH on his smashes is broken. Hero's smashes are bad. His FSmash is very slow, his USmash has almost no range, and his DSmash is a slow move with limited range.

I'm not a huge fan of the CH mechanic but I'm not really bothered by it either. I play R.O.B. and he has random tripping on his DTilt which allows him stronger combo's. That's like a CH too, but no one complains about that.

First of all, I don't think that's even close to a good comparison. Critical hits can kill mid-weight characters at below 30% from mid-stage. If ROBs D-tilt could do that, then people would definitely complain. I just think they should be nerfed a little is all.

But I think you're right about negative RNG, maybe there shouldn't be any. I just think that the good RNG that he gets should be toned down a little bit. Mainly I'm referring to Crits and (Th)Wack. Crits should either not hit as hard or be more rare, and (Th)Wack should be less likely to kill at mid percents, but more likely to kill at higher percents. I think that's a fair trade off.

 

[1FC0]

First of all, I don't think that's even close to a good comparison. Critical hits can kill mid-weight characters at below 30% from mid-stage. If ROBs D-tilt could do that, then people would definitely complain. I just think they should be nerfed a little is all.

You are right. But it is comparable to Peach's vB, Green Missle, and Judge.

 

[Ethan Weegee]

You are right. But it is comparable to Peach's vB, Green Missle, and Judge.

It isn't, because multiple characters can trip with down tilt. You still have to get in with the move, trip, and then follow up. Contrast this with Hero's forward smash - if even the least skilled player uses it enough, they'll likely get at least one hit, which means they could get a critical hit and erase a stock by chance.

 

[1FC0]

It isn't, because multiple characters can trip with down tilt.

You missunderstood me. "it" was referring to critical hits. What I mean was that critical hits are comparable to Peach's vB, Judge, and Green Missle.

However:

You still have to get in with the move

Same for Fsmash, except Fsmash is much harder to hit and easier to punish on miss.

trip

That's just RNG. for a critical hit Hero still has to make a critical hit.

and then follow up

That's just reaction and muscle memory. The opponent has little influence on this.

Contrast this with Hero's forward smash - if even the least skilled player uses it enough, they'll likely get at least one hit, which means they could get a critical hit and erase a stock by chance.

Hero's Fsmash is very hard to hit and and very easy to punish on miss. If the least skilled player uses Fsmash enough, he's mostly just going miss and get punished very hard. In fact it's R.O.B.'s Dtilt that's easy to hit and safe to miss, so this argument just works against your intended point.

Hero's CH is different from R.O.B.'s tripping because the former is stronger than the latter when it occurs. But Peach's Bombs are strong too, just like Judge and a Green Missle misfire. Though of all those RNG based moves critical hit has the most chance of occuring so that is probably the best counter argument there.

 

[R-senpai]

Hero has **** tons of lag, and startup. Just pressure him a lot and we won't have time to pull out the menu.

 

[REZERO]

Been playing against some heroes online, they've been pretty underwhelming, they really dont utilize the super armor from his side b and extremely bad at spacing.

 

[Wiziliz]

Imagine thinking Hero's broken.
Frame data is a thing, and his moves that can be scary when they kill early, such as Whack, critical hit forward smash and Thwack, aren't moves that will even be hitting good opponents.
I mean, look at Magic Burst, a move that uses all of his MP, yet the opponent can just shield it. It's only good as an edgeguard.