Fighting against this character

Raman Baby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
7
#1
Congratulation Hero players! You are now playing the most annoying, broken and stupid character in the game!

Seriously though, how do you deal with hes super moves? How can you predict it?
 

HenryXLII

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#2
You just have to respect his options. If you see a Hero opening his menu, don’t run at him, or if you do attack him from behind since he cannot turn around.

Respect Fire Ball as well. It’s a scary move, but is easy to react to if Hero isn’t sneaky about using it.

Hero has really weak air mobility, so he has to commit hard on all of his actions, making him easy to read. You can also jump towards him when he is charging thunder for a free punish.

Hero also has a really weak recovery game, yeah he has Zoom, but relying on that is a risk.

When Hero is out of MP, he becomes a bellow average character. Take advantage of this and force him to spend his MP on things like recovery.

When Hero casts accelerate, he becomes much harder to control, take advantage of this and hit him with some of your most powerful moves. He will likely run into them if he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

All in all, Hero is an opportunist character that relies on his opponents being scared. Play safe around him, and go in hard when he inevitably commits to an option.
 
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Joined
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#3
You just have to respect his options. If you see a Hero opening his menu, don’t run at him, or if you do attack him from behind since he cannot turn around.
Actually, can turn around during Command Selection, if you press left or right when selecting the spell, you'll do it in that direction.
 

CircularSaw

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
9
#4
You just have to respect his options. If you see a Hero opening his menu, don’t run at him, or if you do attack him from behind since he cannot turn around.
Can't he cast his spells both sides ? Also, there's the risk he gets Magic Burst. Projectiles really seems like the safest option, just be ready to jump in case he gets Bounce at the last moment. If you have no projectile, I guess you have to rush him down, not giving him an opening for down B.
 
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Jade_Rock

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2012
Messages
143
#6
Just run away when he command menu's. Seriously seeing people shooting projectiles when he has bounce is asking to die. Running in with flame slash (frame 6) is a bad idea.

Some are pretty dumb though. Magic burst/Kamikaze is a broken edgeguard. Random crits isn't that necessary (1/8 may be much) maybe like 5%? Thwack killing at 0(granted it's like 1% but still) is hilarious, but kinda broken.

I'd perfer if his some spells were toned down for better normals, but maybe he'd be broken then. I like what they are going for and execution isn't terrible. He's fun for sure.
 
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Qualudes

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
48
Location
Virginia
#7
I am not having any issues with The Hero so far. It seems that any character with a quick reflector just beats him. Way too early to determine where he sits with the rest of the cast, but I think he feels like high mid-tier, or low high-tier. My only experience fighting The Hero so far have been with Wolf and Fox however, those may just be rough match-ups.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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4,573
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#10
Just go in and kill him. This sounds simplistic but seriously it's the answer. The Hero sucks at landing, has an exploitable recovery, has generally poor frame data, and his specials all reward him for charging or fooling with menus and further he recovers MP for time passing at that. Every incentive in the world is there for you to rush the guy down and just kill him before he gets to do anything useful. If you play defensively, respect everything that might happen even though most of the time Hero hits down-B he won't have that one special ready to shut you down, and try to just react to his stuff and counter what you see coming, you're probably going to lose every time so just... don't do that. Obviously this thought process works best if you play a fast character like Fox or Pikachu that benefited a lot from playing this way otherwise, and you're probably going to struggle if you main someone like Mega Man who doesn't really take to these types of tactics. If you do play a projectile character or someone who necessarily has to go at a pace slower than breakneck, at a minimum, be sure you're always pressuring him. The main thing the Hero needs to get going is time, and therefore, your primary objective should be depriving him of that whenever possible. Make the game about him fearing what you're doing and worrying whether he'll ever get a chance to do his stuff; this is often good advice in general, but Hero really emphasizes the importance of controlling the match for yourself more than other characters.

If I'm being honest, I think Hero seems dead middle at best and probably lower mid. He's really fun to play and I really enjoy him, but he's just so slow and really flat out lacking in truly solid answers to aggression and fast play. I think as a counterpick character he'll prove to have immense value since he is really good at countering specific problematic characters and playstyles, but I know I'd be terrified to actually main this guy. He just has too many downsides, and in the context of tournament play where the most important thing is winning a lot of games in a row, having more RNG than everyone else definitely highlights the downsides of RNG more than the upsides. Of course, a character this complex can never be written off quickly, but I'm just not optimistic things will work out for him.
 

Coolboy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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#11
the only thing i find of hero is his damage amount..that needs a nerf period..35% damage after 1 hit? what do you mean fair fight? getting killed at 45%? bull****
they need to nerf the amount of damage you receive from his moves
do not get me wrong, other then that i find nothing wrong with him but anyone who is fine with this amount of damage..well i guess you like Ganondord 2.0 then :l
and i did defeat Hero players so no i do not suck against him but still it's very obvious that some things need to be fixed about him!
 
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KatKit

Smash Ace
Joined
May 7, 2014
Messages
735
#12
I've only lost to two online so far, and one of them insta-killed me at like 5%. Stray lucky hits aside, the character is surprisingly balanced considering his large array of attacks (with the exception of a couple of overtuned spells). He has glaring weaknesses, and is pretty fun to fight, IMO.
 

Qualudes

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
48
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#13
the only thing i find of hero is his damage amount..that needs a nerf period..35% damage after 1 hit? what do you mean fair fight? getting killed at 45%? bull****
they need to nerf the amount of damage you receive from his moves
do not get me wrong, other then that i find nothing wrong with him but anyone who is fine with this amount of damage..well i guess you like Ganondord 2.0 then :l
and i did defeat Hero players so no i do not suck against him but still it's very obvious that some things need to be fixed about him!
Couldn't agree more. I recently picked up Falco for fun and maybe as a secondary to Wolf... not so sure about that prospect now. Pre-Elite Smash is flooded with "Hero's" and fighting the character is just aggravating. I think Hero may be worse for the online climate of Smash Ultimate than Bayonetta ever was for Smash 4 simply because Bayo required skill to use effectively.

The sad thing is I really don't see a nerf happening to Hero's damage and knock-back values any time soon because I doubt his win-rate online is out of line with the rest of the cast.
 

Coolboy

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#14
Couldn't agree more. I recently picked up Falco for fun and maybe as a secondary to Wolf... not so sure about that prospect now. Pre-Elite Smash is flooded with "Hero's" and fighting the character is just aggravating. I think Hero may be worse for the online climate of Smash Ultimate than Bayonetta ever was for Smash 4 simply because Bayo required skill to use effectively.

The sad thing is I really don't see a nerf happening to Hero's damage and knock-back values any time soon because I doubt his win-rate online is out of line with the rest of the cast.
even Samus can't kill you in 2/3 hits with her neutral B fully charged she needs to hit you 6 to 7 times depending on the character and stage to actually be able to kill you.
but if they would only nerf 1 thing then it really has to be that neutral B..i can still tolerate the spells but that neutral B is annoying the **** out of me and alot of people. instead of 35% damage it should be 17%/18% maybe 20% but that's really the limit,
i really hate fighting hero in a 1v1 to the point i honestly just wanna turn off my switch because i just really don't want to it's just not fun for me at all.
even though i didn't lost all my 1v1 against hero matches i still really really really hate it,
that nerf just needs to happen, people just spam neutral B but unlike Samus you are screwed if you get hit by it twice or 3 times...
 

Warwick J

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
7
#15
I just disconnect my internet if a Hero kills me with whack. I don't care. A projectile that can kill at any percent sakurai?? Did you really think people would have fun?

It's a cancer camp rewarding character. The strategy is to get a lead, spam spells until you kill the opponent, if you don't, kamikaze when you are low health to even things out.
The counter strategy to play against him is to go bat **** crazy aggressive even if your character doesn't like bat **** crazy aggressive, so he doesn't have time to charge ****, and hope he doesn't press down be and select something cancer without looking and kill you.

He is not whatsoever OP. He is just cancer camping annoying, like duck hunt duo, but imagine if duck hunt duo had a perma reflector, heal and a 1-shoot-1-kill projectile. I agree that he is mid tier, no doubt. But when you start rewarding camping and rng luck, the game gets less fun to play and to watch.

Wanna have a camping cancer character? Fine, but give this cancer camping character some counter strategy that is reliable.
Solutions: Just remove tilting unfair cancer spells like whack, twhack and kamikaze. Get rid of free kill mana burst cancer too. Or make that **** blockable.

Neutral cancer B does 39%. It's more than lucario's aura sphere with max aura. That is just stupid. Nerf that ****. Make the charging longer, or the damage not so cancerous. Don't want to nerf the damage? Fine, make it cost 60 Mana so the camper cancer hero can't spam it like it was nothing.

Hero, fun to play with cos I know I am frustrating the enemy, and that's apparently fun in this community.
Hero, cancerous to play against cos I get frustrated.
I am in elite with every relevant character to me (around 20-30 characters), and I win MOST matches against hero, so this is not a complaint about me tired of losing to him (like i was perma losing to cancer joker until I started playing with him and figured out what to do). So he is not OP at all. Just a new cancer-makes-you-wanna-play-minecraft-or-something-else kinda character.
 

TriforceBun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
136
#17
Suggesting that Hero doesn't require skill is ridiculous. Command Selection--choosing abilities on the fly by immediately reacting to four choices--is one of the most mentally-taxing moves of any character. Add to this the management of MP for portioning out buffs, attacks and recoveries, and Hero has a crazy number of options to keep tabs on in order to make up for his slower normals.
 
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Qualudes

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
48
Location
Virginia
#18
Suggesting that Hero doesn't require skill is ridiculous. Command Selection--choosing abilities on the fly by immediately reacting to four choices--is one of the most mentally-taxing moves of any character. Add to this the management of MP for portioning out buffs, attacks and recoveries, and Hero has a crazy number of options to keep tabs on in order to make up for his slower normals.
He is probably the most difficult character to optimize in smash history, no argument there. When I said that he was "worse for the online climate of Smash Ultimate than Bayonetta ever was for Smash 4 simply because Bayo required skill to use effectively" I was making the observation that historically powerful characters in Smash have relied on technical mastery rather than RNG mechanics. Hero is a blend of both (skewing towards the latter) that has benefited from match-up unfamiliarity and radically over-tuned damage and knockback values.
All characters at a certain level require skill to be viable, and I am simply saying that Hero is being over-represented at lower GSP because he's new; requires a lot less skill to be used effectively against people trying to learn new characters; and is making the online climate annoying for people working on secondaries. Nothing against people that are playing the character, just pointing out certain advantages that the character has especially online. Why do you think Ganondorf can be such a pain in the *** online but IRL is a cakewalk 9 times out of 10?
 

TriforceBun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
136
#19
He is probably the most difficult character to optimize in smash history, no argument there. When I said that he was "worse for the online climate of Smash Ultimate than Bayonetta ever was for Smash 4 simply because Bayo required skill to use effectively" I was making the observation that historically powerful characters in Smash have relied on technical mastery rather than RNG mechanics. Hero is a blend of both (skewing towards the latter) that has benefited from match-up unfamiliarity and radically over-tuned damage and knockback values.
All characters at a certain level require skill to be viable, and I am simply saying that Hero is being over-represented at lower GSP because he's new; requires a lot less skill to be used effectively against people trying to learn new characters; and is making the online climate annoying for people working on secondaries. Nothing against people that are playing the character, just pointing out certain advantages that the character has especially online. Why do you think Ganondorf can be such a pain in the *** online but IRL is a cakewalk 9 times out of 10?
Ah okay, that's a lot clearer now, thanks.
 

Sebas22

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
187
#20
Hero is obnoxious, annoying, deals too much damage, can recover MP fast and has some of the best special moves in the game.

Despite that, I absolutely enjoy fighting Hero in Quickplay. There's no better feeling than beating someone who plays a broken character. I'll never forget that one time a Hero wanted to style on me and used Kafrizz in the air right next to me. I was Shulk. "Vision!". Good times.
 

Raman Baby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
7
#21
Here is what I would do to balance him in a fair way:

- He's special moves should cost way more MP
- MP should restored at a much slower rate
- The special moves that kills one instantly(thwack?) should be removed from the game(unfortunately this will never happen)
- The special move where a huge force field is created around him that kills at low % should be severely nerfed
- He's chargeable fireball should do less damage and knockback(currently overpowered)
- Buff he's areal moves(end lag) to make up for the nerfs
 
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Predatoria

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#22
I've ran into tons of them on quickplay. I don't really see him as that OP or problematic to be totally honest. Almost all of his specials hit in front of him, so no matter what he does with his B menu thing you can bet on being safe if you approach with that in mind.

The character is pretty slow, and I don't find it too difficult to find an opening or string several attacks on him when I get a grab or combo starting move.

His recover is gimpable and you can knock him out of it or prevent him from making it back to the ledge.

The move I find most threatening in his arsenal, personally, is his neutral B, rather than anything coming out of the down B menu, and that's not RNG-based.

I really just don't see him as that OP, don't really mind fighting against Hero (Actually I enjoy fighting Hero tbh), and his RNG elements rarely are the deciding factor in a match. It's more often that I win or lose based off just regular smash skills and moves.
 
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strider2k

Smash Cadet
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Jan 21, 2003
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#23
I would consider my top 3 characters at the moment are Lucina / Palutena / Joker.

With that being said, I usually pick up other characters to understand their frame data and feel for the game. So after playing Erdrick / Loto on Quickplay and against coworkers, I can say it's a super uphill battle with Hero. Maybe I'm not using the Command Menu because I'm trying to less rely on RNG and instead on his awesome B and side-B specials. Anyway, he's just a slower version of a Link with a crappier recovery. I hate having to fish / pray for a Zoom so when I'm off stage, I'm at the mercy of the opponent's gimping options. Aerials are slow so I have to sort of space and read the opponent. It's just not fun.

I was matched up against a Marth (only 1 game) and boy did he/she mopped the floor with me. It was on an Omega stage and I couldn't get him off me. Since I play Lucina, I KNOW the spacing of everything including the dancing blades. I then played against a Palutena on Battlefield stages and out of 10 games, I only won 2 of them because of a lucky Magic Burst or Thwack that happened to be in my Command Menu when I was edge guarding. I optimally DI'ed out of the dthrow and nair but it was the combo of quick movement and ledge guarding with nair that sealed the deal.

When I'm done playing / learning Hero and go back to my mains, I know for sure how to deal with the bad frame data.
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2019
Messages
39
#24
This thread is a bunch of hating on Hero, but nobody actually reported trying some of the earlier posts' suggestions to counter Hero? That's a bit silly. A lot of this hate is just that he's a new character, and we're still figuring out how to play against him.

Personally I think he's not a big deal. He isn't a great character since he doesn't have combo potential, with bad throws and attacks. He relies a lot on his specials which makes him a lot more predictable than the average character. I see neutral special was brought up a lot, but his neutral special is not great. It's slow and doesn't seem like a good kill move because of that. You can't charge it in the same way that you can Samus' charge shot, because it has to be charged at once. The damage it does is up there, but I don't see it falling below 25% while being a viable move.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
97
#25
His Side-Special and Neutral Special are by no means 'fast'. His fireball is slow and he can't 'store' his charge unless he fully charges it in one swoop, unlike Samus and the like. The Fireball is best used as a tech roll coverage option and not much else outside punishing wreckless jump ins or to wittle a weakened shield. It's big but pretty slow (Slower than a Samus Charge Shot for sure).

Side Special has a lot of prep before it even goes off. Even for the mid charge longer ranged bolt. Not too hard to react to (And a lot of small characters can just duck or dash under it, like Pika or Inkling just as two off the cuff examples)

As for Down Special...you can see the menu too. You can see what he is selecting. That gives you a lot of knowledge on how to approach (or not approach).

Also his frame data on every other move is aweful sans his Up Special which is pretty darn quick and is his only 'get off me' type of move and isn't that threatening. It just tacks a few % and throws you away and forces a neutral reset for the most part.

Is he annoying? Yeah, it CAN be but I don't find him annoying at all since he's easy to combo and kill without too much in the form of real retaliation. He gets out spaced (his sword hitbox is abysmal. especially in the air), out zoned by faster more spammy zoners, and out comboed as he lacks any major combos to speak of outside of early down throw to fair. He doesn't have many true kill set ups and relies on heavy reads or conditioning (or random crit) to close stocks while also being quite slow compared to most contenders.

The key to winning is don't be wreckless while also not giving him any time to charge or menu surf.

The character truely struggles in 1v1. I still believe he'll be quite potent in doubles, where he'll find his true potential as a massive support/stock ender with an ally to keep the heat off him for just the amount of time he needs to get rolling.

It's a cancer camp rewarding character.
He can't camp because he's too slow to camp. He's not that type of character at all. He can only 'camp' if he gets Accelleratle but that doesn't last long and he can barely control himself, let alone get to the other side of the stage and open a menu before his opponent is back on top of him.
 
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Vale345

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
3
#26
You go online: OK now I will win
Starts battle
Me : I hope no hero
Appears hero
Me : AHHHHHHHHHH
You start fighting/ he doesn't even use down b
Me : YES A DUDE THAT CAN'T THE HERO, YES!
By the way I'm happy that the hero is for now banned in Australia, I hope also in others countries :-D
 

Wigglerman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
97
#27
You go online: OK now I will win
Starts battle
Me : I hope no hero
Appears hero
Me : AHHHHHHHHHH
You start fighting/ he doesn't even use down b
Me : YES A DUDE THAT CAN'T THE HERO, YES!
By the way I'm happy that the hero is for now banned in Australia, I hope also in others countries :-D

I went online last night as Hero and won only a handful of matches merely because my opponents didn't pressure me nearly enough and barely even got to use my spell menu, so I won using basic fundamentals and having to really rely on reads and spacing. Even with them not playing 'properly' I struggled to win every fight. I'm not the worlds best player but I'm no slouch IMO. Banning Hero is just stupid.

Aussies better not go out of country to tournaments or they'll have to face a Hero now and again and have no one to blame but themselves if they lose against the character. It won't be RNG that kills them so much as just not learning the match up (Which is a super easy match up).
 
Joined
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#28
I played against a few heroes with Lucina over the weekend on Battlefield-type stages over quickplay. They all had issues against utilt and aerials when they were in disadvantage. TBH, they were pretty much SOL when they were in disadvantaged state. Whenever they bring up their command menu, I glanced over it as well. If it's magic burst, I stay the F*** away until he/she cancels the menu. I'm constantly in their face so they don't have time to bring the menu up or charge up their fire.

I think it's dumb to ban the Hero. He's not good at all. I encourage everyone to play the Hero for a few days to familiarized with his mechanics which will instill a better game plan against him. For those who want to main Hero, godspeed.
 

EGsmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
116
#29
I've been playing some Hero (as and against) and even if you never touch Down-B he's a broken character. Poor character design, poorly balanced for the game. He's fun to play but he feels grossly out of place for Ultimate - as if a different team entirely designed his moveset and then never went back to edit out the things that shouldn't be there. File it under "WTF was Sakurai thinking?"

Even so, you could cut down on 50% of the BS with this character just be removing that God-awful unnecessary critical hit system.
 

Wigglerman

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Messages
97
#30
I've been playing some Hero (as and against) and even if you never touch Down-B he's a broken character. Poor character design, poorly balanced for the game. He's fun to play but he feels grossly out of place for Ultimate - as if a different team entirely designed his moveset and then never went back to edit out the things that shouldn't be there. File it under "WTF was Sakurai thinking?"

Even so, you could cut down on 50% of the BS with this character just be removing that God-awful unnecessary critical hit system.
And what, praytell, about his kit (outside of down special) is broken? Elaborate.
 
Joined
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Messages
473
#31
Regardless of the fate of Hero being banned or not (I don’t think he should be for the record) I think we can all agree that Hero is without a doubt the most enigmatic character in all of smash, like to my memory I can’t recall a character before with this many arguments of whether or not they are broken or not it’s crazy
 
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#32
Usually when someone says "broken", it means they are super unbalanced and powerful. Like using Akuma in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo is broken. Hero is definitely not broken in Smash Ultimate. He's just not good.
 

EGsmash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
116
#33
And what, praytell, about his kit (outside of down special) is broken? Elaborate.
I already did. The crit system is way out of place on this character in this game. There's no reason for it to exist, and it doesn't change the way he plays. His attacks are somewhat slow but they're still powerful by themselves, plus he has great ranging tools with side B and neutral B. No other characters have crits on smash attacks, even the ones who don't have other ranging tools to compensate. There is literally zero reason for it to exist for this character aside from being a gimmick.
 
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