Fallacies in Christianity

[Chaco]

then the bible is wrong about god

I do not believe so. But that is your opinion, I believe God is perfect. I was talking about humans.

 

[AltF4]

Just think about what you're saying: A perfect being creating imperfect creatures? It doesn't make sense. He is then, by definition, not perfect. A perfect being would have made perfect creatures.

Clearly it is better to create perfect things than imperfect things.

 

[snex]

I do not believe so. But that is your opinion, I believe God is perfect. I was talking about humans.

humans wrote the bible. humans copied the bible. humans translated the bible. humans read the bible. humans interpret the bible.

 

[Chaco]

Just think about what you're saying: A perfect being creating imperfect creatures? It doesn't make sense. He is then, by definition, not perfect. A perfect being would have made perfect creatures.

Clearly it is better to create perfect things than imperfect things.

Okay. My bad, I posted some unflowing things.

Do you know of anything that is perfect?

And really it all depends on what you consider perfection really. I actually, now thinking about it, would say that God isn't perfect. Omnipotence isn't perfection. And many would consider having emotion as a weakness which would fall under imperfection. But really, how can you measure perfection? I think it also depends on that.

 

[arrowhead]

Okay. My bad, I posted some unflowing things.

Do you know of anything that is perfect?

And really it all depends on what you consider perfection really. I actually, now thinking about it, would say that God isn't perfect. Omnipotence isn't perfection. And many would consider having emotion as a weakness which would fall under imperfection. But really, how can you measure perfection? I think it also depends on that.

you can't measure perfection. that's why the christian god is a silly concept

 

[pockyD]

I actually, now thinking about it, would say that God isn't perfect.

whoa now

 

[Chaco]

whoa now

Okay. I thought wrong, after reading up on a few things, I have restored my faith in his perfection.


http://www.omegafaith.org/godisperfect.htm

 

[snex]

Okay. I thought wrong, after reading up on a few things, I have restored my faith in his perfection.


http://www.omegafaith.org/godisperfect.htm

that website contradicts itself.

it says "all that He says or does is perfect. God cannot issue forth from Himself anything that is imperfect" and yet admits that humans are a product of god and are imperfect. CONTRADICTION!

 

[arrowhead]

Okay. I thought wrong, after reading up on a few things, I have restored my faith in his perfection.


http://www.omegafaith.org/godisperfect.htm

lol it sounds like you're TRYING to stay christian, like it's a horrible thing to be atheist

"God cannot issue forth from Himself anything that is imperfect, for imperfection does not dwell within Him."
so how does he create imperfect beings?

 

[marthanoob]

What is perfection? Who decides what perfection is? There is no basis of comparison. If God says he is perfect, we cannot doubt, because he cannot prove it. The "perfection" argument has absolutely no evidence to back it. I would relate it to a child blabbering the thoughts of his imagination.

 

[arrowhead]

What is perfection? Who decides what perfection is? There is no basis of comparison. If God says he is perfect, we cannot doubt, because he cannot prove it. The "perfection" argument has absolutely no evidence to back it. I would relate it to a child blabbering the thoughts of his imagination.

then I am perfect because i can't prove it

wait, that is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. we can't doubt something that's unprovable?!

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

If God is perfect, then man is perfect because we were made in God's image. If man is imperfect, God is imperfect.

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

On the subject of the "evil" mass killings in the OT:

God is holy. The way he presents himself in the Bible is as a God in whom no evil resides and who does not tolerate evil. He does not command evil things to be done, even though the Bible is full of examples of how the holy God uses the evil deeds of people to serve his ultimate purposes. But, again, that doesn't make God evil, and it doesn't mean he commands evil things to be done. "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell" (Psalm 5:4).

Sometimes the Bible records accounts of God extending his judgment upon those who have rejected him and/or tried to lead God's own people to reject him. Such is the case in all the instances you cite. In these instances God is not evil nor is he commanding evil things to be done. He is punishing evil. To read these accounts is to see God's just punishment upon unbelief and thus to see God's holy law in all its terrifying severity. The manner in which God metes out his justice in these accounts may be described as shocking, sobering, or violent. But we really can't call it evil and still maintain our objectivity about the nature of a holy God.

 

[arrowhead]

so luigi, why do you think it's possible for god to create imperfect beings if "God cannot issue forth from Himself anything that is imperfect"?

On the subject of the "evil" mass killings in the OT:

God is holy. The way he presents himself in the Bible is as a God in whom no evil resides and who does not tolerate evil. He does not command evil things to be done, even though the Bible is full of examples of how the holy God uses the evil deeds of people to serve his ultimate purposes. But, again, that doesn't make God evil, and it doesn't mean he commands evil things to be done. "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell" (Psalm 5:4).

Sometimes the Bible records accounts of God extending his judgment upon those who have rejected him and/or tried to lead God's own people to reject him. Such is the case in all the instances you cite. In these instances God is not evil nor is he commanding evil things to be done. He is punishing evil. To read these accounts is to see God's just punishment upon unbelief and thus to see God's holy law in all its terrifying severity. The manner in which God metes out his justice in these accounts may be described as shocking, sobering, or violent. But we really can't call it evil and still maintain our objectivity about the nature of a holy God.

god kills people who reject him, god uses evil deeds to serve his purposes, god is holy

stalin also kills people who oppose his and he also uses evil deeds to serve his purposes. i guess we can't fault him for any of that stuff huh?

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

um... weren't we talking about God's so-called "perfection"?

 

[JediKnightLuigi]

yeah, but thats been a topic a while already on this thread, just not the current topic.

 

[arrowhead]

so luigi, what do you think about a god who is incapable of issuing forth imperfection creating imperfect beings?

and would you say stalin in evil for killing everyone who opposes him? why or why not?

 

[snex]

On the subject of the "evil" mass killings in the OT:

God is holy. The way he presents himself in the Bible is as a God in whom no evil resides and who does not tolerate evil. He does not command evil things to be done, even though the Bible is full of examples of how the holy God uses the evil deeds of people to serve his ultimate purposes. But, again, that doesn't make God evil, and it doesn't mean he commands evil things to be done. "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell" (Psalm 5:4).

Sometimes the Bible records accounts of God extending his judgment upon those who have rejected him and/or tried to lead God's own people to reject him. Such is the case in all the instances you cite. In these instances God is not evil nor is he commanding evil things to be done. He is punishing evil. To read these accounts is to see God's just punishment upon unbelief and thus to see God's holy law in all its terrifying severity. The manner in which God metes out his justice in these accounts may be described as shocking, sobering, or violent. But we really can't call it evil and still maintain our objectivity about the nature of a holy God.

as others have mentioned, offering excuses as to why god is allowed to do these things leaves you unable to make any moral decisions whatsoever. if god is allowed to perform ANY ACT AT ALL and still not be labeled "evil" then "evil" has no real meaning, and you cant judge the actions of stalin, hitler, or anybody else. for all you know, god was working through them. you certainly cant prove he wasnt, and since youre willing to admit that god can employ such tactics, you have no way to refute the idea.

its ironic that christians attempt to fault atheists for having no grounding for morality, but as luigi's post demonstrates, christians are on the most shaky ground of all. they still havent been able to deal with euthyphro's 2000 year old dilemma. how sad.

 

[Quicksand]

as others have mentioned, offering excuses as to why god is allowed to do these things leaves you unable to make any moral decisions whatsoever. if god is allowed to perform ANY ACT AT ALL and still not be labeled "evil" then "evil" has no real meaning, and you cant judge the actions of stalin, hitler, or anybody else. for all you know, god was working through them. you certainly cant prove he wasnt, and since youre willing to admit that god can employ such tactics, you have no way to refute the idea.

its ironic that christians attempt to fault atheists for having no grounding for morality, but as luigi's post demonstrates, christians are on the most shaky ground of all. they still havent been able to deal with euthyphro's 2000 year old dilemma. how sad.

Difference between God's wiping out of the nation of Amalek and Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews:

Jews - Regular group of people who like to sell crappy electronics in New York.

Amalakites - Barbaric group of heathens who liked to sacrifice their children to false gods by burning them alive, have gay sex orgies, **** dogs and goats, and declared war against the Israelites who had already been publicly chosen as God's group of people.

One thing you can be sure of, God doesn't do anything unless he has a **** good reason for it.

 

[cman]

Difference between God's wiping out of the nation of Amalek and Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews:

Jews - Regular group of people who like to sell crappy electronics in New York.

Amalakites - Barbaric group of heathens who liked to sacrifice their children to false gods by burning them alive, have gay sex orgies, **** dogs and goats, and declared war against the Israelites who had already been publicly chosen as God's group of people.

One thing you can be sure of, God doesn't do anything unless he has a **** good reason for it.

The 'Bad Guys' actions are always exaggerated. Just like the Japanese and German soldiers, were the sub-human epitome of evil deserving of the worst of totures, etc..., in the propaganda posters during world war 2, just about everything in the bible was probably greatly exaggerted.

 

[chucklesXcore]

The 'Bad Guys' actions are always exaggerated. Just like the Japanese and German soldiers, were the sub-human epitome of evil deserving of the worst of totures, etc..., in the propaganda posters during world war 2, just about everything in the bible was probably greatly exaggerted.

where can you cite that the everything in the bible is exaggerated? enlighten me. I grant you, that some parts of the bible are just a lot of flowery language, metaphors, and exaggerations, but not everything in there is meant to be looked at in that way. If you can give me some evidence I'd like to see that.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

where can you cite that the everything in the bible is exaggerated? enlighten me. I grant you, that some parts of the bible are just a lot of flowery language, metaphors, and exaggerations, but not everything in there is meant to be looked at in that way. If you can give me some evidence I'd like to see that.

Um... it's pretty much just a part of historical writing...

Have you ever heard of the expression "The winner gets to write history"?

The bible is written by man, all people have bias so all writing is biased to a degree.

I haven't posted in the Debate Halls lately mainly because of people who make extreme religious statements and then demand facts and concrete examples from everyone else trying to make a point.

 

[AltF4]

Here's another problem I've had with typical christian dogma:

Christian doctrine says that god has a plan. A divine plan. God made this plan a long time ago and is sticking to it. After all, it wouldn't be a very divine plan if he had to change it, yes? Certainly there can't be any room for improvement in a divine plan.

But now we switch to prayer. Christian doctrine says that you can pray to god to ask him for things, and if you're really good he might just give it to you. People ask for things all the time! They want their cancer cured, a better job, food on the table, a stable relationship, etc...

And when god doesn't answer someone's prayer, they are told "It's all part of god's plan".

Well, then what was the point of praying to begin with?! What you're praying for is either in god's plan or it's not, asking the big guy about it isn't going to change anything. Do you really think that god is going to change his divine plan just for you?

 

[snex]

Difference between God's wiping out of the nation of Amalek and Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews:

Jews - Regular group of people who like to sell crappy electronics in New York.

Amalakites - Barbaric group of heathens who liked to sacrifice their children to false gods by burning them alive, have gay sex orgies, **** dogs and goats, and declared war against the Israelites who had already been publicly chosen as God's group of people.

One thing you can be sure of, God doesn't do anything unless he has a **** good reason for it.

how do you know the amalakites did those things? oh right, because a book written by the people that slaughtered them said so. what a perfectly objective and unbiased source.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Here's another problem I've had with typical christian dogma:

Christian doctrine says that god has a plan. A divine plan. God made this plan a long time ago and is sticking to it. After all, it wouldn't be a very divine plan if he had to change it, yes? Certainly there can't be any room for improvement in a divine plan.

But now we switch to prayer. Christian doctrine says that you can pray to god to ask him for things, and if you're really good he might just give it to you. People ask for things all the time! They want their cancer cured, a better job, food on the table, a stable relationship, etc...

And when god doesn't answer someone's prayer, they are told "It's all part of god's plan".

Well, then what was the point of praying to begin with?! What you're praying for is either in god's plan or it's not, asking the big guy about it isn't going to change anything. Do you really think that god is going to change his divine plan just for you?

The concept of prayer, as it appears to me, is that god may have intended a person to pray and have their prayer answered. According to Christianity, everything we do has been predetermined, including all of our causes and effects.

how do you know the amalakites did those things? oh right, because a book written by the people that slaughtered them said so. what a perfectly objective and unbiased source.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Statements are made in these forums blindly based on a single biased scripture. This thread is meant to point out real-world contradictions in the teachings and practices of Christianity and all the people trying to defend the religion are only giving quotes and the same religious blather that was being questioned.

 

[cF=)]

The concept of prayer, as it appears to me, is that god may have intended a person to pray and have their prayer answered. According to Christianity, everything we do has been predetermined, including all of our causes and effects.

Sounds like god made me an atheist since he knew I had no reason to pray

 

[Deleted member]

It's too bad there aren't any Muslims in the debate hall, or if there are, they don't post too much. I'm sick of defending Christianity. I oh-so want to take a crack at the religion that really has the most problems - Islam.

 

[cman]

where can you cite that the everything in the bible is exaggerated? enlighten me. I grant you, that some parts of the bible are just a lot of flowery language, metaphors, and exaggerations, but not everything in there is meant to be looked at in that way. If you can give me some evidence I'd like to see that.

Why should i have to cite anything? You are the one defending outrageous claims like everyone in the world was SO bad that they were beyond saving by an all powerful god (hmm?), so he had to drown the entire world except for one family and some animals. Think about it for a second... does that really make sense?

-

Tim, that is the point everyone has been trying to make.

 

[riboflavinbob]

Well that's why you can't look at faith from a logical standpoint.

 

[blazedaces]

Well that's why you can't look at faith from a logical standpoint.

So everything in the world we can look at from a logical standpoint... except some arbitrary concept called faith? What in the world makes faith special?

See, this is what really grinds my gears. Faith is the only thing free of criticism for some reason. It's the only thing no one is allowed to touch. God forbid people want to discuss religion? Nope, it's considered rude. We have actually, as a society, put forth the idea that we should believe something... for the sake of believing in something.

Think about it...

-blazed

 

[Quicksand]

The 'Bad Guys' actions are always exaggerated. Just like the Japanese and German soldiers, were the sub-human epitome of evil deserving of the worst of totures, etc..., in the propaganda posters during world war 2, just about everything in the bible was probably greatly exaggerted.

Good thing that numerous third-party archaeological accounts back up exactly how heinous these people were.

Also take a look at the Canaanites: http://www.theology.edu/canaan.htm

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

I have a little question here. I don't think it's been posted yet, and it's a good one, so here it goes:

If all humans are punished for the sin of two (Adam and eve), why aren't all of the angels punished for Lucifer's sin?

Fallacy? I think so.

 

[snex]

Good thing that numerous third-party archaeological accounts back up exactly how heinous these people were.

Also take a look at the Canaanites: http://www.theology.edu/canaan.htm

i dont suppose you can actually be bothered to GIVE US these alleged third-party archaeological accounts, can you? no, of course not. you just assert they exist and pretend that you win.

sorry, this is the DEBATE hall, not the quicksand-gets-to-make-free-claims hall. back up your assertions or begone.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I have a little question here. I don't think it's been posted yet, and it's a good one, so here it goes:

If all humans are punished for the sin of two (Adam and eve), why aren't all of the angels punished for Lucifer's sin?

Fallacy? I think so.

The angels who fought with Lucifer were cast out of heaven as fallen angels into Pandemonium.

Also, your avatar looks suspiciously like Lucifer... coincidence?

 

[Quicksand]

i dont suppose you can actually be bothered to GIVE US these alleged third-party archaeological accounts, can you? no, of course not. you just assert they exist and pretend that you win.

sorry, this is the DEBATE hall, not the quicksand-gets-to-make-free-claims hall. back up your assertions or begone.

lol wut?

The fact that the Amalakites, Canaanites, and similar tribes were despicable people isn't some hidden secret.

Here's a good list of books starting you off on the culture of the Canaanites and their descendants written by archaeologists and historians:

http://www.lib.washington.edu/neareast/canaan/h&ccanaan.html

 

[blazedaces]

lol wut?

The fact that the Amalakites, Canaanites, and similar tribes were despicable people isn't some hidden secret.

Here's a good list of books starting you off on the culture of the Canaanites and their descendants written by archaeologists and historians:

http://www.lib.washington.edu/neareast/canaan/h&ccanaan.html

Please provide sources we can actually read online. Books are good if you can access them, but for us in this debate hall, we're not going to go reading that long list of books. If this subject is so well known there should be a reputable, unbiased source online explaining these "facts".

-blazed

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

The angels who fought with Lucifer were cast out of heaven as fallen angels into Pandemonium.

Also, your avatar looks suspiciously like Lucifer... coincidence?

Why aren't ALL of the angels punished? All of the humans were punished because of aAdam and Eve's sin, so why aren't all angels punished for Lucifer's sin?

 

[snex]

lol wut?

The fact that the Amalakites, Canaanites, and similar tribes were despicable people isn't some hidden secret.

Here's a good list of books starting you off on the culture of the Canaanites and their descendants written by archaeologists and historians:

http://www.lib.washington.edu/neareast/canaan/h&ccanaan.html

since none of your assertions are actually backed up by your link, i could just as easily claim that those books support the position that the canaanites were all friendly and lovable.

back up your position, we arent doing your homework for you.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Why aren't ALL of the angels punished? All of the humans were punished because of aAdam and Eve's sin, so why aren't all angels punished for Lucifer's sin?

Because the other angels don't derive from Lucifer.

All humans are the children of Adam and Eve and are therefore part of their sin.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

That's speciesism right there, then.