Falco, the best character in the game on stage?

[Blistering Speed]

My friend put this idea to me and at first I was skeptical, but now I'm reconsidering. Thoughts?

*Edit* It just appears to me that Falco's main weakness is his recovery, which granted is a large inherent flaw. However on stage, Falco has laser control at middle and larger lengths between characters and at close range he's rivalled by only Fox, Marth, Sheik and possibly Peach, with the only character truly besting him there being Marth. Of course he's also easily comboed but that's a double edged sword because usually he can combo said character just as well or better. Maybe Falco's should just laser camp in the middle of the stage and only go anywhere near the edge if the risk to reward ratio is greatly in their favour.Here endeth the half baked Falco hypothesis

 

[puckgood]

I think Foz might get that honor, and Marth (while seemingly specializing in offstage work) can get you OFF the stage very easy (Ken combo anyone?) and then use his expertise *cough*gayness*cough* to kill you. So... I dunno. He IS very good on stage, though.

 

[victra♥]

Falco has huge control on stage. It's not fair. =(

 

[Binx]

Falco is the best character on stage.

Fox is very fast but he has to get through Falco's tricks first.

People are getting a lot better at lasering in tricky ways, and even if someone is good at powershielding it means they have to spend time shielding when you might not laser.

Marth has a huge range of control around him, but Falco actively threatens you from anywhere on the level.

 

[Stev]

what about platforms? Marth's sword ***** platforms (which are part of the stage), not to mention he can run under the lasers... But that is why Marth is the only character to actually best falco and really the ability to avoid lasers only applies to falco. Platforms are in every level except FD, so I think they should play a major influence on who has best stage control

 

[Miggz]

He may be hot on stage...but I know who isn't the best OFF stage. Just kidding. =P

 

[KevinM]

I would rank Fox as better on the stage imo.

 

[Binx]

Falco wrecks people on platforms, shine waveland from behind where they can't grab? amazingly high jump. Also on most levels he could go to the opposite platform and laser you until you get down, if your on top he can full jump double laser still.

Fox is a close second, and definitely better at killing people from the middle of the stage w/o edgeguarding, but he doesn't have the same kind of control.

 

[Teczer0]

I would rank Fox as better on the stage imo.

This is my opinion as well

 

[Binx]

Why though? just curious, cause he's slightly faster? cause he has a better approach? cause he camps better?

 

[Teczer0]

Why though? just curious, cause he's slightly faster? cause he has a better approach? cause he camps better?

In short ... yea thats why. Generally because fox can do what falco does, but faster and with more consistency.

 

[KevinM]

Laser camping game, Check
Grab Combos on almost every character, Check
Brutal Tech Chase Game on Fastfallers, Check
Homo, Check.

Yeah Fox basically has that one made in the shade.

 

[Blistering Speed]

The only thing I see there that Falco honestly is outclassed by is grab combo's, considering he has nothing guaranteed out of grab, but this is surely compensated by his shine combos and shield pressure (though Fox has these too, I'd say overall Falco's shine combos edge out Fox's except for extreme isolated cases of characters like Link).
Falco's direct camping game beats out any other camper though Fox may be better at camping specific characters (Jiggs?).
Falco's lesser tech chase game is mitigated by the fact his combo's on fastfallers are ridiculous to the extent he can consistently 0 to Death anyway (that's not to say he doesn't have a great tech chase game, it just doesn't beat Fox).

I don't know, you could be right, either way it's close.

 

[Teczer0]

Falco can camp well but he can't maneuver around the stage like fox can. In short falco has to stop camping if someone gets close. He isn't fast enough to just camp and run away, and start camping again.

Fox on the other hand is fast enough that he can.

Fox's shine combos are much more reliable than falco's especially at high percentages.

All of Falco's shine combos can be DIed out of and in general it isn't difficult to do. Falco has to put much more effort into chasing people after his shine that fox does.

Fox only has to waveshine depending on which side he hit people with the shine. On characters that don't fall except climbers and luigi he can upsmash or grab. On characters that do fall, he can tech chase with grab, upsmash whatever.

 

[DippnDots]

I think Roy is the best on stage because he has TEH PHIRE!!11! Did you know his fully charged B is the strongest move in the game?!?!??!!!!11!!one!


Is surprised no one has mentioned Puff in this thread.

 

[bolt.]

I would say Sheik is better. Sheik specializes in onstage play and has epic juggling skills. Fast too. Oh and has a good projectile.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

you all miss the point

fox >> all.

 

[Teczer0]

you all miss the point

fox >> all.

Ness >>>> fox

So Ness >>>> melee?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco can camp well but he can't maneuver around the stage like fox can. In short falco has to stop camping if someone gets close. He isn't fast enough to just camp and run away, and start camping again.

Fox on the other hand is fast enough that he can.

Yes, Fox is faster, but I think you're ignoring the fact that Falco's camping actually physically slows down an opponent through shield and hitstun. Maybe Fox can run away for longer, but it takes a lot longer Falco to need to run away. Falco's mobility also isn't as bad as you seem to state (though comparatively with Fox I suppose it is).

Fox's shine combos are much more reliable than falco's especially at high percentages.

True, but I would put it to you that Falco's shine combo's consistently do more damage at the lower percentages barring said isolated cases.

All of Falco's shine combos can be DIed out of and in general it isn't difficult to do. Falco has to put much more effort into chasing people after his shine that fox does.

Fox only has to waveshine depending on which side he hit people with the shine. On characters that don't fall except climbers and luigi he can upsmash or grab. On characters that do fall, he can tech chase with grab, upsmash whatever.

I think you're truly underrating Falco here. We'll assume that Fox will get the U Throw U Air (I won't equate SDI seeing as virtually no one can consistently do it), but in that same instance Falco can and will follow the DI. I won't deny that Falco's combos from shine are much less 'set in stone' then Fox's, but in that same token you could claim Captain Falcon's combos aren't either. Improvisation is doubtless a requirement but it doesn't lessen the theoretical punishment.

 

[Teczer0]

I'm not really trying to underrate falco really.

I think he is one of the best characters. But I just don't think he compares to fox thats all.

Falco's lasers can slow the opponent down yea but I mean there are way around it. Falco's lasers are most effective when it forces your opponent to shield at a bad spot. Not to slow down people running.

Tbh they are both very good at it. Camping wise though I think fox's are made to camp while falco's is made to force someone to do something dumb (just my opinion though not really trying to say its a fact or anything(.

Falco's shine does more damage only to fast fallers really. Fox, falco, CF (maybe a few more I'm not thinking of) are the only real people who can be given massive damage by falco through shine combos.

On characters like peach or samus its pretty difficult to combo them from shine sometimes, (except like shine -> immediate bair).

Fox's though are fairly simple. Nair grab upthrow upair, shine upsmash, shine grab, you know... typical things. These work on generally any character with a very few exceptions and can be applied at higher percentages.

In general more consistent, it can be applied to a much wider range of characters.

 

[Blistering Speed]

That's perfectly understandable. Either way I think we can agree they're relatively close, we could go round in circles all day comparing different aspects. Plus, I think Falco's damage output from shine is just too variable and up in the air (no pun intended) to be drawing direct comparisons to Fox's guaranteed gayness. I wasn't really setting out to defend the point in the first place, just to see others opinions on it. Thanks ^_^

 

[Binx]

Fox U throw Up Air is what 20-25%? Falco can shine drill any character at most percents, at the percents he can't he can immediately shine bair to get a fast edgeguard or instant kill, Fox has way more reliable gimps, and a really good control game once you start getting in hits, and vs Falco it's a fairly even match up at high levels of play, so I'm not trying to pretend Falco is as good as Fox all around, it's close but I don't believe it for a second, I just think that on stage you can't beat Falco's control.

I will go ahead and admit that Fox camps better, but camping isn't controlling space, even though it is controlling the tone of the match. Oh and Fox vs Falco you tell me who has to approach who.

 

[SwiftBass]

hi ther.


falco, can be the best on stage at times, but his demand on technical precision are too great for most I believe. I have a great deal of respect for the falco mains that win/place well at tourneys going all falco, because as a heavy falco player myself, I am already realizing the amount of consistency in technical prowess that is needed to play him for a whole tourney against good opponents. NOTE that when I say technical prowess i am not talking about hitting all the L-cancels and stuff, cuz that should be a given, but more specific things, like hitting an oppoennts shield with the right timing and knowing where to shuffle on an opponents shield(and naturally how to follow up with something accordingly, as in SHINING is not always the best choice after a shuffle on the shield)


theoretically to me he is the best on stage.


One thing I haven't heard about lazers is the ability to read an opponents attempt to jump over the SHL.(falco going into a full hop double lazer or some other various anti -air lazer). I think anti -air lazers are the kinds that separate the good lazering from bad lazering.

 

[Binx]

Obviously when someone asks which *character* is best on stage you need to assume the person knows how to do everything they could do realistically.

When I say Falco is the best on stage I'm saying DSW's Falco.

 

[Mogwai]

Falco is the best on stage. He's like fox but better. then either you get your opponent off stage, or they get you off stage, and suddenly you go from top tier to like, low mid tier and that makes Falco a sad panda :'(

 

[puckgood]

I dunno, Falco can do some pretty sexy stuff off of stage. His lasers are annoying as **** off of the ledge, and Fox doesn't actually have that much over him off stage. The shine, of course, is uber, but that's mainly for gimps, and most places where Fox can SS, Falco can dair. Falco has bair from the ledge, shine-dair-recover, and other stuff. WAY behind Marth off of the edge (but so is everyone), as well as Fox and Peach, but his off the edge game is still at least bottom of high, top of middle. Might even be middle of high. Don't underestimate a bird who can talk, man. ESPECIALLY one with a sexy, gangsta gun.

 

[KevinM]

Fox just has better options for rush downs, camping, and controlling space (note not the same thing) I'm not trying to underrate falco as he is still REALLY good on the stage, but Fox just does it all better.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

If Falco had Fox distance recovery, his off stage game would rocket because now he can off stage laser, bair, nair, dair, shine combo, and still make it back. If he had that, he'd be the best on tied with Fox, and one of the best because of his now super dair gimps.

 

[Binx]

I'm just going to have to disagree Kevin, I think Fox is better because when he gets someone off the stage its over, and its close on the stage, but I think Falco is ever so slightly better on stage.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm not really trying to underrate falco really.

I think he is one of the best characters. But I just don't think he compares to fox thats all.

Falco's lasers can slow the opponent down yea but I mean there are way around it. Falco's lasers are most effective when it forces your opponent to shield at a bad spot. Not to slow down people running.

Tbh they are both very good at it. Camping wise though I think fox's are made to camp while falco's is made to force someone to do something dumb (just my opinion though not really trying to say its a fact or anything(.

Falco's shine does more damage only to fast fallers really. Fox, falco, CF (maybe a few more I'm not thinking of) are the only real people who can be given massive damage by falco through shine combos.

On characters like peach or samus its pretty difficult to combo them from shine sometimes, (except like shine -> immediate bair).

Fox's though are fairly simple. Nair grab upthrow upair, shine upsmash, shine grab, you know... typical things. These work on generally any character with a very few exceptions and can be applied at higher percentages.

In general more consistent, it can be applied to a much wider range of characters.

Your sig is funny. Sorry to go off topic.

For me, Falco is just not as fluid or natural as Fox. And yeah, Fox is a more consistent character than Falco, not just because he has more options out of shine either. Then again, I'm probably just not used to the Falco movement patterns yet. I play him offhandedly.

 

[Mogwai]

Fox just has better options for rush downs, camping, and controlling space (note not the same thing) I'm not trying to underrate falco as he is still REALLY good on the stage, but Fox just does it all better.

different and better are not the same thing...

I'll give you rush downs cause I'd be stupid not to.

Falco's camp game is on par with Fox's. It would just be better, but it's more susceptible to powershielding, so I'd call them even at the high level besides like, on Pokefloats.

Controlling space, Falco is god when he is above you, Fox doesn't have nearly the same sort of control over your options when he's on a platform above you. He also doesn't control space through lasers, just gets damage out of them. Sure, his nair and DD camping **** can control options better than Falco's respective options in likewise situations, but, meh, they're too different in the way they go about it to say that one is strictly better than the other.