Falchion's Chosen - Marth Discussion Thread

[himemiya]

melee side-b is a more reliable at killing though.

 

[DJ _ICE]

I was thinking, since the first hit of dancing blade is used to link to up tilt at high percentages to kill, wouldn't it also lead into Marth getting a grab or a tippered Dolphin slash? Both of those could help Marth's game on high level opponents a lot

 

[Amazerommu]

I was thinking, since the first hit of dancing blade is used to link to up tilt at high percentages to kill, wouldn't it also lead into Marth getting a grab or a tippered Dolphin slash? Both of those could help Marth's game on high level opponents a lot

I actually already use it for both of those quite frequently.

 

[Xinc]

Got a question on Marth's Dancing Blade. The fourth up hit looks the same as the fourth side swing (as compared to brawl where Marth has an upward slash). Is there any difference in knockback between the DB 4^ and DB 4> in PM?

 

[Amazerommu]

Got a question on Marth's Dancing Blade. The fourth up hit looks the same as the fourth side swing (as compared to brawl where Marth has an upward slash). Is there any difference in knockback between the DB 4^ and DB 4> in PM?

4th Up sends upward. 4th Side sends at an angle closer to 90 degrees. Unless of course DI and such.

 

[Xinc]

4th Up sends upward. 4th Side sends at an angle closer to 90 degrees. Unless of course DI and such.

So the 4th Up just looks aesthetically similar to 4th side. Thanks.

 

[Amazerommu]

So the 4th Up just looks aesthetically similar to 4th side. Thanks.

Ya and by 90 degrees I actually meant 45 for the 4th side hit lol. Sorry about that. Idiot mode was activated for that brief period.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Well assuming the frame data hasn't been altered from melee, 4th up hits on frames 20-25 while 4th neutral hits on frames 23-26

 

[Amazerommu]

Well assuming the frame data hasn't been altered from melee, 4th up hits on frames 20-25 while 4th neutral hits on frames 23-26

I believe that may have changed... as Dancing Blade was altered to function at a speed between Melee and Brawl so that it links better.

 

[DJ _ICE]

That so? It would be nice if we had a sticky for the hitbox and frame data for the things changed in P:M

 

[Amazerommu]

That so? It would be nice if we had a sticky for the hitbox and frame data for the things changed in P:M

I would like this as well. Maybe that would help me figure out why I trade or DON'T get so many hits that I feel like I should be getting. (Tipper ranged F-smash gets thwarted by randomness sometimes and I'm like... "wat?")

 

[DJ _ICE]

Shouldn't this thread itself be stickied too?

 

[RAVENx08]

is it me or does marth feel like his Standing A has no hit stun when landed. ive tried to jab reset characters after i hit they end up grabbing me idk if its just me if im doing something wrong or what.

 

[CyberZixx]

Do you get the tip of the Jab? I only use Marth's jab as either a reset as you said from either a missed tech or sometimes a reset in combos or to jab at them in an attempt to get them to do something in the corner.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I like using them to swat projectiles. Retreating fair is better in pressure situations, but camping Marios and Ivies can be dealt with with smart jabs.

 

[RAVENx08]

Do you get the tip of the Jab? I only use Marth's jab as either a reset as you said from either a missed tech or sometimes a reset in combos or to jab at them in an attempt to get them to do something in the corner.

i use jab resets to punish missed techs and during combos but i seem to get either grabbed or set into neutral position when the opponent collides with me

 

[NoLife]

i only use side b for a jab reset, much better in my opinion, i use the jab for when they r just above the ledge, if it connects it will send them just below the edge and when that happens they always panic and press up b (or jump if they have it) making for an easy fsmash edgeguard

 

[KingDozie]

I feel that we should use more side b in general.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Jab is faster as reset so if you stand still it is probably better, you want to prevent them from getting up... however, after throws you are probably dashing and side-b reset is the better option here.

About side-b use in general, here is my opinion:
- Dont really count on side-b in your game plan, it mostly shows you messed up your spacing.
- Obviously side-b to float more when recover
- Side-b reset as mentioned above
- I use jump-> reverse side-b OoS when facing away. It is quite good.
- Your opponent is directly next to you in the air... side-b is your fastest attack (you could counter also if you expect him to hit earlier)
- In rare cases, side-b is useful as edgeguarding tool
- Side-b to retreating fair, up-air or up-tilt as general follow-ups

 

[NoLife]

i would a agree with that thats about all the reasons i use side b for

 

[ep1c_marf]

Hey guys just a quick question is marths range and kill power still the same as it was in pm?

 

[DJ _ICE]

Hey guys just a quick question is marths range and kill power still the same as it was in pm?

Exactly the same.

 

[NameChange]

Does anyone know if lag greatly affects your Marth? Whenever I play wifi I seem to lose with Marth more often than offline

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Lag greatly affects everyone.

But does it more severely affect a character who depends on immaculate spacing and precise reactions to function?

You tell me.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lag greatly affects everyone.

But does it more severely affect a character who depends on immaculate spacing and precise reactions to function?

You tell me.

Do you want someone by your side with an axe to offset your weapon's weakness to lances?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Do you want someone by your side with an axe to offset your weapon's weakness to lances?

But your only options are hammers, and they're level D :-/

 

[NoLife]

well the fire emblem reference aside i prefer no lag (as most) but depend on how technical ur character is whether lag draws the line or not...fox or falco....not a chance....but like bowser go for it just remember the more offensive person wins in lag...lets say they preform a move...u hav ur reaction time + ur lag so the person who attacks first usually can land their hit cause the other person cant input a action in time

 

[WINK ;)]

How do I kill with the reverse up B? Do I have to be slightly below them? or what?

 

[NoLife]

they have to be right next to u...u almost have to b touching them

 

[NameChange]

Hey guys, I need some advice.
What should I do and shouldn't do with Marth in Melee/PM?

 

[NoLife]

Hey guys, I need some advice.
What should I do and shouldn't do with Marth in Melee/PM?

u should make the guy at the end of the match say AND THE WINNER IS.....MARTH and u should not get hit

 

[CyberZixx]

they have to be right next to u...u almost have to b touching them

I actually find it easiest to land reverse up b from like 1/3 a jab distance.

 

[NoLife]

I actually find it easiest to land reverse up b from like 1/3 a jab distance.

agreed....its pretty easy to land u just hav to learn the hitboxes once they get like 2/3 the jab distance u can Not reverse it and still the the tip

 

[Plebeian]

So umh I've been playing Project M for a while now... having been used to melee I thought Marth handles pretty odd in this game. Some initial strange quirks I have:

1. His sword "swoosh swoosh" sound is very unsatisfying in Brawl/Project M and also lacks a specific sound when sweetspotting, is there a way to maybe change this? lol

2. Is his hitboxes changed in this game? I know for a fact that in Melee you can shorthop uair the top platform on Yoshi's Story but it seems a lot harder in this game... its kinda annoying, I think uair overall is pretty odd in this game

With that being said, you don't really need to answer those questions because they're not that important, this is not melee after all. But what I was going to ask and hopefully receive some pretty nifty answers for is how do I approach with Marth without being compeltely predictable? I was always bad with approach but it's even worse for me in this game (dunno why). I understand fair spam isnt the best thing but I try to mix things up, but whatever I do my opponents always seem to hit me

 

[UMR | donmk]

So umh I've been playing Project M for a while now... having been used to melee I thought Marth handles pretty odd in this game. Some initial strange quirks I have:

1. His sword "swoosh swoosh" sound is very unsatisfying in Brawl/Project M and also lacks a specific sound when sweetspotting, is there a way to maybe change this? lol

2. Is his hitboxes changed in this game? I know for a fact that in Melee you can shorthop uair the top platform on Yoshi's Story but it seems a lot harder in this game... its kinda annoying, I think uair overall is pretty odd in this game

With that being said, you don't really need to answer those questions because they're not that important, this is not melee after all. But what I was going to ask and hopefully receive some pretty nifty answers for is how do I approach with Marth without being compeltely predictable? I was always bad with approach but it's even worse for me in this game (dunno why). I understand fair spam isnt the best thing but I try to mix things up, but whatever I do my opponents always seem to hit me

1. There are mods that change the sword sound. The one I use can be found here.

2. I'm pretty sure the hitboxes are the same, but I agree that there is something odd about uair. Maybe its just a visual thing that is deceiving me, because the PMBR say that most of Marth has been imported perfectly.

As for the approaching, that's something you generally shouldn't do with Marth. Marth loves to bait his opponents with complex dash dance and wave dashes, and when they toss out a move at you, you can punish their end-lag. This generally requires to you are able to pivot. That being said, if you really want to approach you have a few options.

1. Dash towards them into crouch cancel. Generally only works at low percents, but you can eat a hit and get a hit in. Just make sure that your hit leads to a combo, because Marth generally can't trade hits in this game and win.

2. Jump cancelled grabs and pivot grabs have absurd range on them, and if you connect you can eat a hit.

3. Cactus Dashing. This is where you use your wavedash to alter the momentum of your dash. The best example is to dash away from your opponent, wavedash towards them and then dash dance by moving away from the opponent first.

There are many other approaches but these are a few that are interesting. There's this document that details a lot of other Marth things: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8. Just bear in mind that it is written from a melee perspective, and while a lot of things carry over, there are many characters that this wont work for. These are generally those that outrange Marth (Dedede, Ike) and those that out maneuver Marth (Squirtle). There are other characters where often approaching is tantamount to just killing yourself, so you just dash dance bait (see e.g. Shiek).

Just remember that in Project M, many characters have more range than Marth, but there is not many (if any) that have his combination of range, wavedash length and dash dance length. Use these in combination to your advantage.

 

[Plebeian]

1. There are mods that change the sword sound. The one I use can be found here.

2. I'm pretty sure the hitboxes are the same, but I agree that there is something odd about uair. Maybe its just a visual thing that is deceiving me, because the PMBR say that most of Marth has been imported perfectly.

As for the approaching, that's something you generally shouldn't do with Marth. Marth loves to bait his opponents with complex dash dance and wave dashes, and when they toss out a move at you, you can punish their end-lag. This generally requires to you are able to pivot. That being said, if you really want to approach you have a few options.

1. Dash towards them into crouch cancel. Generally only works at low percents, but you can eat a hit and get a hit in. Just make sure that your hit leads to a combo, because Marth generally can't trade hits in this game and win.

2. Jump cancelled grabs and pivot grabs have absurd range on them, and if you connect you can eat a hit.

3. Cactus Dashing. This is where you use your wavedash to alter the momentum of your dash. The best example is to dash away from your opponent, wavedash towards them and then dash dance by moving away from the opponent first.

There are many other approaches but these are a few that are interesting. There's this document that details a lot of other Marth things: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8. Just bear in mind that it is written from a melee perspective, and while a lot of things carry over, there are many characters that this wont work for. These are generally those that outrange Marth (Dedede, Ike) and those that out maneuver Marth (Squirtle). There are other characters where often approaching is tantamount to just killing yourself, so you just dash dance bait (see e.g. Shiek).

Just remember that in Project M, many characters have more range than Marth, but there is not many (if any) that have his combination of range, wavedash length and dash dance length. Use these in combination to your advantage.

Good stuff, thanks! Never seen that google document before.

 

[burntfish44]

Im gonna second the "can we pls get a pm marth frame data thread going and stickied?"

Id do it myself but can't cuz dont have have dolphin or the know-how

 

[UMR | donmk]

Im gonna second the "can we pls get a pm marth frame data thread going and stickied?"

Id do it myself but can't cuz dont have have dolphin or the know-how

I remember an old Reddit thread that told you how to do this using brawlbox. There's a link here.

I remember that I tried to do this once, but could only get hurtboxes to display. Maybe you'll have better luck.

EDIT: So I just gave it another shot and it worked. Here's some Uair gifs:
Marth U-Air Full speed

Spoiler

Marth U-Air 1/3 speed

Spoiler

Marth Melee Uair also at 1/3 speed (taken from the frame database on the Melee Boards)

Spoiler

And some stats:
Project M (taken from Brawl Box)
Duration: 46 Frames
Active Hitbox frames: 5-8

Melee (Taken from the thread on the Melee Boards)
Duration: 45 Frames
Active Hitbox frames: 5-8

I think the one frame difference in duration is due to Brawl including the first frame of the return to neutral position in the attack, whereas Melee does not. In essence, this means that for both, the 46th frame after the move is initiated is neutral falling position. However, since this frame is included as part of the move in PM, I wonder if it means you can't act on the 46th frame in PM, whereas you can in Melee.

IF I can read BrawlBox data (and that's a pretty big if), then the auto-cancel begins at frame 27 (same as melee) and you can act out of it (IASA frames?) at frame 44. This would remove the issue of the extra frame preventing action, but I can't guarantee that that is what the variables mean. The way I read it, the bit that sets auto-cancel is toggled on frame 26, so you can start auto-cancelling on frame 27. Similarly, the interrupt flag is set on frame 43, so you can start to interrupt on frame 44.

So this one move took me literally an hour. I'm sure that now I know the procedure I can do it faster, but still I wont be making a hitbox thread within the next two weeks due to a quite hefty real life workload. When I'm done with my real life commitments I'll create a thread if there is still a need for one.

 

[burntfish44]

Huh that's pretty cool, i might try to look into it, depending on how laggy PM is on my laptop

 

[Plebeian]

I feel it's really hard to apply pressure to opponents or just simply poking them

spacing overall is really hard tbh, it feels like whatever I do my opponent just gets far too close or I don't know what to do against some attacks like Roy's F-til or Dedede's F-tilt

as for poking... I heard dtilt is the best poke. But as I'm dash dancing it's annoyingly how easy it is to make a dash attack instead of just dtilting