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Evaluate my snake!

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
Since snake is my main and I'm seriously taking this game up, i'd like your opinions on how my game play is so far and what I need to work on, opinionated stuff, ect. I know this is the best community to ask questions and see how my snake rates. anyways thanks guys some constructive criticism would be appreciated!.


i'll have more up soon (Maybe today. . so keep posted!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjylKzLN2-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_X1yD6GeoY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qbc3OPE_j4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUKxTeWM9Zo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07vM2_mXwNg

*New*3/27

CPU lvl 9--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLefQfl_Kjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GGZ5BTdd7M

Vs. Ike(Fury)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEm4xid3VvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nizq5UE5Y-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQVltJm_rDM
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
1,538
Location
Fullerton, CA
NNID
Bambatta
First off, you need to use snakes tilts waaaaay more, they do amazing damage amazing knockback and they have very high priority. i noticed u were trying snakes standard a combo alot when in actuality u couldve just done f-tilt and beat out mario attacking attempts. decent use of grenades. id say try 2 drop them more, gives u way more mobility, and u can go ahead and do something while theyre cooking like grenade dropping then u can throw them when theyre just right. u should probably edgeguard with bair. as well as use his sh nair. remember to plant mines man!!!1 they are pivotal in snakes gameplay, its what pressure the opposition and gives u control of the playing field. the standard a is good at times but tilts all the way. snakes tilts are amazing. 2 me at least a good snake has got 2 space at times and rushdown when need be. Snake has alot of tools man and you've got to use them all if u want to step up your snake game.
 

B.A.M.

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
1,538
Location
Fullerton, CA
NNID
Bambatta
also sometimes what i do if im coming down from the air and my opponent is waiting beneath is either a down b and detonate it quickly, a missle cancel as soon as its released or nade is good 2. just a basic thing if theyre at a low percentage and they whiff an attack, an up throw to a up-tilt is always good for me or on higher percentages just jump or cypher up and uair them outta there.
 

Jeff Highwind

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
762
Despite winning all those matches, you actually have a fairly predictible attack pattern: AAA at CQC, Grenade Roll to get space, Nikita when far or to KO at range, *Try* to Fair or Uair for the KO. You also seem to rely on the nikita a fair bit when they try to get close, and while it may have scored you a stock or two it does leave you vulnerable against faster opponents.

What really shocked me was your lack of Tilts. The only A moves I saw you do frequently was AAA, Fair, and USmash. Ftilt has much better KO power than the AAA and the knee also locks them in place for the two-handed club. Utilt has a shockingly big attack box and can allow you to pop them up, cypher and finish them with a Uair or Bair. Dtilt can do the same as Utilt, but you are trading off range for projectile saftey.

Overall, it seems your strategy seems to work well because it's only against what looked like the same player and slower opponents. Try to mix it up a bit, your strategies seem to revolve around the pattern I pointed out above.
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
thanks much appreciated, I'm realizing I can do more stuff coming down now. . . yeah thats for that I wouldn't have guessed missile cancel from the freefall, hahha I guess i'll try that out today

Yeah the patern is getting to me, some of my friends have already figured it out and act accordingly to beat me, I do the AAA mostly out of reflex and yeah I need to switch it up with the ftilt, thanks for the input guys, i'm learning much from this
 

Depressed Man

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
127
I would agree with the using mines statement but it seems Mario's fireball would just set it off. But if you have nothing better to do after you KO someone, go ahead and place a mine down.
 

Jeff Highwind

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
762
Oh yea forgot to mention: C4 More. Even if it's just to limit their movement, it doesnt get destroyed by someone breathing on it wrong.
 

Depressed Man

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
127
If possible try to do cromsliding without the hit. I've found that once people catch on to it that they'll just try to dodge it or grab you (hard for them to grab you but it's possible). So doing it without the hit tends to throw them off.
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
yeah I'm gonna hit vs. right now, gonna try out some of the new tactics and moves. I'll try and record once I get the hang of it and i'll post them up by later today hopefully!
 

abit_rusty

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
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Location
East Lansing, MI
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Rontuaru
3DS FC
2895-8974-0662
I will echo what has been mentioned that variety is the key to success with Snake. Not only do you need to incorporate the use of other moves like the coveted ftilt, but you need to limit using your other moves so ..."recklessly". By that, I mean you still have to learn the right time to use certain moves/tricks, because spamming them leaves you predictable, and using them at the wrong time can leave you vulnerable or waste your effort.

One example, Jeff mentioned, is close range Nikita tactics. I'm not saying this isn't viable, but using this often is not without reprocussions. Make sure if you do so, you are ready to cancel the missile early else leave yourself for attack (1:01 on the 2nd match, a good DK would have added insult to injury (aka headbutt into that giant punch he landed), not a nice result on your end). Also, I wouldn't waste Nikitas so early and often, because of the damage depreciation that weakens consecutive uses. You could have instead saved the power for an killing edgeguard at higher %'s, or setting up for one, instead of racking up early damage.

A note on your constant shield-dropped nade rolling. Once or twice perhaps is alright to give you some breathing room, but to basically traverse the whole level by shield dropping nades will not help you contend with more advanced players. The Mario could have easily blown up your nades and spammed fireballs, and caped any you tossed at him. A non-projectile character can just catch you when you roll by predicting where you go since you don't leave any insurance to protect you once you get out of your protective shell of nades. Speedy characters can just bypass the nade rolls and pummel you hit-and-run style. You weren't doing anything horrible, except making it much easier for the opponent to read your movements. Again, mix it up, try some dash-attack-grabbed nades into shield, or cooking nades long enough so that when you toss them they explode on impact.

The use of mines and C4 are pretty situational. With more experience, this should come by nature to you to realize smart places to plant them, and learning when to use them (C4 can be almost anytime the opponent hesitates, mines however need additional time which could mean having to knock your foe away for a bit), how to lure opponents to that place, or using them to limit movement. Also, there is no more satisfying feeling, (some could disagree, I think there's a couple of people here who love landing a predicted fsmash lol), than a stuck C4 detonating your opponent in midair. A kill and the look on your foe's face to go along with it is just priceless.

To conclude, here's a few tips:
-Yea yea, definitely use his tilts :laugh:

-Try to practice more of Snake's aerial game. All of his aerials, when used wisely, with Fair being used sparingly, are all too good to ignore.

-Try mortar edgeguarding once in a while. It helps nail opponents who try to recover below the stage, and you won't believe how many people hesitate in their minds as they recover when they see you charge a full upsmash and spam a few more after it. An added bonus is when they do get on the ledge, think they're safe, and the mortar rains down on them unexpectedly. If anything, it gives them a harder time trying to get back onto the stage, sometimes allowing you to predict their path of recovery.

-Don't make your approaches so obvious. I noticed that you just start running from afar and I could already see the dash attack coming. Lo-and-behold, there it was :p. Mixing up your approaches, i.e. shielding/dodging/grabbing instead of always attacking will work wonders for your game.

Anyway, good luck and keep practicin :chuckle:

...and sorry for the wall of text >.>
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
thanks for the wall of text, i'm gonna try to be a little more spontaneous in my approaches and attack patters. I'm already starting to rely on the nikita a little less now and mixing up my nades a bit more. I'll be taping later on so I'll try to bring a more improved game next time around
 

Cho?

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
87
Location
Atlanta, GA
im in the same boat as you race. tilts, aerials, and mixing up my approaches are something any progressing snake needs to do more. keep the practice up and relish the fact that you actually have a wii and brawl =D
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
thanks guys will do! thanks for the encouragement.

I was playing my ike/lucario friend last night (Guy who beats me half of the time) and my ZSS friend (The guy who figured out my pattern and keeps beating me) And I got most of the wins last night against them both. I used some of the advice you guys gave me, the ftilt and utilt worked especially well, I got quite a good amount of damage and kills that way. Also I used his bair to intercept more now, it works great though I still need to polish it up. I'm using my grenade roll and combo pattern (Which is now mostly ftilt instead of AAA) more sparingly and mixing different attacks with my mid range game. Also i'm not making obvious dash A attack runs as I used to before, i'm mixing dashes with grabs (Which works surprisingly well) and dodges or shields. Also I used my c4 a lot more and thought up of more situational ways to use them, which I thought limed their ranges and gave me somewhat of a mental advantage where they couldn't advance the way they wanted because the c4 was there. Both of them thought I almost totally changed my play style and complemented me on it, now they are both at home trying to think up new stuff to beat my snake and improve their game, lol.

Anyways thanks for the advice so far, I can already tell my snake play has improved and I really thank you guys for it! i'll post more vids up soon so you guys see what I improved on and what else I need to work on, thanks guys!
 

yoonie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
38
congrats. i think using the c4 (and mortar/nikita/grenade) to limit people's attack choices is one of the greatest advantages of playing snake. all of a sudden they can't use any of their moves that have priority b/c they can only approach from (for example) above you and to the left.
 

rigapeen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
126
i like that grenade -> nikita into grenade strat. i havent seen it, did you make it up?

dont use it so much though.

things you do too much/too little:

you roll too much. know what attacks can hit you in what situations and side stepping is good. roll behind opponent sometimes too instead of away

you dont grab enough or at all. i didnt watch all the matches.

too defensive. nades can be used offensively, throw in the nikita thing once in a while but not all the time

all of snakes tilts are great, use them

upsmash isnt as good on final destination as platform stages

use nair and bair more, dash attack less

c4 isnt as important, you can win without it, put it in your game if you have a use for it

play some better opponents online, you'll learn not to be so predictable
 

chaos_Leader

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
1,035
Location
among the figments of your imagination
everyone who has posted has good points, try more of the grabs especially, If I'm fighting a less experienced opponent I can sometimes do a D-throw and plant C4 on them before they get up or roll away, thats more of a parlor trick than actual strategy. on on other strategy, Mines for edgeguarding: plant it while they're off the stage, It forces your opponent to recover high on very short notice, where you can receive said opponent with any number of kill moves. or if your opponent is particularly dim-witted at the moment, the mine will work just fine.

Thats my 2 cents
 

Jeff Highwind

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Messages
762
I feel kinda out of the loop but wasnt Dthrow > C4 stick while they are still laying down debunked?
 

Squall_Leonhart

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
19
Location
Israel
Watched only the first game, and as everyone already said - use the Ftilt.
You play a very defensive Snake, rolling back and forward alot, which is quite different from my play style, try using more snake's Ftilt, the Nair is very good for approaching too, time it right so the 4th kick would be linked.
Aside from that, I saw that you know how to execute the mortar slide, so try mixing it with a grenade.

Oh and try using alot more his mortar attacks, it's one of his best stuff :)
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
For the grenade--nikita into grenade yeah that was my original set-up. I figured it out after I did it a few times against my friends. and it actually looks a lot harder then it really is. There are many ways to set it up but the easiest way I think is to throw a uncooked mid range nade then a 1/4th cooked mid ranged one, followed by a nikita a little above where the opponent is. So the nades will make him jump to advance to you and the nikita will get them and from that angle will either drop them to the ground or semi spike them to the ground just in time for the 2nd nade to explode. You can do it with just one midrange nade, but having 2 helps with the pressure to jump in on you (Well in my opinion) You can actually get a few kills off this way on lighter characters and it does about 25+ damage if done correctly. There are other set ups for it but let me play a bit more to experiment and get them down yeah? lol

Anyays for the news . . . .I uploaded more tonight.

Against the CPU (Bowser) lvl 9--I recored these to show how i'm trying to incorporate the new attacks into my gameplay. I still use my shielding grenades and mortar slide, but am slowly starting to stay off being predictable, Though you can still see my old pattern somewhat (I still need a bit more practice considering I had only one day to work it out, lol) but I am starting to break from it and becoming more situational. I still use my mid range nikita sometimes due to some fake outs (Which works sometimes) but am slowly starting to use them less. I'm starting to shape off my new style in general. I only have 2 because no one really wants to see you fight the CPU, but added them to show you guys anyways

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLefQfl_Kjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GGZ5BTdd7M

Against my Friend who uses Ike. This was do or die time for me. I recored these last night and even though most of the matches took longer then 3 min, we were able to get some. When I find more memory and a better recorder i'll add more but for now I have these 3. Enjoy guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEm4xid3VvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nizq5UE5Y-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQVltJm_rDM

There you go .. after a lot of advice and a day of practice I get this far! lol. But seriously, some more advice and constructive comments would be cool. What have I improved on? what do I still need a lot of work on? what kind of things would work better with my style? (I'm more defensive, heh) anyways I really appreciate all the input I've had so far, I've gotten better with snake and am more confident in what I need to do. I know I can get a lot better with some work and I thank you guys for helping me out. anyways comment away. .
 

Cho?

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
87
Location
Atlanta, GA
loved the first KO :) in the 1st game and i really like how you're starting to use the nikita cancel more. use more mines for edgeguarding, i feel like at 2:12 a good mine would've kept him from getting back. knee FTW was sexy :)
2nd game was even better! you used mine edgeguarding (darn the invincibility frames when they recover) and your ftilts were nice. your grenade roll really limited your friends movement although im sure someone will bring up the fact that it would get predictable..then again if it works against who you're going against then keep doing it =P
3rd game..wow the last KO was very nice. you kept him wary of the left edge after you planted the mine so he was stuck between you/nades/nikita :) really nice job.
keep it up man! hopefully others will be able to give you better tips/explanations =P im just going off of what i know now (which isn't very much). either way it's awesome to see you improve
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
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So Cal
Yeah thanks, i'm trying to use that mine edgeguard more, that seems to have a lot of potential.
 

Race

Smash Lord
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Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
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So Cal
oh yeah I'm also trying to get usmash to edge guard, but most of the time the mortar ends up going into the stage instead of out . .can anyone help with that? lol
 

rigapeen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
126
pick lylat cruise if you want serious angling of upsmash. otherwise dont count on it for much.
 

rigapeen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
126
regarding your new matches: watched one vs ike

still too much rolling and not enough grabbing.

you roll at times where its clear that ike was punishable attacking wouldnt be punished even if you missed.

learn to move around without rolling. youre faster and have more options. movement shuold be mostly dashing and stopping with shield. youre afraid of ike when hes close but snake is way better than ike close up and on the ground.
 

Depressed Man

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
127
When you KO someone, and are just standing around you could be laying a mine. (I tend to at least drop a mine somewhere depending on my damage). Obviously if it's high, don't do it. And even if they go after it, that benefits you because they'd be wasting invincibility frames.

Noticed in the second Bowser CPU match that you kept getting knocked around when trying to recover. Try throwing a grenade to clear some space (don't have to cook it or anything, just toss one at them and people and CPUs tend to shield, move, etc..).

Edit: Don't forget you can use mortars on the edge to block possible recoveries (forces them to grab the edge).
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
yeah I gotta try to limit the rolls. .they are a big part of my game, but now I see the vulnerability in them. I get punished sometimes for rolling too much and becoming predictable and sometimes miss out on openings cause I have the habit of rolling too much.
lesson learned . . .

in my opinion though ike's close game is actually surprisingly good, his n combo out prioritizes almost everything I can do on the ground maybe except a ftilt which only trades off most of the time. Believe me I thought ike's close game was slow and meaty, but some of his moves and cancels come out surprisingly fast, especially the quick draw cancel. . . it's very deceptive and can do a lot of moves quickly out of it.. So i find myself being defensive and rolling a lot against him when i'm close. I know i'm not that good yet, so maybe his attacks look faster to me then they truly are, lol thats why I need to practice
 

rigapeen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
126
all he can do is AAA. other moves you can shield, side step ,roll ,/grab before it hits you
 

dren

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
5
It seems like you never detonate your C4 unless you detonate it right after dropping/setting it. As I was watching those fights against Ike, Ike kept running across your C4 and I kept thinking "DETONATE" and you never did.

Something else you can try is if you have a C4 on the ground while you're recovering, cypher over the C4 so that your opponent will have to stand on your C4 to be in position to upsmash you. Then detonate them.

Another thing I'd suggest is to cancel a grenade, pick it back up, dash at Ike and shield when you get into his range so that he blows up when he attacks you. Just something to mix up your ground game a little. It seemed like your friend learned he could pick your grenades up. Punish him for that with the grenade stripping technique that was posted in this forum.

I like your use of the nikita and you pull off some nice ftilts. I noticed you like to throw up, then follow with an uptilt. Have you tried cheesing with repeated down throws?
 

Livetopwn247

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
16
Location
Centerport, Long Island NY
Your vs. Ike matches are signifigantly improved over your earlier ones.


A lot of excellent criticism and tips in this thread too.....useful for everyone, not just TC.

I like your Snake, though :)
 

abit_rusty

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
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Location
East Lansing, MI
NNID
Rontuaru
3DS FC
2895-8974-0662
You know the best thing about an Ike matchup is you get so many opportunities to stick him.

So do it! For flashyness and utter demoralization of your opponent!

Haha...but yea, you are improving, keep it up.
 

rigapeen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
126
yeah youve got a good amount of technique down, just get to know the other characters movesets better.
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
thanks guys. Yeah I'm practicing more and will have more progress vids up soon.

I'm gonna join a tourney today. .i'll let you guys know how far I make it by tonight. wish me luck, lol
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
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Location
So Cal
Haha. . didnt get past the first round, lol. I went against a really good rob and that plus the pressure of a first time tourney got to me, lol. My hand was shaking almost the whole time and nervousness got to me, but oh well that's a first time for me, there will be more and i'll come now knowing what to expect. Also I totaly didn't play my usual way and ended up trying to keeps close, which was really bad for me. Once I figured out how he played and started to play my style again it was too late. Well now i'm more determined to get better and hit the tourneys again! SO thanks for all your help so far guys I would've worse if I never asked for it. Well back to practicing for me
 

Race

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
1,052
Location
So Cal
Gonna upload more vids sometime by the end of this week. I feel that I have improved again since the tourney, lol. I also have a few new mine-c4 tricks I came up with, I wanna see your guys opinion on those. I find it so hard to play pika's and squirts, lol snake's natural enemies!

anyways i'm going to another tourney this weekend and hope to get past the first round, lol wish me luck, heh
 
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