Enough Is Enough. Coaching Needs To Stop.

Last weekend, I had the good fortune of being able to go to APEX 2015. It was, simply put, awesome. Watching players from all around the world compete on the big screen with hundreds of other Smash fans is an experience I won't soon forget. Melee? Great. Smash 4? Amazing. Even 64 got its share of the limelight. But as some of the later Smash 4 matches rolled around, the event slowed to a crawl.

I bet you can guess why.

Far too much time is being spent on this menu during tournaments.​

During Smash 4, there was nearly as much activity in between matches as there was during. People were running up and down the aisle, advising their friends on what to do versus their opponents. Players 'debated their counterpicks' while having full conversations about the last match, or what to do next. It was obvious, it was boring, and everyone but the players involved hated it. Coaching in Smash, especially Smash 4, needs to go - not just for the reasons above, but for the integrity of the game.

Why Is It A Problem?

Coaching has been a contentious issue in Smash for awhile now. At CEO 2014 last year, Project M was plagued by coaching, with mid-set coaching sessions taking longer than the matches themselves in some cases. Because the tournament took so long, several people suggested moving Project M sets from four stocks to three in order to save time - an effective idea that unfortunately did not address the true problem. At that point, Project M 3.0 was a relatively new game still. Compared to other Smash titles, Project M is considered the most matchup-based of the series; many characters have unique gameplay mechanics that must be taught or experienced to be understood. I'd go as far as to say there are situations in Project M where the player with more character knowledge can win over a stronger opponent. Because of this, knowledge of the game is a significant part of the game.

Smash 4 is even more heavily reliant on knowledge: matchups are unique, and situational understanding is a huge part of the game. This is exacerbated by the fact that Smash 4, compared to Melee or Project M, is not particularly technical. There are no useful techniques that are difficult to execute, so a player's technical skill, while important, pales in comparison to what they know. The most important attributes a Smash 4 player can have are situation awareness and adaptability. Giving players 'coaches' that can fill in knowledge gaps allows a second party to essentially adapt for them. So mid-set coaching, where a player is taught what to do in situation X, Y, or Z, gives that player an advantage over their opponent that they frankly have not earned, and do not deserve.

Thousands of people were watching matches during APEX 2015 weekend. Why should they have to watch three minutes of coaching in between?​

Now, some of you may be saying to yourselves, "well who cares? Both players can have coaches, after all." This may be true, but it doesn't make it fair. Coaching becomes doubly problematic when you realize that the only players getting significant mileage out of coaching situations are top players. Regular player Joe Schmoe's friends don't have a lot of great advice to give him; an elite player's training partners, on the other hand, are likely able to tell them exactly what to watch for. As an example, take ZeRo. He is the undisputed best at Smash 4. Nobody doubts his talent, and he will likely be at the forefront of his game for years to come, coach or no. But let's say some new player appears out of nowhere, challenging him for his spot. Should that player have to play against ZeRo and the minds of his top-level friends? Or should he be afforded the opportunity to beat, or be beaten, by the best in the world in a true battle of wits?

So What Should We Do?

Don't get me wrong: this all makes sense. Smash 4 is a new game, and even the best players have a lot to learn before they can claim full mastery of it. Knowledge is far from uniform, and a Rosalina player may notice things about a certain matchup that a Diddy Kong player wouldn't. Everyone wants to share knowledge and help their friends win, and I'll admit that's a noble cause. But at the end of the day, once a set starts, it's a competition between two players - not their posses. Add in the amount of time it wastes throughout a tournament, and you have an issue that not only cheapens competition, but keeps tournaments from running at a consistent pace.

Part of the competitive meta right now is the amount of knowledge you bring into a match. Let's get rid of coaching once and for all, and treat game knowledge like the part of the competition it deserves to be.

This piece is purely the opinion of its author, and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.

 

I'm really new to the scene and didn't think it was a problem. Between the matches I had some time to drink water, look on my phone etc. ... but it really seems to be a problem and I may have a suggestion for that.

"In a Best of three, after the first match, both players have the chance to be coached by one coach for one minute. Character changes should be made while the coaching takes place, the same goes for stage bans."

It is a suggestion, as I said, I'm really new to the scene.

 

I don't understand the coaching problem. If someone needs advice then why is it so big?

Because it takes wayyyyyy to long and makes the event afterwards run later than intended.

 

I think we shouldn't ban coaching entirely, rather just give a set time limit on how long people should coach mid-match.

Agreed. I've never been against it in any other FG so I'm already coming from a biased standpoint here, but it will still come down to player knowledge.

No more than like 30 seconds, though. People shouldn't be up there giving an entire psych class between matches. Same thing with notes, too btw.

End of the day there needs to be a limit for between-match downtime.

That and:

On another note, while I do believe it's not fair for those who don't have coaches, it does kind of promote making more social connections with other players.

This is a very interesting part of it, too.

 

Because it takes wayyyyyy to long and makes the event afterwards run later than intended.

If you do 5 minutes of coaching then there's a problem. Do at least a minute of coaching. There needs to be a time limit.

 

I honestly liked the Top 8 of Smash 4, despite how boring Dabuzs Rosalina was, but the Bo5 Ruleset with coaching was ridiculous.

I would say ban it for now, and if it does regulated, make it only last for 60 seconds or less!

 

Just have every TO equipped with an Airhorn. If they see a coaching session last more than 24 seconds(shot clock time FTW), just blow the airhorn towards the coach and player.

Problem solved.

 

i think coaching should not banned but put to not intervene during or before or in between the match, but via headsets and mic...

The coach also has to be in a dark, dim lit room, smoking a cigarette and plenty of whiskey, oh and also be hundreds of miles away from the tournament in a disclosed location, but preferably underground in a makeshift basement of sorts. Filled with beeping Cpu units, and walls of Tv and computer monitors. His way of communication will be through a staticky, cheap, wal-mart, walky-talky.

How it gets reception from 'hundreds of miles away', i do not know.

Also on the actual player's side, i think IMO, tournements must be played standing up....WHILST, balancing on tall spire-like platforms over lava, or better, the people attending the tournament. Or babies lots of babies, or puppies would be good. It'll be a 100ft fall. Streams will be broadcasted and commentated in Spanish.


But thats just a theory...i'll see myself out :/

 

Everything in smash is a round by round basis. The time between each round is that cool-down period where a player can wipe away their sweat, hear some advice, and take a drink of water or something.

Like I said earlier, this is most similar to boxing, another sport where coaching between rounds (preformed by the corner-man) is indeed allowed, and extremely beneficial.

The only difference is that in boxing, both players always have a corner-man, whereas in smash not everyone does.

As we are trying to strive for fairness for both players, then both players should have the equal opportunity to have the coaches.

With that in mind, If one player doesn't have a coach, then the other player should not be allowed to have their coach for that match.

In the case that both players have coaches, then the time frame should be short enough so that each player can hear a small bit of advice and not an entire lecture. One minute is a good enough time frame for this.

 

learning the matchup, being able to adapt and tame your own mindset is an integral part of smash. you train before the tourney to show yourself thus far off as an individual

players already take half a minute between matches to think on their own, they will keep doing that even with coaching cos you have to take a mo to run the info through your head

just ban it lol

 

The more I think about this I believe a banning of coaching would be best. If we were to allow it but only by certain measures it would make it very difficult to enforce. The best system we could advertise in my opinion is maybe between the game two and game three match the player could ask or have the privilege to have a coach for a minute. Since not all sets go to game three it would help with time efficiency, and game three is the most crucial of a set (obviously in a Bo5 this would be between game four and game five). I myself don't personally believe in coaching, I feel that in a game like smash it really comes down to you. If you rely on other people I feel like your win is tainted in my opinion. In a tournament of this calibur (referencing Apex) it does helps a lot to have other opinions especially other top players. When you plug your controller into the Wii or Gamecube I believe that at that point it's between you and your opponent. In a tournament like this you should have prepared as much as possible to know as much as you possible can. I'm all for getting advice outside of a match, but during a match I believe it is between the two players. It is extremely unfair also for the popularity issue when you have multiple people possibly helping one player, with a shot that the other player doesn't have anyone really giving them any input. So now the match went from a mentality standpoint of one versus one to maybe two or three to one. I don't believe that is right and gives to much of an advantage.

 

I'd have a much bigger problem with it if it was during the match honestly. That should always be banned.

But between rounds seems fine to me. Similar to boxing, as has been mentioned.

 

Where's d1 when you need him to say it ...

 

Coaches in pretty much every individual sport sit in the stands. Golf, tennis, everything. When the game starts, coaching is over. Imagine a chess player getting coached between moves. Pretty ridiculous right?

If you have a coach who teaches you while you practice, whatever. Fine. Having a coach tell you what to do when you flounder during a match is just covering your weaknesses, something you should have done before competition.

It's not about having a major weakness that you need to cover up, it's just about how you are preforming that needs to be addressed when people coach you. Keep in mind that the coach may not know what to do at a period of time, and players facing the being coached may change just to throw off the person they are facing.
^Then again, I might not know what i'm talking about here. I might have only seen one instance of a coaching besides apex.

Just have every TO equipped with an Airhorn. If they see a coaching session last more than 24 seconds(shot clock time FTW), just blow the airhorn towards the coach and player.

Problem solved.

That could possibly be a legitimate answer. I'd love to see someone get blown off on stream.

 

Nothing kills my hype even more than watching a guy lean over and whisper into another mans ear for several minutes.

 

The coaches even had there own "Coach badges" at APEX,kinda stupid to be honest, anything that makes a Smash tournament linger or drag should be removed from the competitive scene

 

I think we ought to limit coaching to 60 seconds maximum. If a player needs any more info than that, they deserve to lose. It's their job to learn the MU, and if they fail at that, they fail at Smash. I completely agree with TheDerrit's position on integrity too. The player did not earn that knowledge, and so coaching eliminates some of the integrity of the match. If you have to be coached, it's not really you playing, is it? Somebody else had to come give you that knowledge.

Yes, one minute I think is enough for giving some tips, the rest should be on the players competing

 

The coaches even had there own "Coach badges" at APEX

O___o You serious?

Yeah that's... lol

 

O___o You serious?

Yeah that's... lol

Yeah that's too much, as if the coaches are just as important as the "Competitor or the Spectators"

 

People complain that Sm4sh takes too long, but in truth, Melee took just as long as Sm4sh at Apex. The reason wasn't because the games themselves that were slow, it's the coaching and all the breaks in the middle that delayed everything. People want Sm4sh to be 2-stock, thinking that the stocks are the problem. But that just makes players more campy and defensive, making games actually longer alongside the huge amount of time spent on the menu. It really was a huge turn off to see the menu screen more than the actual matches themselves.

Coaching needs to go, or be regulated with a timer like they do in sports.

Nah man melee took as long as smash 4 because there were also hand warmers, twice the amount of stocks and there were about 13 games more. the game is defensive because of the engine of the game, brawl had 3 stocks and it was still a camp fest.

 

While I agree that coaching needs to go from tournaments, it's always nice to learn new things about the game. Maybe if we keep coaching for friendlies only, it would be much more appropriate.

 

Yeah that's too much, as if the coaches are just as important as the "Competitor or the Spectators"

Exactly this.

 

This is a small problem, but still a problem none the less. I would say that regulating coaching sessions would be the best route to take.
As for regulations it might be best to have a "coaching timer" (something like 1.5~2 minutes allowed). After that limit is up the next game match must start. You could also have a limit to how many "coaching sessions" are allowed per set. Something like 1 for a best of three and 2 for a best of five set.

 

The NFL has 40 seconds in between plays to talk to their team and come up with a plan. No reason an e-sport shouldn't have the same or similar rules.

 

In my opinion, while I dislike coaching, it does have some merit. When a player is losing a set, they're likely to be a bit flustered. A third party with a clear mind might be able to shed some light and get them back on their feet to level the playing field. A player only plays worse when they're frustrated, and a tournament should be about playing your best.

 

Coaching should be like calling a time-out in football (or any clocked sport really). Limited use, regulated time.

Best of three sets: 1 "time out" coaching call of thirty seconds available to each player.

Best of five sets: 2 of the same.

Best of seven: 3

The reason I think thirty seconds is best is because it makes it less of a full consultation session and more of a quick "Here's what's happening, here's what you can do, I noticed this, etc" advice run as it is in sports. I think that would be a reasonable regulation to impose in tournaments given that it seems a lot of people do have a problem with the way coaching is handled now.

But Hell, I'm just a noob.

 

My thoughts are as followed, Sm4sh is relatively a new game here, and a lot of newer players are entering the competitive scene.

- The ups of having coaches is the newer Sm4sh competitors or any smash game will be able to learn from and acquire skills and knowledge for attending the tournament.
Furthermore higher tier players might sometimes loosen up from the coaching, possibly optimizing their upcoming game, making it more interesting.

- The obvious downside is the extensive amount of time it can take, an easy fix in my opinion would be after the match when on the menu, start a timer for approximately one minute, once that goes off signal the players to jump in the next match or have P3 push start of some kind.

I do however feel that once your arriving to the end of the bracket to stop the coaching.

 

Nothing kills my hype even more than watching a guy lean over and whisper into another mans ear for several minutes.

Hush! He needs 10 more minutes!

 

Nothing kills my hype even more than watching a guy lean over and whisper into another mans ear for several minutes.

Hail Hydra

 

well if people were to actually make coaching formal as to regulate it, I think having something akin to a time-out would be a best solution.

Both players can call for a (e.g.) 30 seconds break for coaching. Thus adding for 1 minute max stoppage time. The coaching time should be able to be called between any game in the set. Maybe only for top 8 or top 16, and just ban it for the rest of the tournament. And in case of GF there should be 1 "time-out" per set, should there be a reset. This would speed things up and make them orderly.

Although I personally feel that banning coaching altogether isn't that bad of an idea, it is certainly a lot simpler.

 

Coaching needs to be treated like timeouts in sports. Only 30 seconds to 2 minutes would be good

 

Coaching is present in other competitive communities. Quick littlen advices between games is not a problem, but present your talking points right away, and don't prolong it.

 

Not all players have top notch coaches but they have smart phones. Any player with a smart phone/tablet can have notes on match ups. People should have notes on match ups written before hand imo.

 

Coaches in pretty much every individual sport sit in the stands. Golf, tennis, everything. When the game starts, coaching is over. Imagine a chess player getting coached between moves. Pretty ridiculous right?

If you have a coach who teaches you while you practice, whatever. Fine. Having a coach tell you what to do when you flounder during a match is just covering your weaknesses, something you should have done before competition.

I had an olympian as a track coach, and he said that whenever he was waiting during his jumps in long/triple jump, he'd look at the stands, find his coach, and get advice. It still happens depending on the sport.

On topic, 1 minute coaching time limit. Any violation = loss of a game. Simple.

 

I think its safe to say it needs to go, I compare it to professional Tennis if the player is seen asking or taking advice from his coach during a match there's a penalty, its two mental athletes going toe-to-toe, if they're taking coaching than its giving them a possible advantage

I.E. Player 1's friend has been watching his opponent, how he rolls or air dodges or even what moves or DI he's planning for after each hit.

This now gives an unfair advantage to Player 1 who, if he was a good enough player would have noticed this before. If you lose your set its up to you to go back yourself and watch the replay to see what you did wrong and let the tournament go on its way.

 

So looking at that vote count, almost everyone either wants it banned or toned down. Interesting

 

Players should not be coached while the game is on-going. Before or after sets, of course you can discuss matchups and techniques as much as you wish, but when you sit down to play, you're supposed to play.

Starcraft 2 allows coaches in the booths during top matches, but this is because these matches take longer to set up, and because the crowd is expecting additional analysis and instant replays (in most cases). In Smash, most people seem very eager to actually watch the game instead of hearing commentators ramble on about what just happened. So, accomodate that and make sure that the games continue.

There are only so many times you can tell people that Diddy's Dthrow is reliable setup.

 

I honestly don't think this is that big of an issue. The sets I saw coaching didn't take longer than a minute or so... if that. Even without a coaches available a player can sit there and conciser options conciser the previous game without conversation take just as long.

A buddy leaning in and saying "he is sharking you go to an FD variant with walls" isn't going to drastically increase the set time.

 

It doesn't need to be banned at all. Being regulated isn't a bad idea since the airhorn concept sounded funny and it does keep the pace for each match at a reasonable speed. However, straight up banning a minor problem to the overall problem is just a bandaid fix. If you want your matches to go a little faster, the ruleset will ultimately have to be changed to accommodate the slow pacing.

 

Just do like they do with online games. Maybe have 30 seconds to 1 minute in between matches. Do all the coaching you want, all the commentary from the hosts that you want, but don't let it drag on. It IS a drag.

 

I think we ought to limit coaching to 60 seconds maximum. If a player needs any more info than that, they deserve to lose.

we need a time limit to all between-game shenanigans, full stop. if it wasn't this, it would be like APEX 2013 where one of the best brawl sets of all time had unfortunate ten minute gaps between them of thinking about counterpicks