MasterDaveNo1
Banned via Warnings
omg the front page is nicer and cleaner now! lol i just noticed. kewl. also, the game.
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Enemy Controller: PRiDE has returned to us, now super hot!
- Thread starter Inui
- Start date
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Kai can you make me a Kai Card? PLEEEEEAAAAZZZZZEEEE
Couple weeks I think o_o
I'm surprised DP even considered it. He probably missed the fact that I'm in the crew.
Kaiber Kop
Smash Master
It was the option being availible from the start that was surprising.
A card? If you actually want win IM me.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
It's not always this simple actually.
BlackWaltzX
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2007
- Messages
- 1,013
So is.
I say yes or no.
If it's difficult, write a list out.
Outweigh pro/con.
Choose one wisely.
There is only one correct answer.
One always lies, the other always tells the truth.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Pierce whats your opinion on the Metaknight vs Marth matchup. Like the ratio.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I'm a former Marth main and that's one of the few match-ups I'm still good with Marth in.
I think that at scrubby levels, it's 60/40 MK. At intermediate levels, it turns into 65/35 because MK's camping shuts down all but the best Marths. When we go into higher levels of play (mikeHAZE/NEO/BarDull/Pierce) it becomes 55/45 MK because a good Marth can use Marth's amazing tools to actually approach MK and outsmart him, and Marth can do nasty stuff when his tech skill is high.
"Outsmart him"
Baiting, mindgames, etc can't be discussed when trying to determine a ratio.
Clearly Marth has to bait to get inside, his pokes are outmatched.
I still think it's 65:35, Eazy and Bardull think it's worse than that AFAIK.
Baiting, mindgames, etc can't be discussed when trying to determine a ratio.
Clearly Marth has to bait to get inside, his pokes are outmatched.
I still think it's 65:35, Eazy and Bardull think it's worse than that AFAIK.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
mikehaze vs m2k make it look like its really dam close. i say its 55-45 is marth is getting in tippers. 60-40 if the mk decides to camp/gimp effectively
Jason told me he hates when Marth just waits and camps, he can't help but attack. He knows camping is more effective. I don't think that set can be a strong example of the match played correctly unless you're Marth.
If the MK decides to attack Marth, Marth just gobbles it all up nom nom nom
no need to approach
If the MK decides to attack Marth, Marth just gobbles it all up nom nom nom
no need to approach
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Yes, they can. At intermediate levels, Marth hits a roadblock and can't get past MK's camping. At higher levels, it evens out because Marth can use better spacing, better technical skill, and more intelligence to get past it and fight MK.
65/35 my balls. Bardull just beat Tyrant the other day. Sorry, but lesser players don't beat better players in 65/35 disadvantages when the better player also knows the match-up very well.
Levitibus
Smash Ace
He beat Tyrant? When was this? Cali tournys never make results threads -.-
Inui
Banned via Warnings
West Coast is like...100% AiB-based. He beat Tyrant and Futile like two weeks ago, IIRC.
Futile is apparently a monster again, btw.
Your arguments are intangibles. We are assuming both characters are at the top level and playing the match correctly so of course the Marth will have superb spacing and control. Why can't the MK also have more "intelligence" to not fall for Marth's baiting?
And from watching Tyrant in multiple vids vs Marth I feel he approaches too much. MK ***** Toon Link, yet when you see Jerm or Santi etc beating MK's in Texas are we to assume the match should be closer to even?
And from watching Tyrant in multiple vids vs Marth I feel he approaches too much. MK ***** Toon Link, yet when you see Jerm or Santi etc beating MK's in Texas are we to assume the match should be closer to even?
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I'm wording it poorly. I'm actually assuming the players are of equal skill. It's just harder for Marth to deal with MK than the other way around (hence the Marth needing to be smarter/faster to win, which leads us to the 55/45 disadvantage).
Santi and Jerm >>>>>> every MK there but Infinity and Dojo, tbqh.
Fight my Marth with your MK, Steely-chan.
Santi and Jerm >>>>>> every MK there but Infinity and Dojo, tbqh.
Fight my Marth with your MK, Steely-chan.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
inui rob vs marth lol 5 buckss
Inui
Banned via Warnings
But you're basically assuming the Marth is completely outplaying the MK in order for the ratio to be 45/55 :/
Marth has to outplay him in every facet to win yeah, but when we're looking at the match on paper it's simply impossible for it to be close to even.
And k :3 But if you win will you say "see lul it's clearly 55 45"? jw
Marth has to outplay him in every facet to win yeah, but when we're looking at the match on paper it's simply impossible for it to be close to even.
And k :3 But if you win will you say "see lul it's clearly 55 45"? jw
Inui
Banned via Warnings
no
i'm assuming the marth is past the "omg MK is camping me what do i dooooo dlshflkdhsfsd" roadblock
nothing else
paper sucks; players like you and emblem lord were the paper, while i was out busting my marth out against teh_spamerer and dmbrandon and going almost even with them LOL
what actually happens is what matters
i'm assuming the marth is past the "omg MK is camping me what do i dooooo dlshflkdhsfsd" roadblock
nothing else
paper sucks; players like you and emblem lord were the paper, while i was out busting my marth out against teh_spamerer and dmbrandon and going almost even with them LOL
what actually happens is what matters
Paper is often very, very different from reality. The assumption that you'll have two people with zero habits, tells, weaknesses, etc is far too generous. I personally feel that a smart Marth can punish the habits that the majority of MKs develop very well (Fsmashing people who are landing, shuttle loop, etc).
Not that I have much Marth experience with MK, though. I smoke Orion's Marth with MK and every other Marth I've played with ZSS.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Faster doesn't mean you have to be a better player. Fox and Falco have to be faster than Sheik in Melee, that doesn't make them worse because you need to "outplay" Sheik to beat her. That being said, Marth still clearly loses to Meta Knight. It is undeniable that when Marth is above Meta, when Marth is on the ledge, and when Marth is decent distance off the stage he is in a ****ty situation. Meta is never in a situation as bad as any of those. Meta outspaces Marth on the ground. Meta's up b OOS and a few other things shut down Marth jumping at him in the air. Outside of grab release, Marth has no way to consistently land a kill move and Marth shouldn't be getting that many grabs on Meta in the first place. Meta racks up damage better and kills faster than Marth because once Marth is in a ****ty situation he takes a good amount of damage(or dies) before he's out of it. The reverse is not true.
zzzzzzzzzzzz ancient times. And at least make it accurate, Emblem Lord did better than you did against me every time.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
That at least looks like it could do that, though.So does Bowser's ftilt.
LOL
Mikehaze loses often to Tyrant anyway, it was a little fishy to me how Bardull could beat him.
Anyway you guys are silly
@cyanide
I don't understand how you can base a match up off of: "Most MK's are going to do this and this so Marth can bait like he's going to do something and then hit him". You base it concerning each characters' tools and pokes and how they can apply them to the match, not assuming that Marth can outsmart his opponent (who are top players of equal skill btw) to avoid MK's camping. MK can also outsmart Marth to shut down every approach and not fall for any baiting, no?
I super condensed how I look at match ups into one sentence.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705
Have fun playing pen and paper Smash, I guess? I'll be busy concerning myself with the actual game.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I know it's ancient. It still reinforces my point that Super Theory Bros. Players, like Steel and EL, were just straight up worse than me just playing the game.zzzzzzzzzzzz ancient times. And at least make it accurate, Emblem Lord did better than you did against me every time.
Emblem Lord did like the same or worse, dude. I was always taking you to last game in close matches with Marth and even won a set (Idc if you went Jiggs, your MK got mega wrecked before you switched).
qft
theory players are usually not that good (except NEO)
just look at Steel, EL, Pierce a few months ago
all Marths held back by theory, lol
slikvik
Smash Master
I need to work on my theory smash. I usually just wing it and hope for the best
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
If you're going to talk about matchups, do it right. Don't talk about them then make fun of someone for wanting to actually talk about it.
Not really since
#1 - I didn't know the matchup the way I do now.
#2 - EL did better.
Rutgers 5th Weekly 4/11/08
I beat EL 2-1, he loses R1 tripping when we're both at last stock high %
Rutgers Leo-Con Brawl Singles 4/19/08
You got 2-0ed
Montage Presents: The Peak, Already? 5/17/08
You win 3-1 when we agree to split the pot and I go Jiggs after R1. Yeah you won first match 2 stock very high %.
Princeton Smashfest 2 June 7, 2008
I beat you 2-1 with you only winning a match off magically spiking me through Meta's side b from the ledge when you're losing by like 90% on your last stock. Jason and Pierce told me at BBC finals that it isn't even possible to do that LOL. R2 and R3 not close.
I beat EL 3-2 with him losing yet another match to me off of tripping and with the exception of the last match, all the matches were close. If the set wasn't bo5, he would have won.
You never used Marth ever after this. It is nothing but bull**** to try and say EL did the same or worse than you when he took me last stock last hit last match every set and lost to tripping both times when you only won two matches in two different sets off me, and one off of a miracle spike I didn't try to meteor cancel because I never expected it would hit.
And FYI, I played EL two weeks before playing Neo and he was infinitely harder than Neo.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
that's not theory, though
Who cares about now? I'm specifically talking about THEN.
Marcel never won a set and he lost to a random bad MK the same day I beat you and dmbrandon, lol.
I still mained Pit, rofl. Nobody cares.
I also beat dmbrandon that day when Marcel lost to RandomMK#11293 in losers and got like 25th.
Last stock mid percent totally is me getting *****, lol...
Yeeeeep.
My bad for barely losing that bad match-up against a better player.
ok ok ok
so let me conclude this for you
Marcel always did really well against you (never won a set, though) but lost to random MKs and got wrecked in dittos by me in tourny.
Dude, he's way worse than me and always has been. He just style countered you or something. You countered ME and I still could still at least win a set (OR MAYBE TWO OR THREE OOOOH YEAH GET WRECKED BY LINK IN LOW TIERS AND MY SUPER CAMPY SNAKE LAST WINTER TOO GOODZ YEAHUZZ).
Now hurry up and get REALLY embarassed about losing to me because you refuse to acknowledge my proven status as a top player and aggressively defend yourself for teh lulz because you think people will actually believe I'm better than you because I say some words, lol...
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
You used Marth at Leo-con. But even if you didn't, you still did worse overall against me.
I wasn't aware diem or LK were known as RandomMK#11293 and that 13th=25th. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Good job forgetting I had two stocks both matches.
You never lost to anyone you're better than? lololol, someone's forgetting Matra in a hurry.
Oh ****, MARTH DITTOS IN BRAWL, the most definitive matchup for deciding skill!
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I went all Pit at that tournament.
My bad, I got two events mixed up.
http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=2653
Go check out Marcel's loss to the great "d" of legend, best MK ever!
You didn't.
Tournaments before the game came out? Oh my!
lol
He also got outplaced by me a lot and lost to people I generally didn't lose to.
He was good, but I was definitely the better player (eventually by a lot).
I don't feel his analysis of the way to look at matchups is correct, as I don't feel, at a base level, that you can separate a character from their player. It's one thing to talk in theory, but theory is only hypothesis until backed up by observation, and as such is dwarfed by actual observation.
If I took his method at face value I'd have to question why Fox didn't win every single Melee match, because at a theoretically perfect level I don't think he's beatable. Obviously this isn't even a viable method of analysis though.
You are acknowledging that the character is played by a human, but that's where you draw the line.
Past that line is where you get into the mindgame aspect of things, and those are intangibles and not fit for match up discussions. You usually don't even bring making mistakes into debates, though the character who breaks that rule is IC's, since one mistake is death.
Baiting is in no way a reliable strat, unlike the tools and attributes you can clearly see that a character has. Peach is trash and sword wielding characters can just attack her because her tools can't compete. You can't argue back and say "Peach can bait your moves and hit in between your fairs". ALL characters can bait.
Past that line is where you get into the mindgame aspect of things, and those are intangibles and not fit for match up discussions. You usually don't even bring making mistakes into debates, though the character who breaks that rule is IC's, since one mistake is death.
Baiting is in no way a reliable strat, unlike the tools and attributes you can clearly see that a character has. Peach is trash and sword wielding characters can just attack her because her tools can't compete. You can't argue back and say "Peach can bait your moves and hit in between your fairs". ALL characters can bait.