Embracing Wave-Dashing

[Paquito]

I honestly don't see a problem with Wavedashing the way it is, and I don't even really do it that much.

Check out this post. tl;dr; It's not a problem for players that have already mastered it, but its needlessly complex input scheme prevents many players from making use of it. It's badly designed. (because it was never designed at all, it's an incidental side-effect of the Melee engine)

Not if you've been able to do it that way for literally 15 years.

I fear I might wind up accidentally wavedashing which isn't as useful as it sounds

Compromise is possible. What if my suggested control scheme only applies to one of the jump buttons. (Either X or Y)

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I feel like I would input this easy wavedash on accident too many times when trying to RAR. It wouldn't be an impossible thing to get used to, but it's nice having fewer ways to potentially mess up. At least its almost impossible to accidentally wavedash in the current system. Other things this can conflict with include triangle-jumps (delaying the wavedash and air dodging into the ground, forming a triangle shape, as a somewhat invincible wavedash) and even short hop dairs and bairs, out of RAR or otherwise.

The other thing is that this system doesn't feel intuitive compared to normal wavedash. If I understand the macro, it's the equivalent of inputting a grounded wavedash without having to press the shield button. While a backdash is just fine and dandy, performing one out of a jump seems to only make sense to people who already know how a wavedash is performed. Meanwhile, as airdodge is already known to do what it does (act as an aerial movement in any direction), once it's known how that applies to landing, the maneuver feels intuitive. It could be made easier by placing a shield button on the face, though, instead of using the trigger (though light-pressing the triggers to shield and airdodge feels great as is).

 

[Zero Kirby]

Check out this post. tl;dr; It's not a problem for players that have already mastered it, but its needlessly complex input scheme prevents many players from making use of it. It's badly designed. (because it was never designed at all, it's an incidental side-effect of the Melee engine)

Shadowstar said it for me

While it's technically "designed" into Project M, it's designed with the whole idea intact. Pressing a direction on the Control Stick doesn't move you five feet in a direction almost instantly. Doing it with the airdodge does. I get the concept behind macros and lowering the skill ceiling, but design should be intuitive and not randomly change the rules on what some buttons do at certain times, especially in a frenetic game like Smash Brothers.

It's not needlessly complex. It requires good reflexes and some speed (and I know how hard it is to teach), but it's three buttons. The Smash Taunts are more difficult to pull off consistently honestly

If you can wind up accidentally doing something you don't want to do for any reason that is beyond your control, especially because for a precious few milliseconds your Control Stick is doing something completely different from what it normally does, it doesn't make you feel in control of your character.

 

[Iceman]

What if I set my Y button to a different action like footstool. Would we have to sacrifice custom controls just to wavedash? Also think the complex input allows more specific control over my character's movement.

 

[TreK]

To be completely honest with you, if you spent in training mode a tenth of the time you've spent double posting in this thread, you'd already be able to wavedash consistently. The hard part is not performing it, it's finding uses for it.

It was intuitive and easy to everyone I've taught it to. unlike L-Cancel

 

[Boiko]

Are people actually serious with this garbage?
I learned how to wavedash when I was 14 years old.

Quit trying to get the easy way out with everything and just practice. Wavedashing as a tech eventually becomes second nature because it's, ya know, easy.

FTR: I play Ness, and I DJC wavedash consistently. I need to jump twice and you only need to jump once but you don't hear me whining that there should be a button for DJC.

 

[Binary Clone]

Like Strong Bad said, if you want to talk about it from a game design perspective, why are you not talking about L-cancelling? There's infinitely better arguments for just completely doing away with L-cancelling than there are for making a wavedashing macro. L-cancelling does nothing but raise the skill floor arbitrarily. It adds nothing strategically to the game, as it is always the best decision, and is just a unintuitive technical barrier to newer players.

Wavedashing, on the other hand, is a movement option, and really, it isn't that technically demanding. I am by no means a good player, but it's not that hard to do. Really, you hit two buttons and hit a direction on the control stick. Do we need a macro for that? Do we need to make changes to how basic inputs are interpreted for the game for that? No. Even besides the fact that your proposed inputs would mess with drifting and RAR, which would require that a movement input be contextually recognized to be something other than a movement input, which, from a design/controls perspective, seems ridiculous to me, the proposed changes are not necessary and do little to lower the skill floor.

 

[1MachGO]

I don't know why this topic is even being entertained.

 

[ofna01]

I don't really understand why you'd NEED a dedicated button to wavedash, because it's already extremely easy to do.
If you're having trouble, just keep practicing.

 

[CORY]

Tilting the control stick up can trigger a jump, an up-smash, and an up attack, but the game can differentiate between those three actions based on context like the speed the control stick is moved, the degree to which it's moved, etc. There's no reason why this wave-dashing scheme couldn't co-exist with directional short-hopping.

Maybe tilting the control stick under the X axis (down-right / down-left) triggers the wave dash, where as on or above the X axis will apply directional influence to your hop. Timing can make a difference here too. If there are "jump" frames where directional influence doesn't yet apply, those could be the frames where a directional press will trigger a wave-dash.

I like the former over the latter, but the point is there are ways to simplify the control scheme for wave-dashing without sacrificing current functionality.

for the first part: one of those is determined by jump squat cancelling (up smash can cancel your jump start up, so you don't need frame perfect inputs to do usmash with the analog). so, then you're left with tilt vs smash inputs. so, your argument to simplify wavedash inputs is that you need to differentiate a tilt vs smash input in the time it takes for you to finish your jumpsquat (between 3-9 frames, at both extremes).

then, it gets more complicated, with air control not being usable with negative x-axis inputs, which is even less intuitive. and wavedashing isn't nonintuitive, once you know what it is. you airdodge into the ground, you keep momentum, you slide. as opposed to "i have to jump, then immediately hold down and a direction, which will then initiate an airdodge for me, but holding down and/or a direction at any other point doesn't do this." this is less intuitive and not necessarily any simpler, since it can still be misinput during a dash forward-wd back, leading to wd in place or wd forward. so, you'd have to practice with this input method, to make sure you can perform it effectively.

just like you would currently.

so, just practice how to wd as it is currently. there's no point in doing nonintuitive control schemes.

the macro idea is more intuitive and would have fewer problems (since you would really not even need to practice, outside of trying to get used to managing length through your angle), but then you can't use the same macro for every character, since wd timing is dependent on your jump squat (so, using fox's timing for bowser would just make you jump and do nothing, but bowser's timing for fox would make you go into the air, then do a partial airdodge into the ground and potentially not gain your momentum).

that means that the pmdt would need to have a way to set up macro timings for each jump-class, which might not be possible if brawl is weird about stuff like that (which it very well might be. no other input that i'm aware of involves [button. wait x frames. button]).

 

[F. Blue]

Okay how would you do slight wavedashes? You know a wavedash isn't just a simple "left, right, or in place" decision, right? Depending on your control stick position it goes different distances.
Your suggestion also removes the option of drifting during the early part of a jump.

My suggestion was better.

A wavedash button would be fine, if it's essentially a macro for Y->wait x jumpsquat frames->R. You'd still input the angle yourself, and obviously it wouldn't replace the traditional method.

This is of course ignoring how feasible it is or isn't to hard code character specific macros into the game. Ideally the wavedash button would be enabled in custom controls and could be banned from tournaments if desired.

 

[Boiko]

It's not like you need wavedashing to win. If you really can't do it, just work around it.

Source: Rolex.

 

[victra♥]

Wavedashing is fine the way it is. It's simple and very intuitive.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

There's a bunch of players here that are pushing back against the idea because they're proud of the fact that they've mastered the technique, and resent the idea that future players may not have to spend the hours they spent mastering wave-dashing.

Look, I get that there's a lot of satisfaction that comes from working through a barrier that takes your game to the next level. But barriers like this are not what good fighting-game design is about, and it's exactly why the genre as a whole has a niche following.

Everyone should check out this "Extra Credits" video: The Fighting Game Problem - How to Teach Complicated Mechanics

tl;dw; The thing high-level players appreciate about good fighting games is not a mastery of button combinations, they appreciate the mind games, the mental chess-match between the combatants. Complicated button combinations is a problem that the genre struggles with, a problem that creates a high barrier of entry.

As I said up-thread, one of the best qualities of the Smash series is that it deals with this problem in a really elegant way:

It's two buttons + a stick direction (Or a stick up + button and stick direction.) It sounds like the only thing you're doing is saying "Hitting two buttons is too difficult, so why not make it one button?" It is not a complicated combination. It's not a 360 motion, nor is it a pretzel, a double half circle, a flash kick super motion, or a Mortal Kombat fatality command. The only thing complicated thing at all about wave dashing is the direction that you push the stick and how far you want to go as a result (Which is the part that you actually have to learn to do right) and that's not the part you want to do away with. you're essentially saying it's too difficult for a group of people to hit L/R in the air and move properly in the direction.

That episode of extra-credits is about the game teaching the mechanics, not about simplifying them to a point where they take no effort to learn.If anything, I'd say a tutorial mode of sorts would be a great addition for Project M, then you can learn how to do everything, but I'm fairly certain that the PMDT has already said it would be too difficult to implement into the game. That means we're left to player made tutorials via reading or video. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's not terrible either. If a player wants to learn, they will. If instead, they want to complain about how difficult techniques are in a game that is full of short simple commands (albeit done quickly at times), then maybe they weren't that interested in trying and wanted the immediate satisfaction of being good without wanting to put the effort into actually learning.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Wavedashing is only not intuitive if you forget the middle step of wavelanding.

i teach it this way:

air dodge into the ground at an angle causes you to slide on that angle.

you can also cause this slide to happen by airdodging before you leave the ground when you jump.

Most people get the concept straight away.

then it's just about learning the timing for their character.

 

[Phan7om]

s" video: The Fighting Game Problem - How to Teach Complicated Mechanics

tl;dw; The thing high-level players appreciate about good fighting games is not a mastery of button combinations, they appreciate the mind games, the mental chess-match between the combatants. Complicated button combinations is a problem that the genre struggles with, a problem that creates a high barrier of entry

No hate on these games, but thats what competitive Brawl/Smash 4 are for.

 

[Celestis]

Jebus. People, try reading through the thread before you respond.





Already answered this:

.. That does not answer that I said.. o.o

 

[Jackson]

It's time to break-free. Project M is the definitive competitive version of Smash.

This is a strong opinion. Many, like myself, consider Melee to be superior.

 

[Paquito]

This is a strong opinion. Many, like myself, consider Melee to be superior.

How come? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Paquito]

.. That does not answer that I said.. o.o

How would my suggested input "remove air dodging over the ground"?

 

[Fortress]

What the **** is this thread even about now.

 

[Paquito]

What if I set my Y button to a different action like footstool.

You can always wave-dash using the current method. I'm not suggesting it be removed.

 

[Paquito]

To be completely honest with you, if you spent in training mode a tenth of the time you've spent double posting in this thread, you'd already be able to wavedash consistently. The hard part is not performing it, it's finding uses for it.l

I know how to wave-dash, consistently, and I regularly practice my mechanics. The point is it should be made more accessible.

And ya, you can teach people to wave-dash, but being able to do it consistently in the middle of a match without messing up and jumping or shielding or air dodging when you didn't intend to takes way more practice than this little maneuver should take to master.

 

[Paquito]

Like Strong Bad said, if you want to talk about it from a game design perspective, why are you not talking about L-cancelling?

Because this specific thread is about wave-dashing? That said:

There's infinitely better arguments for just completely doing away with L-cancelling than there are for making a wavedashing macro. L-cancelling does nothing but raise the skill floor arbitrarily. It adds nothing strategically to the game, as it is always the best decision, and is just a unintuitive technical barrier to newer players.

Good points, that'd be an interesting discussion. I'll start a thread

 

[Paquito]

*snip*

This is a good, thought out post that I want to consider and respond to later

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Stop multi-posting. If you're going to comment or reply to someone later, write up your reply and add it to your previous posts.

 

[Paquito]

Stop multi-posting. If you're going to comment or reply to someone later, write up your reply and add it to your previous posts.

kk.

 

[Leafeon]

There's a bunch of players here that are pushing back against the idea because they're proud of the fact that they've mastered the technique, and resent the idea that future players may not have to spend the hours they spent mastering wave-dashing.

Look, I get that there's a lot of satisfaction that comes from working through a barrier that takes your game to the next level. But barriers like this are not what good fighting-game design is about, and it's exactly why the genre as a whole has a niche following.

Everyone should check out this "Extra Credits" video: The Fighting Game Problem - How to Teach Complicated Mechanics

tl;dw; The thing high-level players appreciate about good fighting games is not a mastery of button combinations, they appreciate the mind games, the mental chess-match between the combatants. Complicated button combinations is a problem that the genre struggles with, a problem that creates a high barrier of entry.

As I said up-thread, one of the best qualities of the Smash series is that it deals with this problem in a really elegant way:

I'm going to go back on the idea for my own main reason. It's a complete waste of time for the dev team to code. Wavedashing is fine as is, is not actually complicated like you seem to think oddly enough (It's three commands, and you only need to input two of them in the correct order?), and would be annoying to handle in any of the ways you've suggested. If I'm holding left to get a full-speed jump to the left, hit the jump, and get a wavedash instead, I'm gonna be pretty ticked. Learn how to do it, it's not hard, and it's not worth the time to change the way it works now.

 

[Paquito]

If I'm holding left to get a full-speed jump to the left, hit the jump, and get a wavedash instead

That wouldn't happen.

Learn how to do it, it's not hard, and it's not worth the time to change the way it works now.

Derp:

I know how to wave-dash, consistently, and I regularly practice my mechanics. The point is it should be made more accessible.

And ya, you can teach people to wave-dash, but being able to do it consistently in the middle of a match without messing up and jumping or shielding or air dodging when you didn't intend to takes way more practice than this little maneuver should take to master.

 

[Fortress]

Wowee, you're quoting yourself to promote a point that you haven't been able to successfully get across to a single reader of this thread.

Just learn to wavedash. It's not hard. And if you're going to talk about simplifying the game in terms of tech that doesn't need to be the way it is, talk about simplifying L-cancelling (why not have all moves be a standardized speed and punishability?), talk about simplifying the DACUS (I only say this because I would assume you did not know the PMDT already did that), or things of that nature.

L-cancelling is done one way, for one reason, and is a simple enough technique to warrant dumbing down past the arbitrary button press that it is.

Wavedashing, on the other hand, is done out of a jump, and further, an air dodge, two huge things used for waaaay more than just wavedashing. The technique is fine as-is. Wavedashing is accessible, I'm not sure why you think it isn't, and if you think it isn't, that leads me to believe that, no, you cannot actually do it like you say. Nobody who can do it and knows its uses would need it to be dumbed down. Things like L-cancelling are the type of things that exist for no good reason. Standardized landing lag on a character's aerials would be something good to suggest.

 

[Leafeon]

If you're shielding on accident, then you don't know how to wavedash. I only spent like, maybe 30 minutes getting the feel for it and never messed it up again. Like Fortress said; it's accessible as is.

This topic would never have been created if you knew how to do it.

In my opinion, accidentally shielding is way better than wanting to shorthop aerial rush and end up getting a badly thought instant WD. WD is far too simple to mess up once you know it, if you're messing it up, you don't know how to do it. You have a general idea of how to do it. There's a fine line between the two.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Who's to say how much effort something should take in order to be able to master?
Should everything just be simplified so that everyone can do everything and no one feels inferior because it's less fun to not be as good as someone who puts more work in than they do?

It already seems pretty simple in practice. Learning how to do it consistently and reliably in a match is something that is also practiced. Just practice it more.

 

[Paquito]

Who's to say how much effort something should take in order to be able to master?
Should everything just be simplified so that everyone can do everything and no one feels inferior because it's less fun to not be as good as someone who puts more work in than they do?

It already seems pretty simple in practice. Learning how to do it consistently and reliably in a match is something that is also practiced. Just practice it more.

Did you get the chance to watch the "extra credit" video I posted up thread?

Just learn to wavedash. It's not hard.

Derp derp!

I know how to wave-dash, consistently, and I regularly practice my mechanics. The point is it should be made more accessible.
And ya, you can teach people to wave-dash, but being able to do it consistently in the middle of a match without messing up and jumping or shielding or air dodging when you didn't intend to takes way more practice than this little maneuver should take to master.

The point about accessibility comes from the video I'm referencing.

 

[Fortress]

Are you actually going to say anything, or just keep copy/pasting videos and Kotaku articles you dug up? Quit posting, die in a fire, I don't care what order you do those in.

 

[Paquito]

Are you actually going to say anything, or just keep copy/pasting videos and Kotaku articles you dug up? Quit posting, die in a fire, I don't care what order you do those in.

Oh, you're the guy from the other thread that got embarrassed when the Masahiro Sakurai quotes I dug up directly contradicted your points, and petulantly argued those quotes didn't count "because Kotaku".

rofl

 

[Foo]

Oh, you're the guy from the other thread that got embarrassed when the Masahiro Sakurai quotes I dug up directly contradicted your points, and petulantly argued those quotes didn't count "because Kotaku".

rofl

Don't make posts like this. Telling someone they got embarrassed is childish. If someone truly was put to shame by the points you made, it'll show and you don't have to say it.

Now, I'll throw my opinion into the thread in a well thought out, educated manner: *deep breath*

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONNONONONONONO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
NOooooooOOOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOoooooo
NOOOO!

There is absolutely no reason to implement what you suggested and the amount of consequences unforseen to you are astounding. For the sake of taking single button press out of a simple and intuitive input, you make it arbitrarly more difficult to shffl, dair out of shield, rar, dash cancel grab etc. While you don't have to hold slightly down to do those things, it is VERY easy to do so on accident. I guarantee you when I rar, I would accidentally wavedash like 30% of the time until I retrained around it. Not to mention the amount of potential bugs that could arise from this. Who knows? You could occasionally air dodge out of your double jump for all we know.

As for the source you keep linking while insisting they prove your point:

The fighting game problem: Oh, the irony, the incredible irony. You realize smash is so popular BECAUSE it doesn't have this problem, right? However, instead of teaching advanced combos and options, smash does away with them altogether. With the slight exception of dacusing and gatling combo (two things I am not very familar with, so maybe they are simple), every single input is simple. There is almost never a time in smash where preforming an action takes more than two buttons. Wavedashing is combining two actions, and removing the bridge between those actions would limit options. Basically, the only way to make smash much more simple is to remove skill cap and depth from the game.

As for the macro, sure why not. Let's put it on the to do list. After the PMDT have indisputably balanced every character the entire game, fixed every tiny bug, made short hopping bindable, removed every unfun mechanic, made 30 tournament viable stages, cured cancer, solved world hunger, brought starbucks to every stressed college student in america, brushed and flossed, and renamed the washington redskins, ma THEN and only then, they'll take the effort to make an optional macro for wavedashing that works for every character.

(anyway, most of my points have been made already anyway. I'm really just posting in this thread in case anyone assumes that because I am in favor of L-canceling being removed that I am also in favor of this)

 

[Paquito]

Don't make posts like this. Telling someone they got embarrassed is childish.

In the post literally before that one, Fortress told me to "quit posting or die in a fire". The post you chose to reprimand was the one where I suggested he embarrassed himself. You guys crack me up

As for the source you keep linking while insisting they prove your point:

I'm not insisting it proves my point. It provides context that allows people to better understand what I'm arguing.

The fighting game problem: Oh, the irony, the incredible irony. You realize smash is so popular BECAUSE it doesn't have this problem, right?

Yes, I do. A few posts before that link, I wrote:

Two points:

1) One of the things that makes Smash a particularly well designed game is that it has a high skill ceiling while maintaining a really low learning curve. You don't have to memorize button combinations specific to a character to know how to basically play them. Smash attacks, ground attacks, air attacks, and special moves all use the same buttons for every character. The skill comes from understanding the differences between characters, and mastering the timing of when to use certain techniques.

2) There's nothing wrong with having complicated techniques in a game, but those techniques shouldn't be arbitrarily complicated. If wave-dashing was intentionally designed into Melee, do you really think this would have been the button combination they would have settled on?

I'm arguing that the unnecessarily complicated input pattern to trigger wave-dashing is contrary to the overall elegant design of the game. To expand on the second point in that quote, how complicated a technique is should be correlated to its impact on the game. Learning to chain SHFFL attacks is one of the more complicated inputs in the game, but the advantage you get for mastering it is well worth it.

Wave-dashing has important strategic value, but not as much as SHFFLing, but the technique's mechanical difficulty is on par with SHFFLing. From a game design perspective, it should be more accessible to newer players than SHFFLing is.

The strong arguments against my suggested input are the ones that suggest it may interfere with existing techniques. They're interesting objections, I'm going to mess around in training and see what I think about them. I don't think the arguments are quite as strong against the macro button suggestion, though.

 

[Narpas_sword]

unnecessarily complicated input pattern to trigger wave-dashing

it's not though.
you're begging the question.

It's 2 buttons and a direction you wish to move.
That's less buttons that a SHFFL
that's similar to using quick attack in 2 directions.
That's less buttons than a ledge hop attack.
It's the same as SHFF Lasers

need i list all the movements/attacks techs with at least 3 components?

****, try SHFF missiles with samus... (melee, not PM, its not possible in PM afaik)
or a Low Rider Missile
Or a SWD
or a DSWD

i hear squirtle has some things....

Wave dashing isn't necessary to low-med level play at all. even high level players can play well without it. it doesnt need to be easier

 

[Narpas_sword]

double post

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Did you get the chance to watch the "extra credit" video I posted up thread?

Someone clearly skipped/ignored the last post I'd made or you would know the answer to that and why the points of that argument are not valid here.

Edit: Sad thing is, that my post is actually on this page, so there's no reason that you should have missed it.