Embracing Wave-Dashing

[Paquito]

Someone clearly skipped/ignored the last post I'd made or you would know the answer to that and why the points of that argument are not valid here.

Edit: Sad thing is, that my post is actually on this page, so there's no reason that you should have missed it.

My bad! You should have quoted yourself, and rubbed that quote alllll over my face.

That episode of extra-credits is about the game teaching the mechanics, not about simplifying them to a point where they take no effort to learn.

I'm not advocating making everything easy to learn. After you posted this, I ended up clarifying what I was referencing to the video, and how it tied to my larger point. Check it out. Thoughts?

 

[Paradoxium]

I think all game mechanics should be simplified (universal 20 buffer ftw), the concept of inputs being difficult just makes no sense from a design stand point.

I actually made a detailed/intelligent thread about this a while ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/advanced-techs-are-hurting-this-game-and-need-to-be-removed.352908/

Not a single person had a reasonable argument against these proposed changes, all they could say was "bcuz melee hurrrrrr"

If you ask me, we shouldn't have to spend years practicing something that we have to use all the time.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

My bad! You should have quoted yourself, and rubbed that quote alllll over my face.



I'm not advocating making everything easy to learn. After you posted this, I ended up clarifying what I was referencing to the video, and how it tied to my larger point. Check it out. Thoughts?

I could have done that, but I try to not be a douchebag when possible.

Unfortunately, the video doesn't have anything to do with reducing complexity, so your referencing the video is kind of pointless. Teaching how to simplify learning and easing people into more complex controls is the entire point of the video, not for simplifying the controls in any manner.

I don't see how you can outright say that SHFFL'ing is more important than wave dashing, when depending on the character you play as, that may not be true at all. It's a situational thing. SHFFL is typically only used offensively, where as wave dashing (and wave landing) is used for offense, for defense and allows for the player to keep their movement somewhat erratic and unpredictable.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I think Terotetrous, or whatever his name was, made a new account

 

[Foo]

In the post literally before that one, Fortress told me to "quit posting or die in a fire". The post you chose to reprimand was the one where I suggested he embarrassed himself. You guys crack me up

Sorry, I forgot that wrong+wrong=right. You are the OP, this is YOUR thread, show it some respect. Every thread gets random flamers if there is an augment occurring, that's the mods job (and they seem to be doing it, judging by the warning fortress received). If the OP starts talking like that, that's when the whole thread turns into chaos and people start flaming you. (acting like that is what got you flamed in the first place). Trust me on this, I've been a mod on 4 different forums, and have had to clean up the aftermath many many times.

As for the rest of your post, wavedashing is NOTHING compared to shffling. I learned to wavedash in like 30 minutes. It took me weeks before I got shffling down. I almost rage-quit smash because I couldn't get shffling right for so long. If there was some way to make wavedashing more simple, then sure, I'd be all for it. But wavedashing is already as simple as it can get without making the game put in inputs for you, but that can easily mess up other inputs. I was juggling with roy's shffl upair and I realized that I would have done a wavedash every single time if your suggestion was implemented.

As for the macro, I'll say it again. You are TECHNICALLY right, it should be in the game. However, that's only assuming the PMDT have infinite time and motivation. It's such a low priority, that even if they worked 24/7 for 3 years, they wouldn't get around to it.

I actually made a detailed/intelligent thread about this a while ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/advanced-techs-are-hurting-this-game-and-need-to-be-removed.352908/

Me: A detailed/intelligent thread on a controversial subject? Hrm, this could be interesting. *click*

"I already know a bunch of you buffoons are going to disagree with this, because for some reason you really want arthritis."

Well, that's a good start..

"1) Automatic chain grabbing- Hold Z and your character will continually chain-grab the opponent."

Well, that's just absurd, I-

"2) Automatic DI- Your character will automatically use combo, and survival Di every time you get hit"

How does it know which DI to- wait, both, bu-

"3) Automatic multishines- Your character will continually shine for as long as you hold the b button"

*sigh* Friggin trolls -_-

*angrily sips coffe*

 

[Binary Clone]

*angrily sips coffe*

Spoiler

Obligatory:

I think there's actually legitimate arguments against a macro, though, that aren't just "because melee" or "because that's the way it is."

Beyond the implementation barrier of having a macro that functions differently across multiple characters, which seems silly to me, there's also the fact that a wavedash macro discourages newer players from learning how to waveland, which is equally (if not more, for some characters) important, and also discourages the use of things like triangle jumps.

The biggest hole right now in Paquito's current argument, as pointed out above, is that SHFFLing isn't actually more important strategically, nor are the two necessarily on-par in mechanical difficulty.

Beyond that, the proposal for the macro doesn't seem to make wavedashing that much easier. You still would need to time your inputs and flick the control stick after you hit the wavedash button, or else risk your character turning around before or as the wavedash is initiated. Which, funnily enough, would also be about the timing you'd use to wavedash with the current system.

And would you just need to tilt the control stick left or right, or would you still need to angle it as you do presently? Because in some ways that's the hardest part of wavedashing anyways.

 

[Paquito]

Sorry, I forgot that wrong+wrong=right. You are the OP, this is YOUR thread, show it some respect. Every thread gets random flamers if there is an augment occurring, that's the mods job (and they seem to be doing it, judging by the warning fortress received). If the OP starts talking like that, that's when the whole thread turns into chaos and people start flaming you. (acting like that is what got you flamed in the first place). Trust me on this, I've been a mod on 4 different forums, and have had to clean up the aftermath many many times.

I've posted in a forum that allows wayyyyyy more hostility than what we have here, so I know what I'm dealing with. Honestly, I personally don't care to have every insult smacked down by mods, I'd prefer to amuse myself by lightly jabbing back. But every forum has it's own culture, and I definitely appreciate your advice

As for the macro, I'll say it again. You are TECHNICALLY right, it should be in the game.

I'm curious, why do you think so?

The biggest hole right now in Paquito's current argument, as pointed out above, is that SHFFLing isn't actually more important strategically [than wavedashing]

There exist competitive players that don't wavedash. Are there competitive players that don't SHFFL?

 

[Binary Clone]

There exist competitive players that don't wavedash. Are there competitive players that don't SHFFL?

Borp.

It's contextually more important. For Ganon, SHFFL is extremely important, wavedashing not so much, wavelanding, very important. For Sheik, neither are actually as important as they are for some characters. For Luigi, wavedashing is arguably the most important part of his toolset.

And you're still not addressing like 70% of my post.

 

[Paquito]

Borp.

It's contextually more important. For Ganon, SHFFL is extremely important, wavedashing not so much, wavelanding, very important. For Sheik, neither are actually as important as they are for some characters. For Luigi, wavedashing is arguably the most important part of his toolset.

And you're still not addressing like 70% of my post.

Sometimes I like to key in on specific points. I might respond later, but the 3.5 announcement has me giddy, and I'd rather play Project M than post about it at the moment

 

[EddyBearr]

P:M doesn't need to be made any easier.

 

[Ganondalf]

How many fighting games allow macro commands for simplifying techniques that a player doesn't want to take the time to learn/do? I can't think of any off the top of my head that are played at a high level.

That's not a logical counter-argument as each game is different and those games purposefully don't improve their controls because fighting game players are horribly conservative and unwilling to change.

but i agree, there is no real way to make wave dashing easier without completely changing how to control your character. It's kinda stuck the way it is due to how weird the movement is in the first place.

 

[Ganondalf]

I think all game mechanics should be simplified (universal 20 buffer ftw), the concept of inputs being difficult just makes no sense from a design stand point.

I actually made a detailed/intelligent thread about this a while ago.

http://smashboards.com/threads/advanced-techs-are-hurting-this-game-and-need-to-be-removed.352908/

Not a single person had a reasonable argument against these proposed changes, all they could say was "bcuz melee hurrrrrr"

If you ask me, we shouldn't have to spend years practicing something that we have to use all the time.

you're right to think that making controls easier is a good idea as it is an easy conclusion to get to, but we;re talking about a community that is already very use to a control scheme; changing it would mean they would also have to change. Fighting games historically have had extremely picky fandoms and Smash is no exception. I must admit, there isn't much to improve on in smash. Most of the movements are fairly simple and the controls are already easy to understand. There are some advanced techniques that require serious practice but these techniques aren't being kept difficult on purpose (like other fighting games stupid button inputs), it's just that the controller only has so many buttons. What would you bind wavedash to? I guess you could take up either L or R because they both do the same thing? It's a weak argument.

TL : DR = Smash's button setup is already bloated and leaves little room for added function. It's just not going to happen.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That's not a logical counter-argument as each game is different and those games purposefully don't improve their controls because fighting game players are horribly conservative and unwilling to change.

but i agree, there is no real way to make wave dashing easier without completely changing how to control your character. It's kinda stuck the way it is due to how weird the movement is in the first place.

It wasn't a counter-argument, it was a question.

 

[Ganondalf]

It wasn't a counter-argument, it was a question.

You made it sound as if we should be following in their footsteps. But to answer the question: It doesn't matter. They are their own game and Smash is vastly different. There isn't a game that smash really resembles so we probably shouldn't try to look towards other games and emulate what they do banking on it being successful for us as it was for them (Look at Mortal Kombat Vs. DC for example)

 

[Foo]

I'm curious, why do you think so?

Because I believe that it is always better to remove unneeded inputs in order to streamline a game. If the input is needed, or removing it limits your options or ability to control your character, it should stay. If you could bind x (or whatever) to "wavedash" and have it jump and air dodge for you, I'd see no reason for that not to be in the game.

However, it would take too much work to implement for too little gain, so it shouldn't be added and never will.

 

[smashbro29]

I can't believe you'd go after wavedashing instead of L-canceling lol. One mechanic is full of depth and simplifying it would ruin that depth (how would you waveland with your suggestion, for example??), the other is literally an arbitrary button press.

One day I hope you write a post explaining why that's in.

I hope it ends with "because melee".

 

[Strong Badam]

You already know!

 

[Stalled]

Because I believe that it is always better to remove unneeded inputs in order to streamline a game. If the input is needed, or removing it limits your options or ability to control your character, it should stay. If you could bind x (or whatever) to "wavedash" and have it jump and air dodge for you, I'd see no reason for that not to be in the game.

Could you expand on that a little bit? I don't really understand why someone would feel this way, I personally think that good execution should be rewarded and bad execution punished.

 

[Foo]

Could you expand on that a little bit? I don't really understand why someone would feel this way, I personally think that good execution should be rewarded and bad execution punished.

I agree completely that good execution should be rewarded and bad execution should be punished, but the mechanics that force you to have precise execution should add a level of depth to the game. It's called "artificial" difficulty if this is the case.

An example of "natural difficulty" would be Dark Souls. As the game proceeds the enemies get more powerful and faster attacks with more varied patterns. This forces you to get better at adapting and reacting to enemy moves as well as getting as much damage in without exposing yourself.

An example of artificial difficulty would be like fallout (even though I love that game.) They have a difficulty meter and if you turn it up, does the AI get smarter, faster or less predictable? Nope, just a bigger healthbar. You play the game exactly the same way, you just arbitrarily have less margin for error.

If the game design is perfect, it will be mechanically intensive, but it doesn't "cheat" in being this way by making you press buttons for no real reason. I think PM does a better job of that than in any other fighting game I've ever played. The ONLY exception is L-Canceling.

 

[smashbro29]

You already know!

Oh you!

 

[Quillion]

I agree with Paquito.

I think L-cancelling is just fine because it's just a little game of timing. If you hate L-cancelling, then you also hate the ukemi because that's also a game of timing.

Wavedashing, on the other hand, goes against the very idea of Smash in the first place: to be a unique, but ultimately simple fighting game where the inputs are simple and the game relies more on what you do with your moves. A physics exploit isn't something that Smash should be built around. Melee SD Remix could balance around it because it's just trying to be a balanced Melee, but with something that's supposedly trying to be like Melee but better but keeping it a physics exploit is the worst kind of game design.

Sure, the momentum-conserving air dodge is a failure of game design (turns an action with a specific but useful purpose into a brainless all-purpose overpowered action), but would anyone here want a hypothetical Super Mario Galaxy 3 to be designed around Yoshi's Infinite Flutter Jump glitch?

 

[Azureflames]

This thread just gives me a headache...It literally just sounds like paquito made a thread to start arguing or at least unproductive discussion. At least the L-cancelling discussion in general has logic to it, although i personally enjoy it in the game and support it (despite it techically being an artifical skill barrier for the most part).

Wavedashing isn't hard, and doesnt take much effort. Paquito, you also clearly stated that you KNOW how to wavedash and do advanced tech and yet you still argue this. If you execute this all then why are you opting for a lazy "solution"or alternative to wavedashing. There's nothing practical for you to even have the thought, unless you want to play the game and be lazy. The only thing i can think is that you either DO have trouble with it, at least enough to bring it up in the first place, or you can't handle not being lazy.

You remind me of the way my Dad argues things btw. He starts by bringing up a point and talks in circles despite concrete logical facts and points being brought up. Reading your replies just sound like you completely disregard other's opinions of people that support the opposite side of your own. You seem to have a very SUBJECTIVE perception, at least from how it sounds through your post. Ill reiterate that wavedashing of all things isnt that hard, especially if you put even 30min of practice for just that tech. 30min is not a long time. So like i said, you either have trouble enough to complain about how it's executed, you are too lazy and want to argue another method, or you straight up just want to argue and debate people on a subject you know people will get you responses.

 

[Ganondalf]

This thread just gives me a headache...It literally just sounds like paquito made a thread to start arguing or at least unproductive discussion. At least the L-cancelling discussion in general has logic to it, although i personally enjoy it in the game and support it (despite it techically being an artifical skill barrier for the most part).

Wavedashing isn't hard, and doesnt take much effort. Paquito, you also clearly stated that you KNOW how to wavedash and do advanced tech and yet you still argue this. If you execute this all then why are you opting for a lazy "solution"or alternative to wavedashing. There's nothing practical for you to even have the thought, unless you want to play the game and be lazy. The only thing i can think is that you either DO have trouble with it, at least enough to bring it up in the first place, or you can't handle not being lazy.

You remind me of the way my Dad argues things btw. He starts by bringing up a point and talks in circles despite concrete logical facts and points being brought up. Reading your replies just sound like you completely disregard other's opinions of people that support the opposite side of your own. You seem to have a very SUBJECTIVE perception, at least from how it sounds through your post. Ill reiterate that wavedashing of all things isnt that hard, especially if you put even 30min of practice for just that tech. 30min is not a long time. So like i said, you either have trouble enough to complain about how it's executed, you are too lazy and want to argue another method, or you straight up just want to argue and debate people on a subject you know people will get you responses.

Quillion brings up a good point. Wavedashing was a fluke and wasn't intentional. So now, after we embrace a glitch in the game, why don't we try to streamline it and actually incorporate it? So far, nobody has given a logical argument against simplifying it other than button space which is legitimate and we can argue about it all day and you may even be right...

The argument of : "It isn't that hard" and "It's always been like that" is a fallacy in of itself thus you are only looking like an elitist idiot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

sorry, but these don't hold up. Wavedashing is only the way it is because people wanted to preserve the practice time they had gotten in melee in the past (tradition) and learning a new way to do things isn't appealing. Sadly, this is the weakness to the fighting game genre; the public is incredibly resistant to change for no reason other than to keep their practice and remain better than average. It's not malicious or done to hurt others, it's done out of laziness and the idea that it's better just because it's the way they learned it. Wavedashing, whether hard or not to whomever, is the way it is for the sake of tradition, not for accessibility or practicality. Two things which should be the fore-front of game design. Arcane tricks, that don't come naturally or are learned by simply playing the game without a guide or someone telling you how to play, should be rethought and redesigned. It's game making 101 practically.

And no, most people don't just 'stumble' on wavedashing and see the potential and know how to do it.

 

[Leafeon]

Quillion brings up a good point. Wavedashing was a fluke and wasn't intentional. So now, after we embrace a glitch in the game, why don't we try to streamline it and actually incorporate it? So far, nobody has given a logical argument against simplifying it other than button space which is legitimate and we can argue about it all day and you may even be right...

The argument of : "It isn't that hard" and "It's always been like that" is a fallacy in of itself thus you are only looking like an elitist idiot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

sorry, but these don't hold up. Wavedashing is only the way it is because people wanted to preserve the practice time they had gotten in melee in the past (tradition) and learning a new way to do things isn't appealing. Sadly, this is the weakness to the fighting game genre; the public is incredibly resistant to change for no reason other than to keep their practice and remain better than average. It's not malicious or done to hurt others, it's done out of laziness and the idea that it's better just because it's the way they learned it. Wavedashing, whether hard or not to whomever, is the way it is for the sake of tradition, not for accessibility or practicality. Two things which should be the fore-front of game design. Arcane tricks, that don't come naturally or are learned by simply playing the game without a guide or someone telling you how to play, should be rethought and redesigned. It's game making 101 practically.

And no, most people don't just 'stumble' on wavedashing and see the potential and know how to do it.

I'm not arguing it becuz melee. I'm arguing it because it's TWO BUTTONS. Wtf? What's a better way to be practical and accessible without putting hours into coding a crappy macro that only the laziest players would use? Oh, right, to leave it as is, because two buttons doesn't warrant it.

I bolded a part in your quote. If we're being lazy to not want to change the way it is now, I think you're even more lazy for wanting it to be simpler. Because it's already simple as ****.

There's a million guides out there how to do it, but they all result in one thing. Airdodge into the ground at the angle you want to go at. When you have that, you end up with several different options just from knowing it.

Making a macro to jump->airdodge wouldn't work, and the reason being is that it would require another code to wait however many frames your character's jumpsquat is, and then airdodge for you. Jumpsquat varies by character, so the macro in and of itself would have to be made for several different versions.

Now that sounds good, but here's the tricky part. After you've got it set to jump, wait 4 frames and then airdodge, what you'll end up with is bad wavelands because you just tried to doublejump right before airdodging, and hell if you aren't going to wish you just did it normally when learning how to ledgedash.

There is a way to macro it, probably, sure, but I disagree that it would be worth the time and effort, considering all of the options lost because the newbie chose to use the macro.

It's still going to take airdodging, and it's still going to take jumping, and it's still going to take those few frames of jumpsquat in between into account because it would otherwise require a change in the system to make it perfect-- which isn't worth it.

Happy you finally got your "legitimate" argument?

 

[Foo]

Quillion brings up a good point. Wavedashing was a fluke and wasn't intentional. So now, after we embrace a glitch in the game, why don't we try to streamline it and actually incorporate it? So far, nobody has given a logical argument against simplifying it other than button space which is legitimate and we can argue about it all day and you may even be right...

The argument of : "It isn't that hard" and "It's always been like that" is a fallacy in of itself thus you are only looking like an elitist idiot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

sorry, but these don't hold up. Wavedashing is only the way it is because people wanted to preserve the practice time they had gotten in melee in the past (tradition) and learning a new way to do things isn't appealing. Sadly, this is the weakness to the fighting game genre; the public is incredibly resistant to change for no reason other than to keep their practice and remain better than average. It's not malicious or done to hurt others, it's done out of laziness and the idea that it's better just because it's the way they learned it. Wavedashing, whether hard or not to whomever, is the way it is for the sake of tradition, not for accessibility or practicality. Two things which should be the fore-front of game design. Arcane tricks, that don't come naturally or are learned by simply playing the game without a guide or someone telling you how to play, should be rethought and redesigned. It's game making 101 practically.

And no, most people don't just 'stumble' on wavedashing and see the potential and know how to do it.

Oh boy, someone is bringing up fallacies in this thread. *rubs hands together greedily*

Have you actually read the thread? Almost nobody appealed to tradition, that vast majority of arguments were unrelated. Also "because melee" isn't appeal to tradition fallacy for the most part. Nobody is saying "keep wavedashing in because it was in melee" it's "keep wavedashing in because it worked well in melee." This would be the same as making a pro gun control argument and stating that gun control worked very well in australia.

Also, I am 99% sure no one did an appeal to the people fallacy. If anyone did, it was because they were frustrated; that wasn't their actual point. i.e. "Dude, just give up the argument, everyone disagrees with you."

Ironically, you are using a strawman fallacy by pretending all of our points boiled down to "because it's always been like that" to make you seem right. "So far, nobody has given a logical argument against simplifying it other than button space which is legitimate and we can argue about it all day and you may even be right..."

The arguments FOR wavedashing are as follows.

It's not that hard: In more words, this means that it is as already as simple as it can be without diminishing gameplay depth. There is absolutely no way to make it more simple in inputs without either creating a macro (some would view this as cheating) or making a "shortcut input" that would interfere with other inputs such as RARing or shffling. It's only two buttons and a direction. If you took out the direction, you would remove angles. If you took out the jump, it would prevent you from shielding/rollling etc. If you took out the air dodge, it would prevent jumping.

The only way to make it more simple is to add a macro. If adding a macro is the correct choice, we should also make one for.
DACUS
RAR
Roll
Spot-Dodge
Smash attacks
tilts
directional b moves
etc.

"Wavedashing was a fluke and wasn't intentional. So now, after we embrace a glitch in the game, why don't we try to streamline it and actually incorporate it?" It's not a glitch, it's a coincidence. Because of the way the physics engine was designed, you are able to do that. It wasn't expressively intended, but that's irrelevant. In fighting games, not every single combo was designed to work, but should we ban all unintended combos or bind them to macros? Absolutely not.

Honestly, you are just being lazy. Wavedashing is a very simple in it's own right, and is especially simple when compared to other fighting games.

(oh, and btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy )

I agree with Paquito.

I think L-cancelling is just fine because it's just a little game of timing. If you hate L-cancelling, then you also hate the ukemi because that's also a game of timing.

Wavedashing, on the other hand, goes against the very idea of Smash in the first place: to be a unique, but ultimately simple fighting game where the inputs are simple and the game relies more on what you do with your moves. A physics exploit isn't something that Smash should be built around. Melee SD Remix could balance around it because it's just trying to be a balanced Melee, but with something that's supposedly trying to be like Melee but better but keeping it a physics exploit is the worst kind of game design.

Sure, the momentum-conserving air dodge is a failure of game design (turns an action with a specific but useful purpose into a brainless all-purpose overpowered action), but would anyone here want a hypothetical Super Mario Galaxy 3 to be designed around Yoshi's Infinite Flutter Jump glitch?

- Wave dashing is a matter of timing as well.
- Wave dashing is a simple input with obvious application
- Smash isn't BUILT around wavedashing anymore than it is around any other random tech.
- Project M is trying to be melee, but with better balance and more characters and stages (and more techs).
- Brainless all-purpose overpowered action? Please, explain this, I'd love to hear it. Please explain how the ability to move slightly forwards or backwards in about 6 frames is any of those things.
- "but would anyone here want a hypothetical Super Mario Galaxy 3 to be designed around Yoshi's Infinite Flutter Jump glitch?" Glitches and exploits are kind of like genetic mutation. Mutation has a bad connotation because it is generally a bad thing. Extra limbs, genetic disease, deformities. However, mutations can sometimes produce advantageous things. A glitch or exploit should be judged on if it's good or bad, not on whether it's a glitch/exploit of not. This exploit just happens to be a happy accident.

Also, who are you to decided what goes against the idea of smash in the first place?

 

[Quillion]

- Brainless all-purpose overpowered action? Please, explain this, I'd love to hear it. Please explain how the ability to move slightly forwards or backwards in about 6 frames is any of those things.

My mistake, I should have said the momentum-conserving air dodge of Brawl and Smash 4. The Melee air dodge clearly isn't a failure even if you remove the wavedash.

- "but would anyone here want a hypothetical Super Mario Galaxy 3 to be designed around Yoshi's Infinite Flutter Jump glitch?" Glitches and exploits are kind of like genetic mutation. Mutation has a bad connotation because it is generally a bad thing. Extra limbs, genetic disease, deformities. However, mutations can sometimes produce advantageous things. A glitch or exploit should be judged on if it's good or bad, not on whether it's a glitch/exploit of not. This exploit just happens to be a happy accident.

Yes, but should another Mario game bring it back unchanged, or make it some kind of powerup with a simpler input so that it's still fun without being broken?

In more words, this means that it is as already as simple as it can be without diminishing gameplay depth.

I made a post in the other "simplify wavedashing" thread that debunks this.

 

[Niko Mar]

Just completely take out wave-dashing, who needs it .

Spoiler

To be honest, I'd like to see how this game fairs without the inclusion of wave-dashing; but if you were to make it more simple, I'd suggest mapping it to a single button. Players could then change where said button is based on their favored control layout, so it could work with anyone (along with keeping "natural wave-dashing"). So pressing X or whatever gives you an extremely short hop and the down-dodge command, allowing you to control direction with the stick. Imagine titling the stick at certain angles or even smashing it in a direction with the button press to swiftly wave-dash.

Btw, I understand that wave-dashing is supposed to be a "deep mechanic," but let all of that "deepness" be centered around exactly what people decide to do with it (not how they do it). Telling someone to simply "get gud" with wave-dashing the way it is, and that "it shouldn't be simpler" is akin to Bill Trinen stating that the c-stick "is an aid for inexperienced players" and that "if you don't need it, you should be ashamed of using it."

 

[Mansta]

I have an auto wavedash button called muscle memory, it's seriously not that hard if you actually practice and try not to get frustrated at it.
Or we could put in an actual wavedash button so it makes it even easier for me to play Luigi.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I thought I could never read anything more frustrating than an L-cancelling debate.

There's so many smashers who think they're already the best at what the game "should" be and its the fault of the developers that there are mechanics preventing them from winning everything. You could also call these people scrubs. Please just get good

 

[Foo]

Just completely take out wave-dashing, who needs it .

Spoiler

To be honest, I'd like to see how this game fairs without the inclusion of wave-dashing; but if you were to make it more simple, I'd suggest mapping it to a single button. Players could then change where said button is based on their favored control layout, so it could work with anyone (along with keeping "natural wave-dashing"). So pressing X or whatever gives you an extremely short hop and the down-dodge command, allowing you to control direction with the stick. Imagine titling the stick at certain angles or even smashing it in a direction with the button press to swiftly wave-dash.

Btw, I understand that wave-dashing is supposed to be a "deep mechanic," but let all of that "deepness" be centered around exactly what people decide to do with it (not how they do it). Telling someone to simply "get gud" with wave-dashing the way it is, and that "it shouldn't be simpler" is akin to Bill Trinen stating that the c-stick "is an aid for inexperienced players" and that "if you don't need it, you should be ashamed of using it."

Why do people act like it's so complicated? It's two buttons. TWO. Is using lucario spirit bomb too hard for you guys? If it took uneeded button presses, then sure, I'd agree, but it's as simple as it can get without using macros.

My mistake, I should have said the momentum-conserving air dodge of Brawl and Smash 4. The Melee air dodge clearly isn't a failure even if you remove the wavedash.



Yes, but should another Mario game bring it back unchanged, or make it some kind of powerup with a simpler input so that it's still fun without being broken?



I made a post in the other "simplify wavedashing" thread that debunks this.

- How is brawl and smash 4 relevant to this discussion?

- A game breaking glitch and a minor physics quirk are completely unrelated. No, mario galaxy 3 should not be built around the infinite flutter jump glitch from galaxy, the same way project m shouldn't be built around the black hole glitch, the masterhand glitch, phantom hits, etc.

- "I made a post in the other simplify wavedashing thread that debunks this." Am I supposed to just take your word for this? lol

Oh well, I found it anyway. You said that by double tapping and holding, you'd run and double tap and release would wavedash. Now let me tell you why that idea is pants on head ********.

1. That is still two inputs in a direction. The only difference is that it's the same one twice.
2. That interferes with wavedashing, dashing, and shffling. Being forced to double tap will increase the time it takes to input dash to about six frames from one. Without enough leeway, it would be extremely fiddly. Since you'd have to input, reset to middle then input again, it'd take around 5 frames AT LEAST. This would make the game feel much slower and clunkier. Not to mention, everyone would be livid because all their muscle memory would be ruined. Now, you may be thinking, well, just make it tap once and release to wavedash and tap once and hold to dash. However, that would make shffling limited. If I am comboing with a shffled nair, I input dash then immediately let go and jump to maintain momentum while still being able to nair.

Next in line is your second post in that thread which could be the post you are referring to.

You suggest wave dashing by "tapping the analog stick repeatedly left or right"
- Gee, no way this could ever interfere with dash dancing.

Waveshield "Right after tapping the analog stick, press L. It's like the difference between a smash attack and a dash attack"
- There's an input being used already, it's called rolling. Now, in order to roll, you'd need to wait. Again, this would make it slightly clunkier. This also barely removes an input. You'd have to smash stick instead of just holding.

Wavesmash "Right after tapping the analog stick, tap the c-stick.
- RIP pivot smashes.

Edgehogging "Make it that a back tap on sends you sliding backwards. If this interferes with dashdancing, make it that back-and-forth tapping does dashdancing instead."
- RIP Dash dancing or just dashing backwards in general. Also, RIP foxtrotting and shffling.

IF you come up with an idea for simplifying wavedash that doesn't interfere with other mechanics ANY way and isn't a macro, you won't because it's impossible. If if you broke the laws of physics and did it, I'd be in full support.

 

[Paquito]

Why do people act like it's so complicated? It's two buttons. TWO. Is using lucario spirit bomb too hard for you guys? If it took uneeded button presses, then sure, I'd agree, but it's as simple as it can get without using macros.

So, I think you asked me this up-thread, and I was putting off answering it until I played around with some of the techniques people thought would conflict with my suggestion at the start of the thread, but I may as well throw it in now.

It's not just that it's two buttons, but also that it involves R, whose analog input you have to get through before getting to the digital click you need to trigger to initiate the air dodge. It takes a good deal of practice to master, and per my point above, that effort doesn't seem in line with the usefulness of the technique.

 

[Foo]

So, I think you asked me this up-thread, and I was putting off answering it until I played around with some of the techniques people thought would conflict with my suggestion at the start of the thread, but I may as well throw it in now.

It's not just that it's two buttons, but also that it involves R, whose analog input you have to get through before getting to the digital click you need to trigger to initiate the air dodge. It takes a good deal of practice to master, and per my point above, that effort doesn't seem in line with the usefulness of the technique.

1. It doesn't take that much pratice.
2. If you don't like using L or R for it, just bind x or z or something to airdodge.

 

[Niko Mar]

Why do people act like it's so complicated? It's two buttons. TWO. Is using lucario spirit bomb too hard for you guys? If it took uneeded button presses, then sure, I'd agree, but it's as simple as it can get without using macros.

Lol no need to get cheeky up in here.

Is a smash attack too complicated for you? Let's just eliminate the c-stick....oh wait.

A wave-dash is performed via a short hop into an air-dodge at a downwards angle. It's not just two buttons, it's precision and care, and you can frustratingly screw-up the motion during the heat of battle. I'm not arguing about the ease of use, only suggesting that it'd benefit everyone to make this command available on a button as well.

 

[Foo]

Lol no need to get cheeky up in here.

Is a smash attack too complicated for you? Let's just eliminate the c-stick....oh wait.

A wave-dash is performed via a short hop into an air-dodge at a downwards angle. It's not just two buttons, it's precision and care, and you can frustratingly screw-up the motion during the heat of battle. I'm not arguing about the ease of use, only suggesting that it'd benefit everyone to make this command available on a button as well.

As has been stated before, no one REALLY disagrees with that. The problem is the amount of improvement that is received out of that much work. They would have to make a macro that works for every single characters jump squat (somehow) and make that bindable to one key. If that's even possible for PM, it'd take a lot of work, and for what? To shave one button press off of an already simple input?

Even if you made it a macro, you'd have to keep the analog stick direction in or you would remove the depth of wavedashing at precise angles.

Also, there are some hidden potential repercussions to making this a macro. If there's one for wavedashing, surely there much be one for dacusing as well, then ledge dashing, etc. There are many other techs in this game that could use a macro as well.
Since the macro would have to work for every character, it would have to adjust to your characters jumpsquat. This could easily be buggy.
Using a macro would desociate wavedashing and the airdodge physics. Not having to learn wavedashing the "proper" way would keep new players from fully understanding how incredibly useful wavelanding is. The time I started learning wavedashing was also the time I started wavelanding on platforms and etc.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Streamlining L-canceling makes sense because it happens the same way every time. Streamlining the wavedash technique is pretty hard to do because it already uses a solid button combination. It never happens the same way unless you want it to and you can control your sliding trajectory by changing the direction/timing.

Wavedashing also doesn't give your opponent a big advantage. It's just a different form of movement that isn't much safer than dashing but it does let you get up in someone's grill to smack 'em quicker than normal dashing could. You can also punish people who do it too much or make it predictable. Meanwhile L-canceling always gives an advantage because it allows you to act faster so you can quickly follow up with wavedashing, shielding, or attacking.

 

[Paquito]

1. It doesn't take that much pratice.
2. If you don't like using L or R for it, just bind x or z or something to airdodge.

You're speaking from the perspective of a competitive player that's willing to take time to perfect all your mechanics. I guess I haven't been clear enough about this, but when I say wavedashing should be made more accessible, I'm arguing that it's a technique that should be something that more casual players have access to. The ability to quickly reposition yourself without changing the direction your character is facing shouldn't be that much more difficult to learn than the short hop.

 

[Foo]

You're speaking from the perspective of a competitive player that's willing to take time to perfect all your mechanics. I guess I haven't been clear enough about this, but when I say wavedashing should be made more accessible, I'm arguing that it's a technique that should be something that more casual players have access to. The ability to quickly reposition yourself without changing the direction your character is facing shouldn't be that much more difficult to learn than the short hop.

You misunderstand me, though. I'm not arguing that wavedashing should not be streamlined for the sake of keeping it the same, or for the sake of keeping it harder. I'm saying there is no good way to streamline it because it is already as simple as it gets without making a macro. However, that would be silly and nearly impossible because of varying jump squats and how many mechanics that deserve a macro exactly as much as wavedashing.

I am all for making the game more accessible to casual players, but only where it doesn't damage another aspect of the game and only where it's realistic. When I say short hopping "isn't that hard" and "doesn't take that much practice," I'm saying that you guys are over-exaggerating how difficult it is. Here is a list of techs that are considerably harder than wavedashing.

Ledgedash
shffl
ledgehopffl
dacus
gating combo
pivoting
edge canceling
acting out of throws frame perfectly
moonwalking
etc.

At some point, you'll have to accept that pm is a very technical game, and it NEEDS to be. With the excepting of L-canceling, there are no uneeded or arbitrary button inputs AT ALL. Adding macros can make just about any game in the world simpler, and I don't think that's a route that should be taken, especially due to the limitations.

I promise, wavedashing is not hard. If anyone spent half as long learning to wavedash as you spent posting in this thread, they'd have mastered waveddashing. Just pick your main, and practice wavedashing for one hour, and you'll get it mostly down. Then start using it in games until you are perfect at it. It's that simple.

If you are a casual player who never wants to be competitive and doesn't want to put that much effort in, you don't need to wavedash anyway, it's not that important. Only really good players can fully utilize wavedashing anyway. (I can barely utilize it)

 

[Niko Mar]

As has been stated before, no one REALLY disagrees with that. The problem is the amount of improvement that is received out of that much work. They would have to make a macro that works for every single characters jump squat (somehow) and make that bindable to one key. If that's even possible for PM, it'd take a lot of work, and for what? To shave one button press off of an already simple input?

Even if you made it a macro, you'd have to keep the analog stick direction in or you would remove the depth of wavedashing at precise angles.

Also, there are some hidden potential repercussions to making this a macro. If there's one for wavedashing, surely there much be one for dacusing as well, then ledge dashing, etc. There are many other techs in this game that could use a macro as well.
Since the macro would have to work for every character, it would have to adjust to your characters jumpsquat. This could easily be buggy.
Using a macro would desociate wavedashing and the airdodge physics. Not having to learn wavedashing the "proper" way would keep new players from fully understanding how incredibly useful wavelanding is. The time I started learning wavedashing was also the time I started wavelanding on platforms and etc.

Now see, this is a strong and agreeable response. Getting this to work really would be the hardest part, as I honestly wouldn't have much info on how to implement such a command universally.

On the side of "people not learning 'proper' wave-dashing," I would easily say that this would instead allow newer players to transition smoothly into learning wave-dashing/landing as it is now. In fact, single button wave-dashing could be slightly less useful than its traditional form in some way, awarding players that can pull off the multiple inputs correctly.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

DISCLAIMER: I DON'T ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE FOLLOWING. I LIKE THE DIFFICULTY OF L-CANCELLING AND WAVEDASHING

but if I had to suggest any way to make wavedashing easier, it would have to be to make it possible to airdodge during jumpsquat frames. Then you get a lot more leeway with every character to do perfect wavedashes.

 

[Bleck]

come on now even I think wavedashing is fine