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Eggs and DJC: A Yoshi Guide, Finished

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
This will be a smash 64 guide for playing as one of the DJC kings, Yoshi. It will be split up into parts

I. Pros and Cons.
II. Acronyms and basic techniques
III. The moves
IV. AdvancedTechniques
V. Matchups
VI. Closing comments

I.
Pros:
1. Yoshi has the longest double jump in smash 64. It also has many unique properties
2. Yoshi has a unique shield and is one of 2 characters that can Double Jump Cancel
3. With quick hands, Yoshi proves deadly
4. Up tilt has set knockback allowing easy kills at higher percentages vs virtually every character but Jigglypuff
5. High priority projectile

Cons:
1. Yoshi has one of the harder learning curves in smash 64.
2. DJC takes quick hand speed and many people will only be kept from reaching Yoshi's full potential by their hand speed
3. Yoshi does bad vs. many of the better characters, specifically Pikachu, Kirby and Jigglypuff
4. A bad throw and a moderately bad roll
5. Drills hurt yoshi's recovery and can cause gimps

II. General Terms and Acronyms
U-air: Up air, the upwards tail move
N-air: Neutral air, the single kick
B-air: Back air, the back kick
D-Air: Down air, the multiple kicks, also known as the flutter kick, a Drill
F-Air: Forward-Air: The head hit, a Spike
Spike: move that sends an opponent straight down, as in Yoshi's f-air
Drill: Multiple hit move that sends an opponent down, as in Yoshi's Down air
Lag: how long it takes for a move to begin or end

III. Moveset
Standard Attacks

Jab

A Kick, 3%
AA Double Kick, 5%
Total: 8%

Description:
2 kicks. A moderately useful move, good for spacing, can combo off the Hyrule wall. Shield tapper.
Usefullness: 1.5/5

Dash Attack

Damage: 12%

Description:
A running hit. Good knockback, only useful for edgeguarding or mindgames. Main problem is that there is lag at the end so characters that can shield and then just hit you :D. Never spam this move.

Usefulness: 1.0/5

Tilts

Side-Tilt

Damage: 12

Description:
Upwards kick. Medium knocback so its quite good in combos. Shield tapper. Can combo into f-air spike for a quick gimp. Yoshi's second best tilt but overall one of the best f-tilts in the game.

Usefulness: 4/5.

Up-Tilt

Damage: 10%, SET KNOCKBACK

Description: tail hits above Yoshi's head, a set knockback move. Staple in almost every single Yoshi combo. Incredibly useful vs basically every character. at low percentages: incredible combos, at high percentages: kill combo, combo into down air, f-air, n-air, and up air, especially DJC'd

Usefulness: Depends on weight
Super Light (Jigglypuff, Pikachu or Kirby): 2/5
Other Floaty characters (Samus/Luigi): 3/5
Medium/non-floaty (Mario/Ness/Yoshi): 4/5
Heavy or fast fallers characters (Link, DK, Falcon, Fox): 5/5


Down-Tilt

Damage: 8%, Set knockback (thanks)

Description: low tail hit, a moderate Semi-spike, least useful of the tilts, wall combos, most notable vs Jigglypuff or Kirby, no real combos into it.

Usefulness: 1.5/5, 2/5 vs Jigglypuff and Kirby

Smashes

Forward Smash

Damage: 13%

Description: Headbutt, moderately useful, great knockback, good edgeguard move vs Fox and Falcon

Usefulness: 2/5

Up Smash

Damage: 14%

Description: A upwards headbutt, great knockback, up tilt into up smash is one of Yoshi's best kill combos vs medium to heavy characters, also possible after up airs at low percentage, also possible after down air, best smash of Yoshi's

Usefulness: 4/5, 3.5/5 vs characters that up tilt can't combo into it

Down Smash

Damage: 14-16 forward, 12-14 back

Description: Good tech chaser, good edgeguard move if someone rolls, moderate knockback, problem is that nothing can combo into it easily besides MAYBE d-air, surprising range

Usefulness: 3/5

Aerials

Neutral Air

Damage: 12-13 but goes down

Description: a sex kick, great to DJC, so-so to not. good priority, good knock back. Can combo multiple N-airs at low percentages. can combo multiple of these on a shield to shield break (takes very fast hands)

Usefulness: 3/5

Forward Air:

Damage: 14

Description: Spike, quite useful off the edge...on the ground it can combo into up smash, back air, and down b, at high percentages it can combo into up air also. Also, use it off the edge if someone tries to kill you, least useful to DJC, most useful to not

Usefulness: 3/5

Back Air

Damage: 12 to 14

Description: A back kick, up tilt to back air, Yoshi's version of the wall of pain(?), High priority

Usefulness: 3.5/5.


Up Air:

Damage: 12

Description, up tail, with DJC one of the best moves, up tilt to DJC up air. Up air to up smash, up air combos galore

Usefulness: 5/5


Down Air

Damage: 12-60, yes 60

Description: known as the flutter kick, if all kicks hit its an instant shield breaker, less useful vs people who DI well. Vs people who don't: up tilt to down air, repeat to 100, up smash, moderately useful to DJC, down air to up smash is a good combo

Usefulness: vs people who know how to DI: 2.5/5, vs people who don't....10/5

B Moves

Neutral/Side B

Damage: 5%

Description: Egg Lay, creates...an egg of someone else, more for mindgames than anything, the main use is to egg someone off the ledge, causing them to fall instantly

Usefulness: .5/5 on the stage, 1/5 off


Up B

Damage: 14-16

Description: High priority projectile with good knock back, TOO GOOD, edge canceled eggs make it even more useful, good to use vs characters that camp or are difficult to approach, edgeguard move vs Fox, Falcon, and almost everyone



Usefulness: 3.5/5


Down B

Damage: 18%

Description: A jump and then a fall, in the air, just the fall, high knockback but lag, predict where the will go and wham, can be edge cancelled, stalling move

Usefulness: 2.5/5.


Other Attacks

Edge Attack
below 100: 2/3 damage,, tail hit, slow but good knockback, 2/5
Above 100: 4/5 damage longer tail hit, .5/5

Get up attack
4/2 (front/back), not enough range, 1.5/5

Damage/usefulness: 1.5/5 for below .5 for above

Grabs:

Front Grab

Damage: 16

Description: Yoshi sticks out his tongue, bad start up lag, moderate ending lag, low range, medium knockback

Usefulness: Not a move to spam, this is one of Yoshi's weakness's, his grab range is horrible and it is slow. For how quick and how long it is, it should be much more powerful. However, you can DJCC into a grab and Parry into a grab. If only it had better range…:-( 2.5/5, Can grab people if they attack on the edge

Back Grab

Damage: 14

Description: A backwards grab, similar to the forward grab, use which ever one faces the closer edge, does more knockback(?)

Usefulness: 2.5/5

IV: Advanced techniques
Short hop: lightly taping the C-stick (yellow one) in order to jump at a low height
Fast fall: Hitting the analog stick down hard to make it so you fall quicker
Z-cancel: Using z in order to get rid of all landing lag of an aerial
Shuffzed: Short hop, fast fall, Z-canceled aerials
DJC: Double Jump canceling, using a second jump while jumping (with an aerial or b move) in order to cut the jump and move quickly, only Yoshi and Ness can do this
DJCC: Double Jump Cancel Counter: Using the special properties of Yoshi's double jump to prevent knockback. You can use an aerial move afterwards
DJL: Double Jump Landing: Using a DJC but holding down causing Yoshi to "wavedash," not that useful but more as a mindgames tool
Shield Parry: Shielding right as a move hits to make it so Yoshi doesn't move. A form of power shielding but much more difficult to use.
Egg cancel: using an Egg before hitting the edge of the stage to cancel all lag, can be done multiple times quickly
Bomb dropping: using yoshi's down b to grab the ledge instantly, a form of stalling/recovery
Egg Dropping: using the egg lay move to cause someone to fall off the stage

V: THE UP TILT

VI: DJC Combos

VII: Closing comments
 

SheerMadness

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Good guide so far but

How is Yoshi bad vs Fox and Jiggly? Yoshi seems good vs both of them to me.
 
D

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Guest
Good guide so far but

How is Yoshi bad vs Fox and Jiggly? Yoshi seems good vs both of them to me.

Thats because you face bad foxes


In terms of the guide, F-tilt combos into Ground pound on some characters like Fox and such

Groundpound is a great finisher after a mid- percentage forward-air on a floaty to high percentage on a non-floaty.
 

SheerMadness

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Thats because you face bad foxes
Is your Fox bad? How bout Tigerbombz, Boom, Frogles, Vaxany, Near and all those guys. They have bad Foxes too? I don't play much but I've played all of them in the last 6 months I think.

Top of the line Foxes like Boom or Tigerbombz will usually beat me on Hyrule, mostly cause of the **** tent. On any other level I feel fairly even vs any Fox I've played recently.
 

MattNF

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Is your Fox bad? How bout Tigerbombz, Boom, Frogles, Vaxany, Near and all those guys. They have bad Foxes too? I don't play much but I've played all of them in the last 6 months I think.

Top of the line Foxes like Boom or Tigerbombz will usually beat me on Hyrule, mostly cause of the **** tent. On any other level I feel fairly even vs any Fox I've played recently.
I think you're just good against Fox.

I remember one time I p2p'd you and even my Link did better than my Fox against you.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
Good guide so far but

How is Yoshi bad vs Fox and Jiggly? Yoshi seems good vs both of them to me.
For Fox,

Fox is like 60-40 fox, fox laser camping works way too well vs Yoshi, Yoshi can combo really well though. Yoshi just gets overwhelmed. also, yoshi has a problem getting out of Fox's up air combos.

For Jigglypuff,

Jigglypuff can get out of every up tilt combos, the only way to win vs a jigglypuff is to overwhelm jigglypuff's shield with n-air, down air, and f-air, all of which can be punished. Jigglypuff has huge combos vs Yoshi regardless of DJCC....

Fox isn't super bad, its mostly Jigglypuff, Kirby, and a good Pikachu.

Update: Guide to be finished later tonight.

Also, why are you asking, I didn't even put matchups down yet
 
D

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Is your Fox bad? How bout Tigerbombz, Boom, Frogles, Vaxany, Near and all those guys. They have bad Foxes too? I don't play much but I've played all of them in the last 6 months I think.

Top of the line Foxes like Boom or Tigerbombz will usually beat me on Hyrule, mostly cause of the **** tent. On any other level I feel fairly even vs any Fox I've played recently.
I made no reference to me but

If you want you can face me now

Fox is probably my new best

Also I haven't faced you with Fox in the last 6 months. Just Falcon if you recall the horrible All is Brawl ladder.

Come to Cali and face me in person where theres no delay to make Fox crappier online


And if we're talking about matchups its not on how you fare against other people's foxes. It's only about the matchup only. You are probably more skilled than them or there is some online delay to account for that.


--
Drills don't hurt Yoshi's recovery unless the Yoshi people is a moron who choses to attack during his second jump rather than take the hits and make it back.

You can link hits with Yoshi-s up-tilt against Pika unlike Jiggly and maybe Kirby,

and neutral B egg I sometimes use it to turn around in the air similar to DK's Giant punch because their B-air is slightly better at approaching
 

SheerMadness

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Yah I'm definitely better vs Fox than Link.

As for Jiggly, DJC'ed nair and dash attacks setup very low % death spikes near the edge. Catch their shield with a fair and u should be able to break their shield everytime. Fair to upair and downb b lead to extremely low % kills. You can DI their drill then parry the uptilt fairly easy. You can also parry the rest if they just try to rest out of the drill instead of uptilt.

Basically Yoshi can rack up a lot of damage very easily on Jigglypuff. He also has extremely good killing options. I would say that Yoshi is pritty even with Jiggly.
 

Seala

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I havn't faced any really great Yoshis but I still feel jiggs has the upper hand in that matchup, even tho you can die from very low percentages Yoshi is easy as pie to combo for jiggly.
 
D

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Guest
Up-tilt isn't too great on Jiggly

I'd rather use f-tilt instead

A thing going for Yoshi is that double-jump spam usually gets you out of the forward throw -> up-airs -> (reverse pound or weak f-air) to Rest combo).

Yoshi has a very fast kill too with mid percentage forward-air to unavoidable ground pound and other crap. There's also the shield breaker combo f-air - n-air x2 (maybe 3 on jiggly) to down-smash.

If Jiggly lives to a too high percentage then to me, he is actually safer than at mid percentage.

From what I've seen from non ******** players that use Jiggly, rather than robotically going for an up-tilt after a drill, some simply grab, or if they DI behind you, turn around and grab. If they "parry" the grab and the grab goes through Yoshi, it's simply press grab again and now you have yoshi in your soft hands. If Yoshi tries to DI into Jiggly so hes in between her, Jigglypuff simply has to not L-cancel which will slightly pop up Yoshi for whatever you want to do. There's also very tiny landing lag for non L-canceled drill for Jiggly.

It's really hard to see who beats each other since both sides have a lot going for each other so I would say equal. Then again, my experiences aren't the best ever since my yoshi has already reached its skill ceiling and I'm not good at all with Jiggly
 

abit_rusty

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Dair -> ftilt is a pretty nice setup...totally unrelated to the vs jiggs discussion but it's on topic :)
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I see you put that up-tilt has set knockback. Just to let you know (you probably already knew :p ) down-tilt also has set knockback. This can be tested against a wall or with a second yoshi.

Imagine if a character were soo heavy that up-tilt comboed into up-tilt. There's an infinite right there :p And if they were to di off the stage, a forward air would do the trick :p

I just tried it out at 80% damage (makes characters heavier), and it does in fact work as an infinite on DK!

Edit:

You say in the down tilt section that it is the least useful "aerial". I'm pretty sure you meant tilt, but just letting you know :)
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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KORO#668
If I knew how to make GIF's id make a GIF of other yoshi techniques lulz

anyone know how to?
 

abit_rusty

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Would you guys say that congo jungle is a good stage for yoshi? I find the pass-through floor works really well for me, provided I don't ledge hop and attack through it often enough to be predictable.
 

asianaussie

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I swear some of these moves haven't got the right damage values for first hits. F-Smash gets 18% on a first hit, then weakens to 14, for example.

Otherwise great guide. You might want to mention that D-Tilt's low trajectory and short duration make it useful for edgeguarding against those with linear recoveries (D-Smash is a bit laggy and needs to be precisely timed).
 

Seala

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Yeah the d-tilt can give you some low percentage gimps on characters with a poor up b (link/falcon for example) because of it's set knockback
 
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