Editorial: Top Player Privilege Has To Stop

[m0ll0y]

Mango should come late more often , it really made it a fun tournament to watch , since the results were all screwed up . jk

 

[Matthew "Demo" Rak]

Is this real?

Has anyone even been to a tournament? Double elim, you're late for your set you lose THAT SET. Them being put into losers makes total sense and the fact that nobody could take them out just goes to show how solid they are.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

But....most TOs won't fully DQ people who made it into the pro bracket. People typically are given 20-25 minutes each unless they are like REALLY HOLDING UP THE BRACKET (which wasn't happening in this case becasue everything was BO5). I know when I run tournaments I never double DQ anyone unless they specifically tell me "I'm leaving" or "DQ me i don't want to play"

This instance isn't a pro-player privilege. It would've been a privilege if they got there and then suddenly the people who "beat" them in winners allowed them to replay their set, such as Sky giving that opportutnity to Dabuz at Apex, or even if the TOs FORCED it to happen. THAT would be pro-player privilege, not...getting punished for being late.

If it were anyone else at the TOP 32 of a NATIONAL, even if it were more unknown players like Matt or Rookie, MacD would've done the SAME THING because they deserved it. This wasn't Day 1 Pools, this wasn't Round 1 Doubles. It was the Top 32 bracket.

At least get upset about things that actually deserve to get upset about...

 

[Extremmefan]

....what?

In other words, if you were a TO, would you rather keep a good number of players (thus entertaining the viewers in the process), or would you disqualify half or a quarter of them because they're late?

 

[Gidy]

Tbh I think that all players should have a chance if they are late. 10 Minutes = match loss so after 20 minutes they lose the set. However with how late mang0 was it was unfair to have them in the bracket. I believe the same thing happened to ZeRo and he got an exception as well.

 

[Maple42]

"Imagine if this room were only filled with top players. It would be pretty empty."
That line killed my sides. I know what it means, but it's like saying, "If all the average players in this room were removed, almost all the players would be removed!" cx

 

[-LzR-]

In other words, if you were a TO, would you rather keep a good number of players (thus entertaining the viewers in the process), or would you disqualify half or a quarter of them because they're late?

As a TO I don't care about viewers, all that matters as a TO is getting the tournament to finish on time. Competitive Smash has been ruined by all this spectator sport bull****. I just want to play.

 

[Deleted member]

We're not even talking about 5-10 minutes here. It was 45 freaking minutes. Try showing up 45 minutes to a job interview, doctor's appointment, or dinner reservation. It doesn't work.

Nothing good ever comes from letting specific people bend the rules. Either you let everybody show up 45 minutes late or nobody. Period. You think people would have learned this by now considering all of the athletes and celebrities in the news who do whatever they want and receive nothing but a slap on the wrist, but no. The idiot fans will come to their defense anyway.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't doubt there must have been a good reason for showing up late, but reasons should not be excuses.

 

[dahuterschuter]

While the circumstances of their tardiness are unknown

Just want to note that mango explained in the interview what caused his lateness.

 

[PootisKonga]

If the policy is "You're late, you're DQed" then if you're late, you're DQed. I don't care whether it's the first time you're playing or if you're the second coming of some kind of Smash messiah, all should abide by the same rules in a tournament

 

[Extremmefan]

We're not even talking about 5-10 minutes here. It was 45 freaking minutes. Try showing up 45 minutes to a job interview, doctor's appointment, or dinner reservation. It doesn't work.

Nothing good ever comes from letting specific people bend the rules. Either you let everybody show up 45 minutes late or nobody. Period. You think people would have learned this by now considering all of the athletes and celebrities in the news who do whatever they want and receive nothing but a slap on the wrist, but no. The idiot fans will come to their defense anyway.

True, but what if it was out of the player's control? (like a car accident, for example. Or a sudden doctor appointment. Or a death in the family... I could go on for hours with such a list of possibilities.)

 

[Muster]

I honestly don't get what the big stink is about, the TO obviously understands at this point if he made a mistake. Should there be an editorial everyone somebody is accidentally DQ'd?

True, but what if it was out of the player's control? (like a car accident, for example. Or a sudden doctor appointment. Or a death in the family... I could go on for hours with such a list of possibilities.)

Apparently it was a combination of traffic, misremembering the start time for the tournament, and Visiting his mom. On mothers day.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I can't believe that nobody here made any distinction between 1st day bracket and the top 32 until esam did. You jeapordize the very thing you sought to create in the top 32 by dq'ing ppl outright. If they are holding up the bracket then you dq them from the set. Then when it comes to losers bracket the moment the TO wonders where that player is and can't find him with a simple look here and there, he is dq'd there. So the standard should be that they get a less leeway (ie time) to show up to their match in losers if they were dq'd from winners for that same reason, and the person he was supposed to face in losers should pressure the TO's to DQ him. And that should apply to everyone equally, of course.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I was tempted on this one to be honest, but I don't find its my place as a man to be talking about this kind of a womens issue and speaking for their gender. If she would like to write a guest editorial on sexism in the FGC and such I'd be happy to send it over to the editorial staff to have a look at it.

I second @ SpandexBullets 's assertion that this should be front-page material, so I hope Lilo responds and wants it posted. My girlfriend and I used to attend a local tourney scene together up until one of her opponents' friends sat behind her and razzed her all throughout her match ("You're not going to beat him, he's not going to lose to a girl.") She was the only woman to play at this scene, and the harassment she received strictly because of her gender was sickening - and it's not like it was done secretly, the guy was loud and the TO simply ignored it, commenting that "as long as he isn't touching her or directly interfering with her ability to play, he's fine."

Even though she toughed it out and made it to 6th place anyway (even 3-stocking the guy who sent me to losers' in my first round), she never should have had to deal with it in the first place, and she almost didn't even want the ribbon she was awarded because it came with such a sour memory. Neither of us attend those tourneys anymore.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Part of my brain tells me that Privilege is the wrong word but that's probably because Tumblr robbed it of all meaning.

Sucks though.

Still means the same thing in that context.

 

[Maple42]

I was tempted on this one to be honest, but I don't find its my place as a man to be talking about this kind of a womens issue and speaking for their gender. If she would like to write a guest editorial on sexism in the FGC and such I'd be happy to send it over to the editorial staff to have a look at it.

Honestly, as long as your intelligent about it, I would doubt you would offend anyone by doing so.

 

[Strong-Arm]

The smash community can be pretty toxic at times. At my local tourney Im typically seeded like 10 out of 28, but I started as nothing and worked for it. There are new people all the time and its really depressing to see them never come back because some ass hole mocked them. Ive gone to several tourneys and its extremely common, even if the player in question did well. Its the toxic mindset of "ONLY GOOD PLAYERS" are allowed that bothers me. Not all of us were day 1 amazing players. It took work, and dedication. We all start somewhere. So even calling these guys "average" is a little bit rude because everyone starts there. M2K, Mango, etc won't be around forever and by doing this we put off the players who could very well one day become the next best. we need to treat one another equally. Its basic morals.

 

[bec]

???
ive never sent someone completely out of bracket, nor seen it done, for not showing up to their match. i've always sent them to losers and given them the extra time to appear for their losers match.

 

[Mr. Brown]

Mang0 Nation Baby

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't have that much of a problem DQing to losers IF that is the policy for every players who happens to be late in Winners.

The only reason people are whining about "Top Player Privilege" is only top players were left then. It was a Top 32 bracket for a major in SoCal, the deepest Melee region (and it isn't close) next to the 2nd deepest region (NorCal). Over 80% of the field left is in the MIOM Top 100, and most of the players not on left then probably will be on the next list. 7 of the Top 9 (since PPMD is inactive) of the Top 10 active MIOM ranked players were present. On top of that, every player who got DQ'd got the same treatment (Hax, Mango, and S2J), so nobody got "special privileges" from MacD or the other TO's.

Additionally the 3 DQ'd players (S2J, HAx, and Mango) didn't hold up loser's when they were sent to loser's bracket. Winner's bracket had so many matches and so many BO5's that them not showing up wasn't a problem at all. Loser's bracket was still running faster than winner's bracket without them being there.

MacD additionally is known for punishing players with this indiscriminately, so to call this "top player privilege" is not just a false headline and argument, but slander against his name, as well as Hax's, Mango's, and S2J's names.

You can disagree with the whole "just sending them to loser's bracket for a DQ" premise @ LiteralGrill like many people do. That's all fine and dandy. What isn't fine and dandy is saying this is "top player privilege." Such a statement is ludicrous and deceiving to the readers here, most of whom know next to nothing as to how tournaments are run. @ LiteralGrill and the Smash World Forums writing staff, your exploitation of the general Smash World Forums readerships' ignorance is giving them false negative reception towards Hax, Mango, S2J, and especially MacD, which is very unfair to them, whether that was intentional or not.

 

[Shinyman337]

"Imagine if this room were only filled with top players. It would be pretty empty."
Yeah, whatever. Everyone who isn't SmashCapps would rather see high level gameplay rather than two low level players who got to the final rounds of the tournament only because the higher level players who they were SUPPOSED to play in bracket were booted for being late to their match. Remind me to never look at SmashCapps' articles ever again.

So you would rather wait 45+ minutes for a match when they could just be DQ'd and have players who actually care about the tournament play? Mang0, S2J, and Hax need to learn to respect the TOs, players, and even the spectators who stay up till 2:00 am to watch some events. They could have at least called a TO and tell them that they were going to be late, this just shows how they didn't care.

 

[Deleted member]

sorry but i dont agree with this at all.

when you pay your entry fee, you're paying for your shot to win at the prize money. you're not there to entertain the stream or to make a nice uniform bracket for the spectators or whatever other lame ass **** has becomes the status quo. they didn't show up at a match and they were given a loss, they were put into losers bracket exactly like they deserve, you don't DQ them from a match they're not late to because it "skews your bracket" or whatever other ****ty reason. mango had to win 10 sets at a tournament where no one else in the entire bracket won more than 5. the only people hurt by this were mango s2j and hax because they were stupid. i dont see any special treatment at all, and dont take away good placements from talented players that earned what they got.

 

[Johnknight1]

The question should probably be whether DQing to losers should ever be a policy, not this outrage over privilege (when it doesn't seem certain that anyone else was snubbed or treated unfairly for their own DQ situation at this tourney).

Yep, but people are too lazy to look at it that way. If this was an article about how players should be DQ'd straight out of the tournament, this article and the subsequent comments would actually hold their weight. But it's not; it's about top player privilege, which are articles that people always lazily write without much insight or knowledge.

But in that case, if you want to DQ them just to punish players harder, then you have to do it universally. If a TO screws up and shows unnecessary favoritism to someone once or punishes someone extra hard once, then they are no longer fair and balanced, and they will get rightfully barraged for their lack of fairness. That will thus result in less people wanting to go to your tournaments and players boycotting your tournaments. Quality tournament organizer groups will not want you involved with them. That's ultimately the main reason why the "automatic total DQ" rule is such a hard line to walk; the consequences are more severe for not just the players to show up, but for the TO's to be fair, otherwise the TO's could de facto lose their TO badge.

If you screw up in proper punishing players and handing out punishments when the stakes are higher and the punishments are greater, the punishment for failures or messing it up for TO's is very severe.

 

[Shinyman337]

True, but what if it was out of the player's control? (like a car accident, for example. Or a sudden doctor appointment. Or a death in the family... I could go on for hours with such a list of possibilities.)

If it was out of there control then they could have called a TO, MacD even said in his tweets that they didn't even tell him that they would be late.

 

[The 0ne]

Great job once again, @ LiteralGrill You've really started to branch out as an author. Although I can't say I'm not jealous because I wanted to get on the writing staff, but that's a different matter...

Anyway, I agree. Even if high-level players are good for views and hype, average players almost always have things to show the public that they haven't seen before, and therefore bring the hype as well. Ever thought about why they're low- or average-level players? Maybe because they try insanely cool but risky techniques, or maybe they use rarely-seen low-tier characters, or it could be that there is one thing that they are incredible at but suck at another important thing. They are, in my opinion, just as fun to watch as top players.

Even in Smash 4.

 

[Kero the Invincible]

Another thing to consider is, what kind of example are top players setting by being 45 minutes late in the first place?

An experienced tournament-goer should already know the importance of being on time for the tournament's time schedule. If they're making money off it, that's all the more reason for them to know better.

I know stuff can happen, but outside of a really good reason, they either didn't read the schedule, or assumed the rules didn't apply to them.

 

[JipC]

So noonee here stuck around for the mango interview? He was visiting his mom with the baby and got stuck in trafffic on the way back with hax and s2j. Alsso lolwtf at people wanting to dq players out of matches that havent actually been scheduled. Also dont tournies dont have a rule that goes ssomething like if a player is x minutes late to a set he forfeits that set, not the whole tourney? Also do people really have no leniancy with this **** now? Everyone always wants blood in this community over something

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah I think this is a really poorly worded/written article tbh, the issue here is the debate between whether a DQ should be full (both winner's and loser's) or based on how held up a bracket is (DQ'd from each set after allotted time since match was called has passed). That debate is multi-faceted and many prominent TOs and figures haven't even weighed in on the issue yet, there's no real conclusion on that to warrant anything more than an opinion/speculative or conversational article.

There's no top player privilege going on here, if that was the case they wouldn't have been DQ'd to begin with.

 

[StarLuigi★]

I'm probably going to get a flack or my opinion but what ever. calling this a privilege is just trying to blanket the real issue. The real issue at task is that to set the rules straight for everyone Good ,bad Or Casual who participates in tournaments. Because top players I wouldn't say have a privilege pushing buttons isn't actually a privilege it takes skill and practice to be at the top. just for an FYI. But for my closing opinion Just show up 20minutes early or something. Treat a tourney like a final Exam. There are outside circumstances were people are late for a good reason, but thats another story.

But that's just me though...

 

[Deleted member]

Another good thing about the "average player", is that, nobody is born an immediate pro, you have to get there, which means that even the likes of Mew2King/Zer0 started off as average players. It is through practice, patience, endurance, and determination that you become a "top player" (and this applies to everything, not just Smash).

 

[LiteralGrill]

So noonee here stuck around for the mango interview? He was visiting his mom with the baby and got stuck in trafffic on the way back with hax and s2j. Alsso lolwtf at people wanting to dq players out of matches that havent actually been scheduled. Also dont tournies dont have a rule that goes ssomething like if a player is x minutes late to a set he forfeits that set, not the whole tourney? Also do people really have no leniancy with this **** now? Everyone always wants blood in this community over something

Now, to be fair, sometimes mistakes do happen. There are all sorts of ways in which players can get tripped up or lose track of time.

I'd be cool with leniency as a TO personally IF I had any idea what was going on. There is a slim chance they knew no one at the tournament they could have contacted to say they werte late and the reasons, let alone take a minute to pop out a Tweet saying they were running late while apologizing.

You can disagree with the whole "just sending them to loser's bracket for a DQ" premise @ LiteralGrill like many people do. That's all fine and dandy. What isn't fine and dandy is saying this is "top player privilege." Such a statement is ludicrous and deceiving to the readers here, most of whom know next to nothing as to how tournaments are run.

Would any other players have been waited for 45 minutes before they worried about it holding up bracket? Be honest, the tournament is going on mid way and someone might not hold up bracket but makes things a little slower they would have been sent down to losers minimum in a matter of minutes. This is where is become more of an issue of privilege and less of an issue of logistics. They got special treatment where everyone else during the tournament wouldn't have.

It's not just about THIS tournament either. I linked to another example of this happening and there are plenty more if you go out and look. This kind of thing is common across many events, and this just seemed like the time to highlight it.

@ LiteralGrill and the Smash World Forums writing staff, your exploitation of the general Smash World Forums readerships' ignorance is giving them false negative reception towards Hax, Mango, S2J, and especially MacD, which is very unfair to them, whether that was intentional or not.

These are not the only players who have had similar things happen, however even they could have done better in this situation. As I just said above where was the phone call or a minimum Tweet on the situation? I don't want to slander them and say their intentions were to abuse the fact they are top to not get DQd, I even said accidents can happen. However they DID get different treatment than the average player, and it seems enough people find that sort of thing something that needs changing by the positive reception of the article not only here but on Twitter.

As for MacD, he does good work TOing no denying it. I even mentioned on Twitter myself how it was admirable they were at least sent to losers instead of just staying in winners which other tournaments may have and have done. If people take this article as me saying MacD is a bad TO that's not my intention either. This is more to raise discussion anjd discourse about an issue that happens often during a particularly notable time to discuss it.

There's no top player privilege going on here, if that was the case they wouldn't have been DQ'd to begin with.

For this one I just mentioned it as well, but what other point in bracket would people be waited on 45 minutes for a match?

 

[J.P]

Not even trying to be clever, but by showing up on time to me at least, shows those players had more of these qualities than their opponents. At a bare minimum, a tweet about being in traffic or trying to contact the TO should have happened.

While punctuality does count in a tournament, saying that if you are on time means you have more qualities than the ones who didn't is incorrect. The objective of the game is to take out all of your opponent's stocks and the way you do it determines who has more qualities. Also, we don't know who tried to contact the TO and therefore we can't judge how much they were interested.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure.

We don't need people who think top players should be given privileges that other players don't simply because people recognize them more so than others. Saying that these players are skilled so therefore are entitled to not be DQ'd is the kind of brand of stupidity you would see from a YT commenter.
When your argument is something among the lines of "top players are dedicated so their entitled to not be DQ'd", I don't think it's a good argument and quite frankly shouldn't even be taken seriously. If that came off as brash then I apologize.

Because we don't share the same opinion i'm stupid and "the community" doesn't need me... *sigh* kid nowadays. I'll try to explain my point in a more detailed way so people of your caliber can get it. I never said that they shouldn't be DQ'd but arriving late should only send you to losers bracket, like in every tourney I have attended to and if you still don't arrive after the losers bracket is over, sure you can DQ them for the entire tournament. And this doesn't only apply to Mang0, it also applies to most of the people who arrive late to a tourney (at least in my experience). I highly doubt you go to tournaments regularly so I don't think you knew this but most of them time that's how things worked (at least from what I have seen). Anyways I could elaborate more and more but instead I invite you to an actual discussion instead of you insulting me because you disagree with me.

Why should Mang0 be given special privileges just because he's Mang0?

No, because he is an amazing player that could make the skill of the overall tournament higher.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

For this one I just mentioned it as well, but what other point in bracket would people be waited on 45 minutes for a match?

For what it's worth, there was a doubles match that was delayed around 40 minutes so that Ashkon and Chroma could play, IIRC.

 

[Strong Badam]

For this one I just mentioned it as well, but what other point in bracket would people be waited on 45 minutes for a match?

You would generally wait the time a full set going to time would take before DQing someone, and since the entire top 32 was bo5, that would be 40 minutes (5 * 8 min), plus some time allotted for striking/counterpicking. It's fairly reasonable that you could wait 45 minutes before DQing someone from R1 of bracket in this scenario.

 

[90007000]

You're severely missing the point. Not all players are equal when it comes to skill in a game, but that's not what this article is bringing light to. Why should Mang0 be given special privileges just because he's Mang0? It really sets a bad example for other players and shows them that they can be incredibly late and not inform the TO of this and still be allowed to play in tourney. Now whether or not they should be disqualified entirely for this or not is a whole 'nother issue I feel, but players should be treated fairly all around as there is no justifiable reason that one lesser known player would have gotten severely punished for this kind of behavior while another known player gets away with it without penalty. That just isn't right. Show your true dedication and passion by showing up on time like everyone else.


More hype maybe, but undeserving if they couldn't bother to show up on time (45 minutes late, really?).

I'm so much better than those NOOB TOP PLAYERS! I only show up 1 hour late! Unlike their 45 minutes!

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Why don't they make it so all players get auto sent to losers instead of instant DQ? Though as a TO myself it feels disrespectful when players are anywhere more then 5 minutes late.

 

[Cobrevolution]

I was tempted on this one to be honest, but I don't find its my place as a man to be talking about this kind of a womens issue and speaking for their gender. If she would like to write a guest editorial on sexism in the FGC and such I'd be happy to send it over to the editorial staff to have a look at it.

men should be addressing the issues as well, not just women. you don't have to be the affected in a problem to write about it.

bit hypocritcal since, clearly, you've no problem commenting on the goings on at a tournament you weren't present at (having read the post detailing that mango and co were late because he wanted to see his mother for mother's day, which doesn't fall under "unknown circumstances").

it's necessary to deal with the gender issues in this community, and you shouldn't shy away from them because you're a male. that's silly.

and, to comment on a main point in the article - you can't pull out the "results are severely skewed" card. it works both ways. dq'ing top players to loser's means lesser skilled players will have less accurate lower results. dq'ing top players altogether means lesser skilled players will have less accurate higher results.

 

[Johnknight1]

Would any other players have been waited for 45 minutes before they worried about it holding up bracket? Be honest, the tournament is going on mid way and someone might not hold up bracket but makes things a little slower they would have been sent down to losers minimum in a matter of minutes. This is where is become more of an issue of privilege and less of an issue of logistics. They got special treatment where everyone else during the tournament wouldn't have.

They got DQ'd to losers in top 32, in which everyone was starting in Winner's. There were 16 matches needed to be played in Winner's before Loser's could even finish a round, and those matches were a bit over halfway done when Hax, Mango, and S2J arrived. Mango's first round loser's opponent hadn't even started his Winner's set before Mango arrived. Hax's eventual Round 1 Loser's opponent had just finished losing his Round 1 Winner's Set at the very worst IIRC.

Additionally Top 32 matches were played on about 4-6 setups according to a friend of mine at the event (so that way spectators could view them all, and why roughly half of the top 32 sets were on stream). They were all Best of 5 sets too, so they took on average about 15-20 minutes. The second Round of Winner's was far from starting. The tournament additionally finished 20 minutes early, so they didn't hold things up enough to be late.

MacD ALWAYS HAS DQ's straight to loser's, so calling for those 3 to be DQ'd straight out of the tournament isn't "righting top player privilege," it is "punishing top players for being top players." So what you are asking for is the opposite of equality.

Unless MacD announced a rule change in how his DQ'ing policy works, he would be treating them less fairly than other players. Unless he informed everyone of that or those Hax, Mango, and/or S2J held up loser's bracket like how they held up Winner's Bracket to warrant a DQ, that simply isn't the right call in this case.

It's not just about THIS tournament either. I linked to another example of this happening and there are plenty more if you go out and look. This kind of thing is common across many events, and this just seemed like the time to highlight it.

Then talk about those tournaments instead. There's plenty of examples of that which I can think of (mostly involving M2K lol). Use those examples. Heck, just what 2 or 3 weekeneds ago, the people running MVG Sandstorm let Mew2King and Axe, two MVG sponsored players, enter more than the maximum allowed events (3; they both entered at least 4 if I recall correctly) as stated by the rules. That's top player privilege (or sponsors letting their players be above the rules depending upon how you interpret it).

These are not the only players who have had similar things happen, however even they could have done better in this situation. As I just said above where was the phone call or a minimum Tweet on the situation? I don't want to slander them and say their intentions were to abuse the fact they are top to not get DQd, I even said accidents can happen. However they DID get different treatment than the average player, and it seems enough people find that sort of thing something that needs changing by the positive reception of the article not only here but on Twitter.

Of course they could have done better in the situation, and that's fine to cover. But to say they're getting preferential treatment is a false narrative.

And there was no "proof" they got special treatment, because, again, they didn't hold up Loser's Bracket, the tournament was well ahead of time, and IIRC at least Mango couldn't even play a Loser's bracket match yet.

As for MacD, he does good work TOing no denying it. I even mentioned on Twitter myself how it was admirable they were at least sent to losers instead of just staying in winners which other tournaments may have and have done. If people take this article as me saying MacD is a bad TO that's not my intention either. This is more to raise discussion and discourse about an issue that happens often during a particularly notable time to discuss it.

Then why do all the comments say "treat players fairly" and imply that there was a poor job done in treating players equally across the board.

For this one I just mentioned it as well, but what other point in bracket would people be waited on 45 minutes for a match?

Again, they got DQ'd from winner's, which they were holding up. They got the usual punishment, so they couldn't hold up winner's. There's substantial proof they didn't hold up losers, as Winner's Round 1 was far from over thanks to the BO5 setup.

If there was proof Loser's Round 1 was being held up, then you'd have an argument, but I haven't seen or heard any.