Editoral: A Smashing Debate, Part 1

Two or three stocks? Customs on or off? Miis legal or not? Is Halberd still viable? These hot topics have haunted the Smash community ever since the game released. Will there ever be an agreement? Who knows; what is for sure is that here at Smashboards we want to give our opinions.

Here is where the Smashing Debate comes to life. Through the next weeks we're going to publish parts of this series discussing the issues that attack our stability as a community. And, as part of the #MiiWiik, we're starting right off with the topic that has generated the most debate lately: Mii Legality.

WARNING
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If you suffer from attacks of rage, saltiness, or if you dislike hearing other people's opinions, this series of articles may provoke serious anger and loss of friends. You have been warned.

Let's get started.

The Issue
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The key to understanding this problem is knowing how matchups (MUs) work. Players compare one character's strengths to another's and pinpoint who struggles against who. Miis require a major level of understanding, as they can be created to be anything from paper-thin and 8 feet tall to a ball-round, 3-foot character. These factors obviously make the abilities of the character fluctuate and gives Miis a plethora of variability in combo and damage potential, defense and other stats. Now, these factors, combined with the already wide potential combinations with customs, creates a problem.

The Perspectives​

"All Miis Matter": Miis should be completely legal - all 27 combinations - but players should still be limited to using the standard, pre-installed Miis of medium sizes. The alternative Special Moves can't be considered "customs" or equals to other characters' customs because they are already unlocked and present totally different moves, instead of just some changes in damage, speed, and one or two effects.

Supports: All combinations allowed, medium sizes.

1111: Miis should be legal, but limited to their 1111 moveset. The ability to use all Miis creates some over-powered combinations and there's no way to control it as they are basically 81 different characters. This choice saves tournament organizers (TOs) a lot of work, and the 1111 setup is fairly balanced. With 81 different movesets, the MUs multiply and players have a lot of difficulty knowing how all of them work.

Supports: 1111 setups for all styles, medium sizes.

Our Opinions​

We brought in two of our writers to give their points of view on the subject.

Nova​

This is just an opinion, but I think there's ZERO reason to limit the movesets of 3 whole characters. Their move variations do not change how their matchups are played, just the options they have in certain situations. Almost all the arguments in favor of the ban translate to "I don't know the matchup, and I don't want to know" (Disclaimer: Almost all of them.)

I understand that having the option to counterpick moves is a huge advantages, but that can be solved by banning just that. One option that some tournaments commonly use is to let the Mii player choose any combination of moves, but limit them to one combination per set. That's one. There's also another more extreme option: decide on an "ultimate" moveset, and after it's decided, there's no going back.

While this may seem horrible, it's a lot better than just sticking to 1111, which is the main reason Mii mains are non-existent. Besides, even if the unthinkable happens and we allow Miis to use all their moves, counterpick or not, they'll still be standard size so you don't need to learn combo and kill percentages for all the variations, just one.

Finally, let me ask you something: how many Mii mains do you honestly expect to face in your bracket? If you don't drown in pools, you'll be lucky to face more than two. And even if you do, you can pretty much counterpick Sheik and win (provided that you can, in fact, press buttons). So, why do we keep banning three potential characters that can be viable just for some problems that can be solved easily? We lose virtually nothing and gain a lot just by letting them free of their chains. I'll let you decide which is better.

OniKirby​

The magic number, 1111. Many think that this number solves everything. For some, it does.

To me, there's no thing as an over-powered character; even Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight. You can, after all, defeat a Melee Fox with Kirby; you can, after all, defeat a Brawl Meta Knight with Ganondorf. Let's just say that "it's not the bow, it's the archer". It does not matter if you have a great character in your hands, if you have no hands.

Miis are just more versatile than other characters, and alternative moves do not change the MUs entirely; special moves are just 33% of a character's moveset. Characters in Smash are made to represent their home game. Miis are a way to represent yourself by changing aspects of your creation, moving and switching. In the end, a Mii should reflect you, and not your limitations.

Cutting aside 26 combinations from a character is reducing to a minimum what the character is. It's like playing Fox only using lasers, or playing Ryu with only the light version of his attacks. The alternative moves are made to change your style, and reflect how you like to play. Let's think for a second. By banning customs, normal characters lose their ability to select non-1111 variations. Mii Fighters' movesets cannot be considered "customs" in the same sense: by banning them they are losing what makes them interesting characters.

I'm aware of organizing issues, and they are real. Still, the game can keep 99 Mii Fighters, enough so that all 81 combinations are available on the console using the 3DS-to-Console method.

Conclusion​

We agree that Miis should be legal in some way, but not just 1111, as this restricts a player's options. In the end, we want to know your opinion! Let us know what you think about this topic, and stay tuned for the next part of the Smashing Debate.

 

I also want to point out that "complexity" and "memorization" are two different and I would even say mutually exclusive things. More plain surface level information to just read and remember is not what gives Smash or any game depth or complexity. Because once you know that then that's it, that is all it can take you. Applying information through the mechanics and through big picture gameplay dealing with reads and conditioning and mindgames are what give depth. Giving just more information to memorize just prolongs people reaching that level of true depth. This amount of information to memorize with this roster is why we see so many inconsistency and upsets in tournament. Because there's so much to discover that you can be totally overthrown by some new technique or strategy not because you aren't good enough to deal with it but just because you've never seen it before. More information =/= more depth.

 

The argument that Diosdi gave has changed my mind about miis.
Every character in this game is meant to represent the games they come from. Ryu with SF inputs, movesets imitate attacks from games.
Miis are so well known as being fully customizable while still having their own style, and their design in this game reflects that. Why else would all "custom moves" be already unlocked?

I think that either 1111 moveset, and customizable sizes
Or Mii players work together to pick 5 or so setups for each mii type.

That argument alone made me change my mind. Previously I was of the opinion that it'd be 1111 or banned.

 

Complexity is about the interrelationship of many parts, and it's different from depth. Depth can be achieved via simple or complex means, and the concept of depth is more subjective than the concepts of simplicity vs. complexity. That is, you can look at a system and use objective measures to compare the complexity of that system with another. I can't think of any objective way to measure depth.

Adding an additional character undoubtedly adds some complexity to a meta simply because it's adding another subsystem with unique interactions with other susbystems, and the supersystem itself.

But I'll agree that complexity isn't always good, or fun. I argue for complexity in Smash 4's case because I love the sheer diversity of character metas the game has to offer, and am fascinated by how character metas interact with one another. I like the idea of a malleable character, and am interested to see how that behaves with a roster of set characters.

 

Alondite yeah let's just use Sheik only on SV. /s

I would like you to explain what you mean with "improve competition in any meaningful way".

Competition is a contest of skill, and video games are a medium defined by organic interaction. Memorizing data, while required for playing the game, isn't actually playing the game. Regardless of your knowledge, you still need to be able to execute. Because Smash Bros is a game designed heavily around concrete, organic interaction and not abstractions, execution is the heart of competition.

I wouldn't call it needless as all. As for being forced to memorize more crap, well, this game has a HUGE roster, and it makes for a lot of memorization as it is. If we wanted to restrict how much players needed to memorize, we could simply ban half the roster and make the game much simpler. But simplicity isn't the point of smash 4. Sheer breadth and complexity is one of this game's greatest appeals. Unrestricted Miis add to the STRENGTH of smash 4.

If people want small rosters with little to memorize, there is Smash 64, or if they want a middle ground, there is Melee and PM. One of Smash 4's best qualities is its roster, and I welcome the variety that Miis can bring.

Banning half the roster is not the same, because when you fight a character, you know what you're getting and can plan accordingly. With custom specials, there's an element of uncertainty that prevents you from making informed decisions until you've learned what customs your opponent is running. Learning is inherent to video games, but in this case, it doesn't add anything worthwhile. It's just a barrier that delays your attempts to fully and knowingly engage with the system. Complexity should be minimized as much as possible without sacrificing depth, and custom specials add no depth.

And Smash isn't great because of its complexities, it's great because of its deep, dynamic gameplay.

Not being rude but what I bolded makes you look bad. If you want to play casual then do it, nobody is stopping you from making your rules with your friends. If however you want to be in tournaments you can't think like that because it comes off really scrubby. Don't put something like that as reasoning.

Needless complexity makes it worse for competition moreso than it does for casual play. Complexities become simplified, and often made redundant. Memorization is also not a meaningful skill in video games, because no amount of knowledge can compensate from an inability to physically execute; a more fundamentally sound player will almost always beat a less-skilled, but more knowledgeable player. Competitive gaming is about learning about and outperforming your opponent, not learning pointless last-minute variables about the game.

So don't put something like that, because it makes you look like you don't understand game design, gameplay, the human mind, or the nature of competition.

Complexity is about the interrelationship of many parts, and it's different from depth. Depth can be achieved via simple or complex means, and the concept of depth is more subjective than the concepts of simplicity vs. complexity. That is, you can look at a system and use objective measures to compare the complexity of that system with another. I can't think of any objective way to measure depth.

Adding an additional character undoubtedly adds some complexity to a meta simply because it's adding another subsystem with unique interactions with other susbystems, and the supersystem itself.

But I'll agree that complexity isn't always good, or fun. I argue for complexity in Smash 4's case because I love the sheer diversity of character metas the game has to offer, and am fascinated by how character metas interact with one another. I like the idea of a malleable character, and am interested to see how that behaves with a roster of set characters.

No, complexity is simply the amount of stuff the player is forced to know before they can interact with the game on a meaningful level. Depth is a result of interplay, and -can- in fact be measured objectively. For example, the Koopa Paratroopa in Super Mario Bros. has 7 unique layers of depth. Depth represents the "meaning" of a work, and in video games, that meaning comes from interaction.

Complexity can be good, though is more often bad. The reason, though, that complexity in the form of, say, Smash 4's large cast isn't detrimental, but complexity in the form of variable custom specials is, is because one is fixed and is known going into the match, and the other is not.

Knowing what your opponent functionally can or can't do is a huge part of competition, because it determines what actions you take. However with custom specials, you don't know what an opponent can or can't do until they actually do it. Until you learn that information, you can't engage fully with your opponent or the game system. It delays actual competition and forces players to learn things that should already be known going into the match.

 

Alondite (and everyone else who's posted on this subject, for that matter)

Simply put, complexity is the amount of systems there are in the game (e.g. a special move adds complexity, as does an attribute of a character, a stage's platform, etc) and how many facets there are to their behavior (which includes direct, hard-coded interactions with other systems, e.g. two moves clashing or one projectile canceling out another, or even a character being able to stand on the aforementioned platform). Things that you have to memorize about the game itself will in most cases fall under this category.

Depth comes directly from complexity; it's the amount of meaningful choices, strategies, and whatnot that come from those systems. For example, the choice to choose between a risky, powerful move, or a safe, but less damaging move? That's an example of depth. Memorization is still present in terms of depth, but it's more about knowing strategies, whether it be from studying the set itself for a while and coming up with some, or learning your opponent's playstyle mid-match to make reads.

Complexity is not necessarily a bad thing – a certain amount of it is indeed crucial (otherwise you couldn't even jump in Mario). However, the less complexity you can get away with while maximizing depth, the better. After all, a game that's too complex fails to be accessible, and is overall a worse experience than a simpler game (assuming an unchanged amount of depth, and consistency in any other variables). And yes, Alondite, unnecessary complexity isn't a good thing at all... But Mii customs aren't that.

In terms of Mii customs, complexity is the eight special moves you have to memorize. ...It's really not that hard. If you can memorize the properties of 50+ characters and all their specials (let alone standards), surely you can remember the basic functionality of eight additional, in fact rather simple (not complex) moves. And if you can't remember which is which (2321, for example; I can't either tbh : p), you could just ask the Mii player. Tournaments could also easily have a rule for this if need be, although I doubt it will become a problem.

Depth, then, is the options and strategies that these moves bring about. There's a lot of them. Some moves admittedly moreso than others, but moves like Chakram, Feint Jump, Ultimate Uppercut, Bomb Drop, Grenade Launch, etc add new options and strategies and potential playstyles to the Miis (and thus more depth). Customs also make Miis more viable overall, which in a way adds options and choices too – in that it's now a viable option to use Miis in competitive play without being hindered by the default moveset.

Lots of depth, not a lot of complexity, no harm to game balance, little to no logistics issues. Seems like a good choice to me.

 

A few things here are a bit short-sighted and poorly-reasoned. Responses in bold.

Alondite (and everyone else who's posted on this subject, for that matter)

Simply put, complexity is the amount of systems there are in the game (e.g. a special move adds complexity, as does an attribute of a character, a stage's platform, etc) and how many facets there are to their behavior (which includes direct, hard-coded interactions with other systems, e.g. two moves clashing or one projectile canceling out another, or even a character being able to stand on the aforementioned platform). Things that you have to memorize about the game itself will in most cases fall under this category.

This is all correct.

Depth comes directly from complexity; it's the amount of meaningful choices, strategies, and whatnot that come from those systems. For example, the choice to choose between a risky, powerful move, or a safe, but less damaging move? That's an example of depth. Memorization is still present in terms of depth, but it's more about knowing strategies, whether it be from studying the set itself for a while and coming up with some, or learning your opponent's playstyle mid-match to make reads.

This is only partly correct.

"Depth comes directly from complexity; it's the amount of meaningful choices, strategies, and whatnot that come from those systems."

This is the part that is not correct, which is odd because your example is correct. Either your definition of "depth" is too vague, or you really don't understand the concept in general.

This is a far better definition of depth taken from Critical-Gaming.com:

"Gameplay depth/meaning mainly revolves around interplay. Because games are interactive systems with goals or goal like objectives, every action and situation can be evaluated according to how well it achieves victory. In other words, the meaning of gameplay comes from goal seeking interactivity. So the question is, how do we get the most meaning out of our gameplay experiences? How do we give the player agency in a context that is meaningful? What is meaningful in gameplay? The simple answer is overcoming challenges in skill-based games. When it's easier to lose than win, players have to exert effort to win. To leverage one's effort, players focus and use their skills to seek victory."

The latter portion is the most important for our purposes.

Complexity is not necessarily a bad thing – a certain amount of it is indeed crucial (otherwise you couldn't even jump in Mario). However, the less complexity you can get away with while maximizing depth, the better. After all, a game that's too complex fails to be accessible, and is overall a worse experience than a simpler game (assuming an unchanged amount of depth, and consistency in any other variables). And yes, Alondite, unnecessary complexity isn't a good thing at all... But Mii customs aren't that.

Mii customs aren't bad because they add complexity. Well, that's true to an extent, but that's not the primary reason. The reason why allowing any combination of Mii specials is bad is because it brings unknown game information into the match. A player cannot make informed decisions until they have seen all of their opponents specials. That's fine in a game like Starcraft, but Smash Bros is a wildly different game with different mechanics and interactive goals. A player needs to know all of an opponents options that are functionally possible at any given time in order for options to have meaning (i.e. meaningful decision-making).

In terms of Mii customs, complexity is the eight special moves you have to memorize. ...It's really not that hard. If you can memorize the properties of 50+ characters and all their specials (let alone standards), surely you can remember the basic functionality of eight additional, in fact rather simple (not complex) moves. And if you can't remember which is which (2321, for example; I can't either tbh : p), you could just ask the Mii player. Tournaments could also easily have a rule for this if need be, although I doubt it will become a problem.

As I said, the issue isn't memorizing specials, it's the not knowing which specials they brought into the match. How can a player develop a strategy or make informed decisions if they don't know what an opponent can do?

Depth, then, is the options and strategies that these moves bring about. There's a lot of them. Some moves admittedly moreso than others, but moves like Chakram, Feint Jump, Ultimate Uppercut, Bomb Drop, Grenade Launch, etc add new options and strategies and potential playstyles to the Miis (and thus more depth). Customs also make Miis more viable overall, which in a way adds options and choices too – in that it's now a viable option to use Miis in competitive play without being hindered by the default moveset.

And again, that's not what depth is. Depth is the meaning of the interaction, defined by the goals of the system.

Lots of depth, not a lot of complexity, no harm to game balance, little to no logistics issues. Seems like a good choice to me.

You failed to address the real issue here. You also failed to acknowledge the inevitability of certain special sets making all others obsolete in the same way that certain characters or strategies rise to the top of the metagame.

 

Alondite was prepared to write more but you totally missed everything and seem to be saying the same thing to each person you quoted. In all video games you do need to memorize a lot. While it may come easy once you learned it like say how to do a PP at one point the player had to practice and memorize the motion and now can pull it off flawlessly. Even your fundamentally sound player has to learn and memorize the fundamentals. As for your pointless last minute variables, well they are always present in a game. It is what makes everyone unique. That's why there are mix ups. You can't just always do normal getup from the ledge. There is roll, jump, and 2 attack options aka variables.

 

It is trivial to simply require Mii players to disclose their movesets. Hell, you can demand they be in the Miis name.

We shouldn't be banning a character's signature element over something solved this easily.

 

A few things here are a bit short-sighted and poorly-reasoned. Responses in bold.

This is only partly correct.

"Depth comes directly from complexity; it's the amount of meaningful choices, strategies, and whatnot that come from those systems."

This is the part that is not correct, which is odd because your example is correct. Either your definition of "depth" is too vague, or you really don't understand the concept in general.

This is a far better definition of depth taken from Critical-Gaming.com:

"Gameplay depth/meaning mainly revolves around interplay. Because games are interactive systems with goals or goal like objectives, every action and situation can be evaluated according to how well it achieves victory. In other words, the meaning of gameplay comes from goal seeking interactivity. So the question is, how do we get the most meaning out of our gameplay experiences? How do we give the player agency in a context that is meaningful? What is meaningful in gameplay? The simple answer is overcoming challenges in skill-based games. When it's easier to lose than win, players have to exert effort to win. To leverage one's effort, players focus and use their skills to seek victory."

The latter portion is the most important for our purposes.

...Except that quote appears to be referring to single-player games. From that same article:

"We think of depth a bit differently for multiplayer games, which tend to be more open. When most say that a multiplayer game is deep they mean that the gameplay is of interesting choices."

...which is what I said.

(I'd argue that the above is true even in a single-player game, and that the last three lines of the definition you quoted aren't entirely accurate, but that's getting quite off-topic.)

Mii customs aren't bad because they add complexity. Well, that's true to an extent, but that's not the primary reason. The reason why allowing any combination of Mii specials is bad is because it brings unknown game information into the match. A player cannot make informed decisions until they have seen all of their opponents specials. That's fine in a game like Starcraft, but Smash Bros is a wildly different game with different mechanics and interactive goals. A player needs to know all of an opponents options that are functionally possible at any given time in order for options to have meaning (i.e. meaningful decision-making).

As I said, the issue isn't memorizing specials, it's the not knowing which specials they brought into the match. How can a player develop a strategy or make informed decisions if they don't know what an opponent can do?

I addressed this. Just ask the Mii player. (Or if it somehow really becomes a problem, put some rule in place regarding this.)

You failed to address the real issue here.

No, I'm pretty sure I did. (see above)

You also failed to acknowledge the inevitability of certain special sets making all others obsolete in the same way that certain characters or strategies rise to the top of the metagame.

And? The other option (1111 only) limits them to only one set anyway, it's not like the scenario that you described would make the situation any worse (much better, in fact).

(By the by, I recommend replying to posts with different segments -- like this one -- by closing the quote, putting your reply, and then starting the quote again, just easier to reply to )

 

...Except that quote appears to be referring to single-player games. From that same article:

"We think of depth a bit differently for multiplayer games, which tend to be more open. When most say that a multiplayer game is deep they mean that the gameplay is of interesting choices."

...which is what I said.

(I'd argue that the above is true even in a single-player game, and that the last three lines of the definition you quoted aren't entirely accurate, but that's getting quite off-topic.)

Perhaps you should have read the page that "interesting choices" links to in your very own quote. It covers this whole concept quite clearly.

And the final lines are perfectly accurate. The meaning of a video comes solely from overcoming challenges (whether they be single-player elements of contrary motion or other players), because the outcome can be measured against the goals of the system, thus giving it meaning because it either contributes toward achieving that goal, or it moves you backward.

I addressed this. Just ask the Mii player. (Or if it somehow really becomes a problem, put some rule in place regarding this.)

No, I'm pretty sure I did. (see above)

And? The other option (1111 only) limits them to only one set anyway, it's not like the scenario that you described would make the situation any worse (much better, in fact).

And what reason does the Mii player have to tell you?

More importantly, why are we drawing an arbitrary line at Mii fighter customs? Almost the entire cast has multiple custom specials, so why allow a special case for Mii fighters? But not every character has customs, so what do we do about that? This whole scenario is just drawing random lines in the sand as opposed to making well-reasoned rule sets.

Limiting characters to one set creates consistency, which is good for both gameplay and competition.

 

Perhaps you should have read the page that "interesting choices" links to in your very own quote. It covers this whole concept quite clearly.

Okay... so how exactly does it contradict what I said?

And the final lines are perfectly accurate. The meaning of a video comes solely from overcoming challenges (whether they be single-player elements of contrary motion or other players), because the outcome can be measured against the goals of the system, thus giving it meaning because it either contributes toward achieving that goal, or it moves you backward.

Yes, but it doesn't entirely define depth, or rather cover all of what it can be. I'm not entirely sure what he's trying to say there, but I can say that overcoming challenges isn't all there is to depth – rather, it's how you accomplish those goals, and the choices you use and the strategies you employ along the way.

Then again, I may just be misinterpreting the quote.

And what reason does the Mii player have to tell you?

In the interest of fairness, sportsmanship... or following the rules of the tournament if a rule regarding the matter is put into place (which is rather likely if Mii moves are legalized, and easy for the TO to do).

More importantly, why are we drawing an arbitrary line at Mii fighter customs? Almost the entire cast has multiple custom specials, so why allow a special case for Mii fighters? But not every character has customs, so what do we do about that? This whole scenario is just drawing random lines in the sand as opposed to making well-reasoned rule sets.

The game draws the line between Mii customs and those of other characters: one can be used with customs turned off, and the other cannot. Thus, it is reasonable to separate them into two groups, and examine them as separate cases to determine tournament viability. Customs have the issues of logistics, adding too much complexity to the game, and some of them being detrimental to the game balance. These issues do not exist with Miis and their custom moves. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to ban customs and allow Mii moves, under the simple rule of "customs turned off." It's more convenient than arbitrary – the game has a built-in setting to turn on customs which work for tournaments, and turn off ones which don't work for tournaments. It's almost like a switch to turn off non-tourney-legal stages. But I digress.

Limiting characters to one set creates consistency, which is good for both gameplay and competition.

A big part of Smash Bros. is adaptation – to playstyles, to stages, to matchups, to situations. It's a crucial skill in order to succeed, and many players obviously already have it. Adding Mii moves into the mix has two interesting side effects in regard to this aspect of Smash. Firstly, it puts those adaptation skills to the test, but on a whole new and really intriguing level – putting skills to the test is a crucial part of competition, no? The other effect is that it makes Miis more viable, by not only giving them moves that are straight-up better i.e. Helicopter Kick, but also giving them that "adaptation factor," able to cover up their weaknesses at least partially with their inconsistency, the fact that you won't always know how the Mii will act. While they may be weak in terms of damage, range, and whatnot, the unpredictability of Miis gives them an edge over their competition. It's a really cool, unique dynamic about Miis that adds even more variety to the roster and improves the game balance, which I see as quite beneficial to gameplay. Shulk has his Monado Arts to help him adapt to any matchup, Rosalina has her Luma to create tricky situations for her opponent, and the Miis have their customs to keep opponents on their toes.

Of course, if customs were on for all fighters, then not only would things like say, Heavy Skull Bash and whatnot upset the game's balance and core dynamic, but it'd also make the game too inconsistent, as there would be no consistent movesets at all. As you said, too much inconsistency can harm the game, no doubt about that – but I don't think that Miis are going to affect the game in any major way that would risk reaching that point of "too much" inconsistency.

 

And what reason does the Mii player have to tell you?

I give up.

 

Perhaps you should have read the page that "interesting choices" links to in your very own quote. It covers this whole concept quite clearly.

And what reason does the Mii player have to tell you?

Potential disqualification by a TO who set a rule that requires it.

 

StripedNinja
Oh, so basically you're just really bad at explaining your arguments. My bad, I can understand that. (to be clear, no, this is not sarcasm).

I apologize for being a little harsh in tone, I could have explained it more civilly. I admit I was a little fed up with all of these people coming up with poor excuses to unfairly ban someone's character.

My point with miis taking long was that they take EQUAL to the amount of time as any other custom set, so if you use that as a point that Miis should be legal you have to also be arguing for all customs and thus you are making special exception for Miis, which I don't agree

Now to address your actual argument, now that I grasp it, you inexplicably put "Mii specials take time to choose" (even though this argument is already proven debunk, as an aside, an additional 30 seconds here and there means absolutely nothing), to lead into "we should allow all customs"

What I don't understand about your logic is how "takes time" = "allowing all customs" I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me.

Now I've gone over this a few times. I THINK what you mean is "giving players additional time to choose Mii specials" = "making an unfair exception for Miis" therefore "we should just make all customs legal so no one feels left out" even though this isn't the problem.

I think your whole argument against Miis is based on the idea that "it would be giving them special treatment" and you feel that this would be "unfair". Am I correct?

If this is the case, though it may not be, you are looking at the entire issue from an entirely wrong perspective. Which clears things up, to be honest.

It would not be unfair to any other character, because you are not doing the same thing to Miis as you could be to others. You are banning the other characters from using custom moves. On the other hand, with Mii Fighters, you are banning some whole characters, as they play sometimes drastically different based on the moveset chosen.
Mii specials are NOT custom moves. So they are obviously treated differently than custom moves.
This has already been proven multiple times by the game itself, from allowing them when customs are off, to allowing them in a seperate case in another mode.

Please, prove to me how they are customs, other than "They're in the same menu screen".
They also have their own option in the menu, separate from customizing fighters, let me remind everyone. (Yet more evidence that Mii specials are quite a different thing than custom moves). So that's out.

Prove to me how they are customs, or stop acting as if they are. I will respect your opinion, but I won't respect something made-up based on nothing. That's unreasonable.

I'll say it again, Mii specials are not custom moves. They are not "alternate versions of a move" they are completely different moves.

If we ban customs, we ban slightly changed moves. If we ban Mii specials, we ban characters.

So again, you're not making any sense when you say it's unfair. It's unfair to ban characters for no reason, wouldn't you say?

 

And what reason does the Mii player have to tell you?

Do correct me if I'm wrong, honestly, but this really feels like what a lot of your argument comes down to. You do not trust Mii mains, for some reason. As if they were sneaking around trying to hide something.
Why do you feel this way, if you do?

More importantly, why are we drawing an arbitrary line at Mii fighter customs? Almost the entire cast has multiple custom specials, so why allow a special case for Mii fighters? But not every character has customs, so what do we do about that? This whole scenario is just drawing random lines in the sand as opposed to making well-reasoned rule sets.

Limiting characters to one set creates consistency, which is good for both gameplay and competition.

See, but you're not limiting custom moves. Again, as proven multiple times by the game itself, Mii specials are not custom moves. They are entirely different moves, unlike every other custom move in the entire game except Palutena's. (But she needs customs on, showing hers are custom moves, but I'm going off track).
Again, when you ban customs you are banning slightly altered moves. When you ban Mii specials you are banning characters. That's why it's unfair. And that's what it really comes down to.

 

VPTurnip

Mii specials are custom moves – they're moves that you customize.

Either way, though, semantics are no reason to ban things, or to not ban things. What is a reason to differentiate between Mii moves and customs, however, is the fact that the custom moves of other fighters present issues which are not present with those of Miis. As I stated in an earlier post:

The game draws the line between Mii customs and those of other characters: one can be used with customs turned off, and the other cannot. Thus, it is reasonable to separate them into two groups, and examine them as separate cases to determine tournament viability. Customs have the issues of logistics, adding too much complexity to the game, and some of them being detrimental to the game balance. These issues do not exist with Miis and their custom moves. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to ban customs and allow Mii moves, under the simple rule of "customs turned off." It's more convenient than arbitrary – the game has a built-in setting to turn on customs which work for tournaments, and turn off ones which don't work for tournaments. It's almost like a switch to turn off non-tourney-legal stages. But I digress.

I agree with your stance, but not your reasoning.

 

Munomario777
Yeah, okay, but my main point was that they're different from all other custom moves, which we agree on. What word we use to describe it isn't very important lol.

Now, I'd like to point out this argument, it's an okay argument, however, it does contain some flaws: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1socre1
Specifically the part on Rosalina and Luma's custom.
See, he takes Rosa's custom Floaty Star Bit, and uses it to make the case that Rosalina and Luma would be a different character if they had access to it.
I agree, she would be. I also agree that with their customs on, many characters would have different options.
Would they be altogether different characters? I don't think so, however, I am not knowledgeable enough on every character and the application of every custom move to be certain. In any case, I actually think we should make progress to allow some custom moves in a viable and intelligent way in the future, so I'll move on from that.

Edited.
Actually, I'll just link to erico9001's post. It makes complete sense.
erico9001's post.

 

See, the whole time I've been arguing this from the perspective that customs shouldn't be legal in the first place, but that's just ridiculously strange.

Mii specials are different from customs, so I'm not discussing Miis in this post.

Why do we even ban customs?
What was our reason in the first place?
Again, let's read this post here.
I don't think there ever was a good reason to ban customs. No custom is game-breaking. No custom is so overpowered it can't be counter picked. Yes, even the infamous Skull Bash isn't invincible..
We should move on soon to legalizing customs, I think. It'd be best for Smash 4's meta, however, the problem is there are people who will whine about it, and then people will say it's 'dividing the game'. It's unfortunate that such people are taken into consideration at all, that is, people who make no argument but just complain, but I digress.
If some custom moves are considered and agreed generally to be too overpowered or broken, then there's no reason we can't ban them. Removing all of them however.. Still, I disagree with banning any custom, but it wouldn't be up to me, it would be up to experts like the backroomers, which is a good thing.

EVO makes a good base for this, at least.. I'll pick up there and then..

I think I'll look into this in depth..

 

I really don't want to do this all over again like the Gimr Thread. Imma just say that Miis are like characters you create in RPGs. You have to create the miis with the skills you want. Body physique can be set to average, I don't care to debate about that. The community can at least come up with the optimized sets to be placed in tournaments and only those will be allowed. 3 optimal sets for each Mii for instance. That would at least be a compromise between both extremes. All the tourney organizers have to do is make sure those optimized setups are on each...set up before the tourney starts and that would save time that would be used up in between matches.

All I'm saying is that Mii fighters are created characters, not just "3" slots. They are characters made with three class choices and different special moves to start out with. Each set for each class is like having a semi clone character. That's it. They would be more differentiated if they were different sizes, but I digress. I won't argue about sizes, I just believe at least standard size should be used.

 

All I'm saying is that Mii fighters are created characters, not just "3" slots. They are characters made with three class choices and different special moves to start out with

I feel like all I'm doing is just hitting that like button on your posts. Seriously though this sums it up and it is a FACT not an opinion. I am surprised people can't see it.

 

StripedNinja
Oh, so basically you're just really bad at explaining your arguments. My bad, I can understand that. (to be clear, no, this is not sarcasm).

I apologize for being a little harsh in tone, I could have explained it more civilly. I admit I was a little fed up with all of these people coming up with poor excuses to unfairly ban someone's character.



Now to address your actual argument, now that I grasp it, you inexplicably put "Mii specials take time to choose" (even though this argument is already proven debunk, as an aside, an additional 30 seconds here and there means absolutely nothing), to lead into "we should allow all customs"

What I don't understand about your logic is how "takes time" = "allowing all customs" I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me.

Now I've gone over this a few times. I THINK what you mean is "giving players additional time to choose Mii specials" = "making an unfair exception for Miis" therefore "we should just make all customs legal so no one feels left out" even though this isn't the problem.

I think your whole argument against Miis is based on the idea that "it would be giving them special treatment" and you feel that this would be "unfair". Am I correct?

If this is the case, though it may not be, you are looking at the entire issue from an entirely wrong perspective. Which clears things up, to be honest.

It would not be unfair to any other character, because you are not doing the same thing to Miis as you could be to others. You are banning the other characters from using custom moves. On the other hand, with Mii Fighters, you are banning some whole characters, as they play sometimes drastically different based on the moveset chosen.
Mii specials are NOT custom moves. So they are obviously treated differently than custom moves.
This has already been proven multiple times by the game itself, from allowing them when customs are off, to allowing them in a seperate case in another mode.

Please, prove to me how they are customs, other than "They're in the same menu screen".
They also have their own option in the menu, separate from customizing fighters, let me remind everyone. (Yet more evidence that Mii specials are quite a different thing than custom moves). So that's out.

Prove to me how they are customs, or stop acting as if they are. I will respect your opinion, but I won't respect something made-up based on nothing. That's unreasonable.

I'll say it again, Mii specials are not custom moves. They are not "alternate versions of a move" they are completely different moves.

If we ban customs, we ban slightly changed moves. If we ban Mii specials, we ban characters.

So again, you're not making any sense when you say it's unfair. It's unfair to ban characters for no reason, wouldn't you say?

Sorry if I miscommunicated, we're all doing our best to communicate, but you did misquote me so I think the issue isn't 100% on my end. I wasn't actually talking to you when you responded to me so I don't know how I could have tried to explain it in a way YOU can understand just because you decide to jump in to a discussion in the middle. The only possible solution to this since I have no idea where youre coming from jumping into the conversation is to ask questions instead of making assumptions so I can fully explain myself. That's an option you always have if you don't have enough details to understand, I will always provide them as requested. And when I did get a chance to defend myself, you understood my arguments, for the most part, and you were able to make a more cohesive argument against me instead of making long paragraphs against arguments I actually wasn't making. When we all work together to have a productive discussion everyone wins.

Here's why you think Mii customs are NOT custom moves from what I understand:

They are more unique.
They have a special menu.
They are already unlocked.

To address the first argument while they LOOK unique, the vast majority of custom moves, while visually and conceptually very similar to the original moves, change the strategy of how you use them entirely. They all play unique, so I only consider the "uniqueness" a visual change. You aren't banning whole different characters, you're only banning unique special moves, which is the same with any custom moveset. Yes visually they are very different, but I don't base my competitive ruleset off of visuals, I do it off of how it affects gameplay and tournaments, and Mii customs in my opinion affects those two things the same as any other custom move.
And if you start saying "custom moves that are completely unique should be treated as different than ones that are just variants", then that becomes just as hard to draw the line as saying "let's just ban op customs". You've got characters like Palutena who also have totally visually unique moves and then you have Megaman who has some moves which look totally unique and some that look like variants. You can't draw the line without a level of personal bias, same with banning OP customs, in my opinion. I understand if you think they're so drastically unique that it's clear they should be different, but I just don't share that perspective.

To address the other arguments, with the already unlocked and the unique menus and such, basically what it all amounts to is "the way the game is set up it suggests custom Miis are special and deserve special treatment, so we should treat them special because the game says so".
I don't agree with this ever on any point of ruleset. The game and games preffered style of play will never mean anything to me as far as the competitive metagame goes. The game doesn't want anything to be banned, it wants us to play 2 minutes with items. I don't care what the game says or suggests. The only thing I care about is how something affects tournaments and gameplay, and as far as I'm concerned, custom Miis affect tournaments and gameplay exactly the same as any other custom moveset. Which is why any different treatment to them I see as special treatment.

 

Paragraphs are useful, and break text walls down into digestible bits. They make your text easier to read, which actually counts for a lot in a debate. Please consider them.

 

I feel like all I'm doing is just hitting that like button on your posts. Seriously though this sums it up and it is a FACT not an opinion. I am surprised people can't see it.

 

StripedNinja

You were right, I should have asked questions first. I can now understand where you come from a lot better, and even agree with it in a couple places.

I admit my reasoning was just a little bit off, because I was setting an absurd limit on my ideas.

Having begun taking the time to look at several arguments, watch videos, read threads, test out custom moves themselves, etc, I am of the opinion that we should be warranting the ban of certain custom moves and not simply banning them all outright.

Personally I think that banning all custom moves was an acceptable choice for the current situation. We need some time to consider exactly what customs should be banned. Now, this is coming from a perspective that thinks the community can be civil and thoughtful towards the metagame and it's expansion.

There are obvious problems with custom moves, like many lower tier characters not improving much at all with them on, possible infinites and extremely cheesy customs (but not game-breaking), like the infamous Skull Bash and DK's Cyclone, but these are problems that are overblown in my opinion. Even so, we can simply ban an infinite, as it's perfectly warranted. Fighting games do it all the time.

Moving on to the topic of Mii Fighters: even if customs are banned, I have to disagree with you that it's unfair, as we disagree on the fact that it's somehow agreeing with the game that's the problem. I see it like, for certain people, asking them to play an entirely different character and then falsely dubbing it the same as their main, severely restricting their movesets. You see it as just limiting another custom moveset, somehow.

I disagree that the game is, when it comes to competitive play, wrong on everything simply because it's wrong on a lot of things. That's just a lazy hand wave. Disregarding the fact that Mii Customs are a separate thing that work with customs off just because we disregard so many other things from the game is not a very rational argument.

However, you further argue that Mii specials are the same as every other custom. We disagree, and our differing reasons have been already stated by many others.

I think giving the Mii Fighters a couple of preset moveset options would be the best solution, and I hope it goes forward. However, the beauty of Smash is that it's played by many, many different people, and even if Mii Fighters somehow have their moveset restricted in the competitive scene, while a tragic thing, doesn't stop them from being used in friendlies and casual play -- where Mii Fighters are used the most anyway -- which is what Smash was made for in the first place. At least they'll still have a massive scene to be used in, so it wouldn't be all bad.

The real loss would be the abandoning of a giant piece of the metagame, as well as dissing and restricting Mii mains, a terrible blow to the unity of the community.

It'll be interesting to see the competitive scene's future, though, regardless.

 

I also recommend reading this post, the reasoning is different but it reaches the same conclusion. In addition, it comes from the perspective of being anti-mii and then trading off.

 

StripedNinja

You were right, I should have asked questions first. I can now understand where you come from a lot better, and even agree with it in a couple places.

I admit my reasoning was just a little bit off, because I was setting an absurd limit on my ideas.

Having begun taking the time to look at several arguments, watch videos, read threads, test out custom moves themselves, etc, I am of the opinion that we should be warranting the ban of certain custom moves and not simply banning them all outright.

Personally I think that banning all custom moves was an acceptable choice for the current situation. We need some time to consider exactly what customs should be banned. Now, this is coming from a perspective that thinks the community can be civil and thoughtful towards the metagame and it's expansion.

There are obvious problems with custom moves, like many lower tier characters not improving much at all with them on, possible infinites and extremely cheesy customs (but not game-breaking), like the infamous Skull Bash and DK's Cyclone, but these are problems that are overblown in my opinion. Even so, we can simply ban an infinite, as it's perfectly warranted. Fighting games do it all the time.

Moving on to the topic of Mii Fighters: even if customs are banned, I have to disagree with you that it's unfair, as we disagree on the fact that it's somehow agreeing with the game that's the problem. I see it like, for certain people, asking them to play an entirely different character and then falsely dubbing it the same as their main, severely restricting their movesets. You see it as just limiting another custom moveset, somehow.

I disagree that the game is, when it comes to competitive play, wrong on everything simply because it's wrong on a lot of things. That's just a lazy hand wave. Disregarding the fact that Mii Customs are a separate thing that work with customs off just because we disregard so many other things from the game is not a very rational argument.

However, you further argue that Mii specials are the same as every other custom. We disagree, and our differing reasons have been already stated by many others.

I think giving the Mii Fighters a couple of preset moveset options would be the best solution, and I hope it goes forward. However, the beauty of Smash is that it's played by many, many different people, and even if Mii Fighters somehow have their moveset restricted in the competitive scene, while a tragic thing, doesn't stop them from being used in friendlies and casual play -- where Mii Fighters are used the most anyway -- which is what Smash was made for in the first place. At least they'll still have a massive scene to be used in, so it wouldn't be all bad.

The real loss would be the abandoning of a giant piece of the metagame, as well as dissing and restricting Mii mains, a terrible blow to the unity of the community.

It'll be interesting to see the competitive scene's future, though, regardless.

That's all pretty interesting perspective, my biggest issue with that would be I just don't see how the community would ever come to an agreement on what customs to ban. But maybe eventually things will change.

I don't think the game is wrong on everything necessarily, I just really don't care to look at it for competitive input, I will always prefer arguments and discussion from the community over what Sakurai suggests since Sakurai isn't out to make a competitive game.

Overall I've always had pretty simple tastes. I like my burger with cheese, my sandwiches with PB and J, and my Smash games with no customs, no complications. But I understand why people want to put as few limits on the game as possible, Im just not as liberal with my preferred ruleset. But I can still enjoy a sandwich with 10 different toppings and I'll still enjoy Smash no matter what the community decides as far as customs and Miis go so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Overall I've always had pretty simple tastes. I like my burger with cheese, my sandwiches with PB and J, and my Smash games with no customs, no complications.

LOL